Sign in to follow this  
winfield

Yet another new member

Recommended Posts

Hi Campers,

After being imprinted at a young age by my uncle's Riv I finally bought my first. It took 46 years, but I finally have one. Jeez, talk about delayed gratification.

She's a numbers matching '64 dual quad, w/ the optional white interior and coral mist paint that seems to be a very nice driver. I've already named her "Pearl" and am awaiting for the arrival of a chassis manual from an eBay purchase this last week.

You'll probably be hearing from me with a boatload of redundant questions. First project is to find the electrical gremlin that blows the 3 amp fuse associated w/ the dashboard lights. Lots to learn about this lady. post-73841-143139077311_thumb.jpg

post-73841-143139077295_thumb.jpg

post-73841-143139077306_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow - thats quite a car! Congratulations and Welcome! Where did you find it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jason. Actually, after looking for some time, I found it here in NJ. I Don't have the history of the car as it was purchased by the previous owner from a dealer in Missouri. Of course that dealer wouldn't share any info. w/me as to the car's history.

We love dealers. Not! I know the car was registered at one point by a gentlemen in Montana but I'm not sure how to document the life of this little lady. If anyone knows how to research Buicks, please share. The VIN of this one is7K1163468. While the intake manifold and carburetors are date coded correct, I can't prove by the letter designation on the front of the engine that the dual quads were factory installed. The stampings are too difficult to read w/ any accuracy. All the other numbers, showing paint code, options, etc. are correct. Long story short, ... Oops, too late for that, I'll be on a fact finding mission I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the strict privacy laws at the state DMVs, the best way to trace the history is stepping back through previous owners so whatever tidbits of info you can beg borrow and steal in that arena is valuable. I'd keep working with that dealer and maybe you get someone who is willing to help. Also look for clues on any old paperwork you may have received with the car. Make sure the person you bought it from has given you everything thing they know when they purchased it.

So you can't see the KX code I presume? Some of those stampings were light. Often with some careful techniques you can make them appear enough to identify them.

What other options does your car have?

By the way there was a stunning restored example of a dual quad coral mist 64 at the Branson MO ROA meet in 2011.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice car. When I first saw pictures of it, I thought it might be the car that Jason referred to from the 2011 ROA meet. It wond best of show that year.

If you got the original owner's manual with the car, you might check the very back page in it. The dealer was supposed to have written down the serial number and code number from the engine etc. into the book. I don't know when Buick began the Protect-o-plate program. It would be an embossed aluminum plate that's in the back of the book. As Jason says just keep looking; things will start to show up.

If you're not sure to where to look for the KW code, here's a link that should help. You're looking for a KW production code. The Illustration shows an MT code. The engine serial number should match your VIN.

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/view.php?pg=indent_engine_where

Just look at the top picture, the text will only make it confusing.

Ed

Edited by RivNut
Post link (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually spoke w/ the gentleman who owns the car that was at the meet in 2011. I wish this was as nice. Perhaps someday. As to the options - It has tilt wheel, A/C, power steering, brakes, antenna, seat, windows, cruise control and an AM radio.

As to the KX code I can see a K but not the X. Unfortunately the original owners manual was not included. I have a manual but not the original. The car has changed hands at least 4 times since 2010. It was bought that year from a dealer in Fl. that cannot be found yet. Then sold to an auction in Palm Springs, perhaps the same year. It was at a dealer in St. Louis and then sold to a man here in NJ. This lady has been around the block a few times. The undercarriage is rust free, painted black and quit clean. There is a new gas tank and fairly new exhaust system. The aluminum finned drums seem in great shape externally. I haven't pulled them off to check the brake shoes but she stops the way you would expect a car from that era to stop. I gave it the magnet test above and below and found very little Bondo. Trunk is solid as well. Lots of projects ahead to make her real pretty, but I'm starting with something pretty solid. More drivel to follow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "X" in the "KX" code may be an inch or two away from the "K"...check the complete surface.

Also, check the casting number on the top of the bellhousing behind the distributor. If the number ends in "704" at least you will know it is a 425.

Tom Mooney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Tom, I'll check that. I'm not too concerned that it's a 425. As far as I know they all were in '64 and the VIN on the engine matches the data plate on the firewall. Question however. I can't find info. in any reference that shows any engine changes i.e. cam, exhaust, etc. that would justify throwing on an extra carburetor. Did the engineers add the dual quad w/o any other mods. Not an engineer or licensed mechanic myself, it seems odd to do this except from a marketing standpoint.

"Hey guys, lets throw some bling into this thing so the salesmen have something to hype." Couldn't we just put a single 4 bbl on this w/ larger secondaries or do we get a better air flow thru the manifold with 2 quads?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's more or less exactly what they did. In '65 with the GS option, you got engine, trnasmission, and rear end as part of the package. The engine had the extra carburetor and a distributor with a different curve - it was timed at 12* instead of 2-1/2*. The transmisson had a different vavle body - firmer shifts and higher shift points, and the rear end was a 3.42 positraction. In '65 the transmission had evolved to a TH400 (Buick called it a Super Turbine 400) with a variable pitch torque converter.

In '64, the engine is the same, but I'm sure there was only one code for all '64 Riviera transmissions - first year for the ST400, but it's different than the 65 trans. I don't know about the rear end gearing or whether positract came with the engine package. As far as I know it was only the extra carb and the distributor.

It's going to take some digging so I'll post it later, but I have a chart that shows what cams were used with which engines. If I remember correctly, the cam for the dual quad engine is basically the same cam that was used in the original 401 back in '59, but it's advanced 4* at the crank. Otherwise, lobe centers, lift, and duration are all the same.

To answer your question, at least in my opinion, 'yeah' it's all "bling". Hence the cast aluminum valve covers and the dual snorkle breather to go along with the extra carb. More eye candy to go with the extra carb.

I know a guy in Colorado who had two identical '66 Riviera GS's. Only difference, the sinlge four barrel carb in '66 was a 750 cfm Rochester Quadrajet rather than the 625 cfm Carter AFB. That Q-jet engine was rated at the same 340 hp as the AFB engine. However, the guy in Colorado says his Q-jet car is "quicker" in a quarter mile, but the dual four barrel car was "faster." The Q-jet was pretty much exhausted but the dual fours was still pulling hard. Given another 1/8th of a mile and the dual four car would have left the dQ-jet car behind.

I'll start digging for the cam specs.

Ed

Nailhead Cam Specs.PDF

Edited by RivNut
Add cam specs (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are the cam specs. There was only a 2* difference in the original 59 - 61 401 cam and the 64 dual four barrel carb 425. Be sure you read the text as well as looking at the specs. Dennis Manner helped design this engine and he's still a member of the ROA. Good stuff from him

[ATTACH]143783[/ATTACH]

Ed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Winfield,

It is correct the dual 4 engine had the same cam as the single 4 engine. But in theory the engine is an air pump so any improvement in the breathing capacity can represent an increase in power with no other changes. Buick did substantially change the ignition timing, both initial and the advance curve, so they did add to the extra breathing capacity with that change. Buick claimed an extra 20 HP in their advertised rating.

Buick did equip the dual 4 engine with a unique trans as opposed to the standard single 4 engine. The code on your trans should be "BQ". The code for the standard trans is "BN".

Buick did just as you referenced in `66 when they added the spreadbore Quadrajet carb to the Nailhead. The theory behind the spreadbore was to keep the primary barrels small for better low end performance and driveability and bring on the breathing capacity with huge secondary barrels. I dont have the cfm capacity of the first Quadrajet committed to memory but I`m sure it represented an increase over the standard AFB or 4GC carb. In `64 Buick doubled up on the AFB`s to acheive the same results. Hope this helps,

Tom Mooney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beautiful car! It's amazing the marketing behind the cars. Was it the same as the '50s dual quad cars? Most were not hyper performance cars, most were on luxury cars. I think '65 GS's had a bigger exhaust at least.

Also, is your '74 a 2.0 or a six? I used to own a '74 triple black 2.0 SE. I loved that car - was totaled three times. I let it go after the third one - then I saw it on the road again! Great combo of enthusiast cars.

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Buick did equip the dual 4 engine with a unique trans as opposed to the standard single 4 engine. The code on your trans should be "BQ". The code for the standard trans is "BN". Tom Mooney

Mine is the other '64 KX car mentioned earlier in this thread. It is equipped with the 3.07 posi rear-end. I believe Tom can confirm that most (if not all) of the factory dual quad cars from '64 had this set up...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, thanks for all the info. guys. As to my 914 - It's a 2.0L 4 w/ 44mm Webers, a lightened flywheel, stiffer valve springs, headers and the trans has been modified so 5th gear is closer to 4th. Gives up a little in the top end, but I get there quicker. It has 911 Carrera brakes, stiffer springs and torsion bars, a full roll cage, 5pt harnesses, reverse lockout, an accusump , an oil cooler, Weltmeister, F & R adj. sway bars and it usually runs on 205 50ZR 15 Toyos on 7" rims at the track. The rear fenders were rolled to accomodate the extra 1 1/2" wider tires. I know this is a Buick forum, but since you asked....post-73841-14313908111_thumb.jpg I promise I won't contaminate this thread any further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a link from our good friends over at TeamBuick.com

It shows all of the transmission codes for the ST400 (TH400) transmissions that were used by Buick starting in '64 and moving forward for a few years.

I'm going out on a limb here and hopefully, if I'm wrong here, someone will straighten me out. I know that the Trans for the '65 and later Gran Sports had a different valve body in it so it has a different code. On all the others, I'm guessing that the code has to do with either 1) the placement of the shifter, or 2) the rear end gear ratio. Any other theories?

Ed

1975 Buick Chassis Service Manual, All Series

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Al,

The handful of original `64 dual 4 cars I have personally inspected over the years have all had the 3:07 posi gears. But I`m very sure any available gear ratio could have been specified at the time of purchase. As a matter of fact, I am surprised I have not found at least one or two cars with towing gears.

Ed,

The variables you mentioned and more can be attributed to the varying codes. But in this case, as supported by the chart you linked (and Buick lit in addition to personal inspection), the only variable specified between the standard trans and the "BQ" trans is the dual 4 carb...both console shift and no reference to rear end gears.

Tom Mooney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom,

My thinking was that each code might be something as small as the drive gear for the speedometer cable or the piece of shift linkage that is needed for a console or column shift. Then when you look at the carb situation, it could be as much as a difference in the valve body. However, I can't figure why there would be a difference between a 425 and a 401 with a single carb and a floor shift. I think that for whatever reason, in some instances the Rivieras had a different rear axle ratio. I'm speculating here, and I know that you're going on your personal knowledge of what you've actually seen. I appreciate the info.

Ed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this