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Guest RivieraBear

Tom:

They'll do that as soon as the California Highway Patrol sees the stamped chassis number on the car. Really like the Facebook story of the 65's rebuild. Looks like a lot of fun.post-51448-143139161698_thumb.jpg

Colin

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Guest rsmalling
Starting ripping the engine apart to make sure its worth my time shipping to my son for rebuild. So far so good

Where have I seen that face before!

Chris,

It looks pretty clean inside. Awesome engines!

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Got the heads off today. The engine is as good as the rest of the car. The engine actually still had some coolant on the drivers side bank. There is no corrosion in the block or heads. The car was obviously running rich, but it turns smoothly, no scoring in the cylinders. Only issue is its been bored about .040 already. Once I get it to my son they will be able to check wall thickness and we'll see where we really are. Right now its a 408, so we have room to play with we think since the 425 comes from the same blocks. The website is updated with more pics as well. Welcome to the Home of Ali'N'I

IMG_1036.JPG

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well I havent done alot over the past two weeks but I have made progress. I'm currently at 61 hours of work so far. I had to spend about and hour cleaning the garage floor. I have the engine and trans all unbolted and attached to the hoist. Tomorrow a buddy is coming over to help get it off the frame and disconnect the two major components. We may get the engine crated and ready for shipment, but it wont actually go til later this month. Nothing really cool to take pictures of, spending alot of time cleaning the frame. The stuff is either 1/2 inch thick tar or 1 inch thick dried caked dirt. I'm scraping and chiselling. But we're getting there.

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Only issue is its been bored about .040 already. Once I get it to my son they will be able to check wall thickness and we'll see where we really are. Right now its a 408, so we have room to play with we think since the 425 comes from the same blocks.

Even though the 401 and the 425 used the same casting numberss, there's not enough meat in the walls to turn a 401 into a 425. It takes a 0.125 over bore to get that. Your walls are not that thick. Most of the guys I know who are running 0.060 over bores on their nailheads have some overheating issues. I think that after you've done a sonic check, you'll find that you MAY have another 0.020 to play with which would give you maximum overbore of 0.060 and 413 cubic inches. Not trying to burst any bubbles here but before ordering any pistons, you'll want to make sure.

Here's part of an article written by Darwin Falk, Trustee and Tech advisor for the ROA, on the identification of a 425. Pay particular attention to the statement I've highlighted in the article.

Sometimes, the codes have been found to be missing or incorrect. Sometimes the casting number can be either a 401 or a 425. How can you tell which it is!

Well, finally some answers on this topic instead of more questions... We had 2 owners of '66s that had MT code engines... an incongruity that needed explaining. Were these mismarked 425s, or 401s that shouldn't be in the car? The engine stamping/markings were almost certainly factory correct in appearance.

I bundled up all the information accumulated on this topic and mailed it off to Denny Manner, the absolute expert on all things related to Buick engine manufacturing. His reply follows (what's in quotes is his direct words, the rest is my understanding/ communication of it).

I was pretty sure that this bump (per talking with Denny back in '95) indicated a 425, but wanted to be sure. (For frame off reference, this is a closeup of the area right next to the transmission housing on the driver side, towards the top of the engine. You can see the back of the valve covers in the photo...

Denny confirms that the 'casting rectangle unique to 425 blocks was there to identify in the machining line that it was a 425 casting for larger bore. The locator was used for the boring equipment to automatically adjust for the larger bore'. 'The rectangle measures about 9/16" by 1"'. Denny pointed to the little J or L hook part at the top and said that part is an insignificant 'boss'... it's the taller part lower down that was used by the machine...

This makes sense to me now. I can easily imagine a boring machine that has a feeler on it to check for the casting bump... and then the machine using that to determine what the bore size is. Pretty slick. Therefore, one must conclude that if the block went down this normal machining production line, it would've automatically been bored for 425.

Denny further states that his 1966 has a block casting number of 1364704. He said it's possible that there could've been other casting numbers in previous years. He reminds us that 'the service/parts books do not list the casting number... it would list a machined block ready for assembly or service repair that a dealer could order'.

Denny further states '401 and 425 castings were different- the cylinder wall castings were in different locations adjusted for the bore size'.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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Everything I read and people I have spoken to has said 060 is very easy and useable on the 401. My son will do the sonic check on the block once he gets it and we have both agreed keeping the 040 over is perfectly fine with out plans. We want to keep the engine as streetable as possible but still pushing the limits to squeeze what we can out of it. There is a happy medium....we're gonna find it :) I do know that the staff at the school is eager to see the nailhead, they arent used to a unique engine like this. they teach typical Chevy/Ford small/big block primarily with NASCAR/NHRA power applications

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Spent about 3.5 hours cleaning the frame today. It looks more like a car frame then a petrified lump of something. I have removed about a 5 gallon bucket of dirt from the car since I started. Soon the dirt will end and the new stuff will start getting ordered.

For the record, I found a second serial number on the frame IN THE BACK. Its between the last two body bolts on along the drivers side on top.

post-86247-143139204678_thumb.jpg

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  • 4 weeks later...

I havent fallen off the face of the earth, just nothing worth taking pics of to really update. Been spending the past weeks cleaning the frame. I have the rear axle and suspension pieces removed. Still need to break down the front suspension but all in all its coming along. The frame has been cleaning up nice with just some wire brush and emery cloth work. I ordered some rust encapsulation and paint from Eastwood which should be here next week. By This time next week I should be dirt free finally and handling clean parts as we turn to assembly.

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With a little fiddling I was able to use the spring compressor I bought to get the drivers side suspension apart today. Took about 3 hours, I still have to remove the control arms, but the steering is apart. It doesnt help that its an archeology dig to get to the nuts.

post-86247-14313924507_thumb.jpg

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Mines all sand, but its hard as a rock. The wire brush gets laughed at. I have to use a small flat tip screw driver and a paint scraper to really scrape it off. Ive removed about 10 dust pans full of stuff so far and still have the passenger side suspension to do and remove the underside of the frame.

Oh and drag the frame out side so I can tip it up and dump out the stuff thats INSIDE.

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For the record, I found a second serial number on the frame IN THE BACK. Its between the last two body bolts on along the drivers side on top.

Ok that confirms the two 65 frame VINs are in the same general area as the 66s. Thanks for posting

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Rinsed out the frame today, alot of sand and silt removed and a bunch of rocks. I cleaned my garage floor (it needed it) and then brought the frame back in the garage. Final round of cleaning over the next few days and paint next week. Engine got picked up by the shipping company, so its on the road to Houston to get built by my son at school. A few instructors are curious to see what they can do to a nailhead, none of them have ever worked one before.

p.s. updated the website www.teamalini.com

Edited by alini
added post script comment (see edit history)
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Rinsed out the frame today, alot of sand and silt removed and a bunch of rocks. I cleaned my garage floor (it needed it) and then brought the frame back in the garage. Final round of cleaning over the next few days and paint next week. Engine got picked up by the shipping company, so its on the road to Houston to get built by my son at school. A few instructors are curious to see what they can do to a nailhead, none of them have ever worked one before.

p.s. updated the website www.teamalini.com

Never seen a Nailhead before and your going to let them rebuild it to some NASCAR specs ....LOL.... and your gonna race Rob to the finish line on the resto.... sorry man ... it aint easy ....but you have to be real.....dont paint your frame unless you get it blasted cause regardless of how much hot water and chemicals you pour on it you will never get any paint to stick for the long run.....I did my first frame up / off when I was 18 in the early 80 's and have done 5 since and have learned that you can't cut corners, it always shows up in 6 months and you will hate yourself... My 12 year old basically took my 65 Riv apart ...THATS THE EASY PART....he is a tool handling prodigy if I do say so myself ...but it has taken at least 15 super talented NON 12 year

old individuals in there own respective line of expertise to HELP me put the car back together...THESE CARS ARE LAYERS UPON LAYERS WHEN IT COMES TIME TO REASSEMBLE...i guess what Iam getting at is if your in a rush on a Riv and dont listen to the old experts on this forum or other nailhead forums you will be up for a big letdown...and if you wanna go REAL fast put a Kenne Bell on your Camaro .....the Riv is meant to be seen not heard.....:rolleyes:

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Not sure where you are getting your info from. From post #21 in this thread "The engine if useable will be sent to my son who is a student at the School for Automotive Machinists. As part of his education he will be doing a full rebuild of the engine, to include port and polish the head with flow bench to ensure its the same across the board. Our goal is a streetable 400hp/500lbs 401 engine. But first to make sure we can use the engine." The SCHOOL builds engines to NASCAR spec, because thats what they teach. Since they dont typically deal with Nailheads and my kid needs an engine to rebuild....just to show technical understanding of some techniques, I sent the nailhead to them. At no time did I imply I was looking for them to build it to NASCAR Specs.

If you read my post to Rob correctly (where I closed with 'Just kidding') and if you understood the relationship I have created with Rob, you would know I was kidding. No respectful car builder would rush a rebuild.

If you asked me about the frame...I was rinsing the dirt out of the frame. if you have been following the thread you would know that this car was riddled with dust and dirt everywhere....including INSIDE the frame. So I pulled it outside so I could run water through it and clear the dirt. This was by no means my last step before painting.

I appreciate you spending the time about how great you and your 12 year olds mechanical ability is, but you dont know me or my ability. Thanks for stopping by and enjoy the show ;)

p.s. the Camaro is 1 of 500, it will get no modifications...except the emblem change I made already.

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Not sure where you are getting your info from. From post #21 in this thread "The engine if useable will be sent to my son who is a student at the School for Automotive Machinists. As part of his education he will be doing a full rebuild of the engine, to include port and polish the head with flow bench to ensure its the same across the board. Our goal is a streetable 400hp/500lbs 401 engine. But first to make sure we can use the engine." The SCHOOL builds engines to NASCAR spec, because thats what they teach. Since they dont typically deal with Nailheads and my kid needs an engine to rebuild....just to show technical understanding of some techniques, I sent the nailhead to them. At no time did I imply I was looking for them to build it to NASCAR Specs.

If you read my post to Rob correctly (where I closed with 'Just kidding') and if you understood the relationship I have created with Rob, you would know I was kidding. No respectful car builder would rush a rebuild.

If you asked me about the frame...I was rinsing the dirt out of the frame. if you have been following the thread you would know that this car was riddled with dust and dirt everywhere....including INSIDE the frame. So I pulled it outside so I could run water through it and clear the dirt. This was by no means my last step before painting.

I appreciate you spending the time about how great you and your 12 year olds mechanical ability is, but you dont know me or my ability. Thanks for stopping by and enjoy the show ;)

p.s. the Camaro is 1 of 500, it will get no modifications...except the emblem change I made already.

There are alot of us "watching the show"

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After a little delivery snafu on the part of the shipping company. The Engine has arrived in Houston. The Students helped unpacked it. Now their fun begins. They will be using it as a visual training aide and the head class will be looking it over to review how restrictive the design is. They will take the next few months as they dig in, teach/learn and do some mild machine work to rebuild it. I'll be getting a full break down of condition of parts in the next few days as they actually disaamble it and measure all the journals and cylinders.

My son said alot of students were very inquisitive as they looked things over. Its not a small block chevy or ford, so they should all learn alot from this.

FOR THE RECORD, I have supplied them with every link of information I have found and been provided about the nailhead and the valve seats and guides and I have been on the phone with the staff so they are fully aware of my expectations so they dont over do it.....before I get bashed again

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After a little delivery snafu on the part of the shipping company. The Engine has arrived in Houston. The Students helped unpacked it. Now their fun begins. They will be using it as a visual training aide and the head class will be looking it over to review how restrictive the design is. They will take the next few months as they dig in, teach/learn and do some mild machine work to rebuild it. I'll be getting a full break down of condition of parts in the next few days as they actually disaamble it and measure all the journals and cylinders.

My son said alot of students were very inquisitive as they looked things over. Its not a small block chevy or ford, so they should all learn alot from this.

FOR THE RECORD, I have supplied them with every link of information I have found and been provided about the nailhead and the valve seats and guides and I have been on the phone with the staff so they are fully aware of my expectations so they dont over do it.....before I get bashed again

Glad to hear the engine arrived safe. I'd advise giving Tom Telesco a call and talk to him about what he reccomends in regards to making the nailhead breathe better. He's a supper nice guy to talk with, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind talking to you. He can give you invaluable information that you can pass on to your son and the school.

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If the school would talk to and listen to Tom T. and/or Russ Martin, we could have a whole new generation of nailhead rebuilders. Chris, in one of your previous posts, you mentioned that you'd sent the school some things to read through. Was one of them the tech article written by Russ Martin? If not, it's available on his website. The attached is just one of the articles he's put on his website for public information. If you look at the entire website there's a "Tech Info" tab with tons of more information.

Nailing Down the Buick Nailhead |

Ed

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Been a while since I posted, but lately we have knocked alot out with my son home from school for the holidays. Got the frame painted and the front suspension pieces cleaned and painted. New ball joints, 2 inch drop springs, new bushings all installed. Ordering brake pieces tomorrow and hopefully get them done before he heads back. Its nice to finally put something together, rather than apart.

post-86247-143139310479_thumb.jpg

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Guest Steeleco

Hey Chris N,

How is the Engine rebuild going? Do I remember correctly you sent it to your son's school as an Educational-rebuild?

Thanks

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The engine is torn down completely, everything looks good. The valve springs have all been checked and all within a few pounds of each other, the valves and seats all look good as well as the guides, so apart from the angle valve job nothing is needed there. The crank mic checks good, never been cut. The cylinders we knew were bored 40 over, he still needs to make sure they are straight. He was cleaning the parts when he left to come home. They are going to flow bench the heads and see where they can improve on them. We should be okay with reusing the bottom end as is, just re-ring and bearing it.

The cam looked good, but we plan on swapping it out and we need to see if we can replace the plastic timing gears. They look good, but metal would be prefered.

The valve springs have them puzzled, they have never seen a valve spring so weak before, but they are within book value.You can compress them with your fingers. This is not ideal because it can lead to alot of valve float at higher RPMs, so we may be upgrading them.

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Nail Head Valve springs are soft, that is normal. A 401 is not a high reving engine, so I'd stick with the stock style valve springs. With these motors, it's all about the torque down low in the rev range.

Good to see you are making progress. Keep at it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here are some pics of before and after. Keep in mind I'm considering this a rebuild, not a restoration. So if parts are still useable I am reusing them, so things like the bump stop are still showing their wear, but its in good shape otherwise. But I think its a 10000% better than when I started. Brake drums got dropped off at the media blaster today, previous owner painted them. Brakes are rebuilt, front suspension is done, steering to be done this weekend. Then move on to Axle and Transmission. My son has the engine hot tanked and getting ready to start machine work.

post-86247-143139332061_thumb.jpg

post-86247-143139332063_thumb.jpg

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  • 6 months later...
Guest RivieraBear

After way too much procrastination and a few days under the car when it was on blocks scraping 50 years of oil and road dirt off the top rail of the frame on the driver's side and finding nothing, I spent 20 minutes on the passenger side and found the 'hidden' chassis/VIN number. If it hadn't been for you guys, I wouldn't have known where to start to look, so thank you!

Colin

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  • 5 months later...

Started body work this week. Been doing alot of research though Eastwood and after a few hours of studying we made the command decision to press with doing it all ourselves. The body is straight, there are only a few areas of concern, no rust just dents. Staying with out budget plan we are stripping the paint by hand (and power tools). Spent the morning updating our website (link in my sig), here is a teaser pic.

IMG_2565.JPG

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http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-EpoxyShield-2-gal-Gray-High-Gloss-2-Part-Epoxy-Garage-Floor-Coating-Kit-251870/100671422#

Be suggestion I can give ya. TWO COATS of paint. We painted it in sections and added th sprinkles as we went. We missed a few small spots and once we put the clear coat down they stood out. And Use the clear coat, if not the paint is porous and not easy to clean. The clear coat I just mop the floor.

edit, BTW I havent mopped the floor since I started the car project 18 months ago.

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Website pix look awesome! Thx for posting. I still have some rust repair to deal with on my floors before I strip & paint the undercarriage. Do u mind posting what steps u took that made taking the old undercoating off easier & what u did for paint prep (ie sanding or wire wheel)? How many cans of the Eastwood Rust Encapsulator did u need for the job?

Thx

David

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I removed the undercoating around the tranny tunnel using a heat gun and paint scraper, came right off. I wire brushed and scuff sanded the entire underside by hand. I applied one coat of Eastwoods Rust encapsulating paint by brush (a little less than a can did the job). I top coated that with Eastwood underhood black (by spray can). I DID NOT Strip the wheel wells, I simply cleaned them with a stiff brush and blasted a new coat of undercoating in each wheel well, to clean up what was there and cover some cracked/missing areas. I felt thats an area that takes abuse and simple paint wouldnt be durable with the dusty driving conditions we get out here in Vegas.

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