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ETHANOL

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A few nights ago, I attended a local AACA "cruz". Standing around talking, the conversation turned to ethanol/gas.

One fellow said the only ethanol free gas was CITCO. I find this hard to believe. As I thought most major brands all contained ethanol. Is anyone familiar with this? True? or was he talking thru the poverbial hat? I live in southern New Jersey.

Thanks.............:eek:

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:mad: I don;t know the ans. to your question, but look out for 2013, win lose or draw I think Obama will shove e15 down our throut.

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I believe they just ended many of the subsidies on ethanol. With any luck it will disappear.

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The subsidies might have ended, but the EPA seems oblivious to that fact. Ethanol can be made from vegetation other than corn. UNTIL the original Bush-era legislation mandating how many gallons of ethanol must be added to gasoline each year is deactivated OR other similar legislation is stalled, we'll have ethanol in gasoline (at least E10) for a good while into the future.

From what I've read, IF the economy hadn't tanked AND people stopped buying larger vehicles AND now don't drive as much as we did in the earlier 2000s (when the legislation was formulated), then we wouldn't be needing E15+ to meet the mandates. To me, the whole issue of ethanol decreasing the foreigh oil imports, via "renewable fuel sources", hasn't really been accurate. Gasoline inventories have been at record levels (for many months!) due to lack of demand, not use of ethanol in gasoline.

Be that as it may . .

NTX5467

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I posted this in September 2010 on a thread about 15% ethanol. The prices are based on two years ago. I believe you can still get 0% ethanol as you drive across Iowa. My brother lives in Stuart Iowa that has an ethanol plant just west of town. I need to check about the status of the plant. I was filling up at BP stations in Iowa.

----------------------------------------------------

One suggestion is to move to Iowa. They still sell gasoline without ethanol. You can also get 10% and 85% if you want it. Remember, they grow the corn to make ethanol and you can get non ethanol gas. Check out my experience with using 10% ethanol in a car designed to use 10% ethanol.

September 8th, I filled my 3.8 2008 Buick Lucienne in Ohio with 87 Octane (10% ethanol) and drove 450 miles at 70 MPH getting 27.3 MPG. On the return, I filled up in Iowa on September 13th with 87 Octane (zero ethanol) driving 450 miles at 70 MPH and got 31.4 MPG.

In Iowa the ethanol gas was $2.55 a gallon. With no ethanol gas, the price was $2.69. The total cost with ethanol was $42.03 versus $38.55. This was a savings of $3.48. From my experience, I will always skip the ethanol gas additive when given the option.

Edited by huptoy (see edit history)

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I live in Oklahoma and here most Conoco/Phillips and Valero stations have ethonal free gasoline. Most times same price as the 10% ethanol stuff.

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Maine requires ethanol as far as I know, there's no way to escape it unless I find some out of state somewhere. Supposedly there is mom and pop store on the border in Freedom, NH, that sells ethanol free gas but I haven't checked it out. It'd be 2 hours away from me but still might be worth filling my gas cans for the lawnmower and generator.

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You can check the internet for ethanol free gas in your area. I researched with one click. Any gas stations with ethanol free gas in MD can be found on the eastern shore of MD from my finding. Synoco sells ethanol free gas but it is racing fuel.. Just search ethanol free gas in "enter your state" and see what you come up with. Check out pure gas.org

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

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It depends on the state you are in. Illinois, Iowa and Minn. all require ethanol in all gas sold there. Corn growing states you know. There was a list on this forum last year that had a list of each state that had stations that sold non-ethanol gas and what stations. I printed out Wisconsin but if anyone has this site it would be good to post it again here. The more we support ethanol free stations the sooner we may see ethanol go away.

RHL

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This again. :rolleyes:

Citgo's web site claims that they do not use ethanol in areas where oxygenates are not required in gasoline ( CITGO.com, Consumer FAQs ). The problem is that very few of us live in such areas these days, and if you live in an area where Citgo doesn't use oxygenates then chances are many others doesn't either. Also many states (especially in the mid-west) give tax incentives to promote ethanol even in areas where it isn't needed as an oxygenate, which means that a producer has to endure a price disadvantage to stay ethanol-free. Look for the signs, if the gas has ethanol the sign is supposed to be there.

As for the political and chemical paranoia regarding ethanol fuels, read some of the older threads:

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/new-ethanol-information-315644.html

http://forums.aaca.org/f133/important-ethanol-message-289618.html

http://forums.aaca.org/f120/found-online-list-stations-selling-ethanol-295701.html

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/found-online-list-stations-selling-ethanol-295700.html

(Note that the last 2 seriously call into question the efficacy of those online lists of "ethanol free gas stations".)

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I do not live in an area that requires oxygenates, but the fuel terminal that services this area is located in one. Ergo, that terminal adds ethanol to ALL the tankers before they leave, no matter their destination. I have no choice. Every gas pump supplied from Greensboro is marked may contain up to 10% ethanol.

I have said it before and will repeat it. Ethanol is not the savior a lot of "interested" parties preaching its gospel would have you believe it is. It is less efficient, it damages fuel systems not expressly designed for it and I am convinced that before it's over it will be proven to be at least as hazardous as MTBE was.

I don't consider concern about it to be paranoia. I do consider forced use of it utter BS and will be glad when both ethanol and the political buffoons who have forced it on us are long gone. Irreparable damage will have been done long before that happens.

You just thought Big Tobacco was bad. Big Corn is worse.

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I do not live in an area that requires oxygenates, but the fuel terminal that services this area is located in one. Ergo, that terminal adds ethanol to ALL the tankers before they leave, no matter their destination. I have no choice. Every gas pump supplied from Greensboro is marked may contain up to 10% ethanol.

I have said it before and will repeat it. Ethanol is not the savior a lot of "interested" parties preaching its gospel would have you believe it is. It is less efficient, it damages fuel systems not expressly designed for it and I am convinced that before it's over it will be proven to be at least as hazardous as MTBE was.

I don't consider concern about it to be paranoia. I do consider forced use of it utter BS and will be glad when both ethanol and the political buffoons who have forced it on us are long gone. Irreparable damage will have been done long before that happens.

You just thought Big Tobacco was bad. Big Corn is worse.

The benefits of ethanol do not outweigh the problems created by ethanol. Not just in cars either. The 'carbon' footprint to create a gallon of ethanol is astronomical compared to what it is supposed to help as far as emissions. I liken ethanol as helping reduce emissions like I do with the phrase "clean diesel". Diesel might be clean on emissions but take a look at particulate matter at the tailpipe. It is not clean.

Sadly the industry should start looking at turbine engines that run on alcohol. Chrysler did back in the late 50's early 60's. They had a turbine car. Imagine if you would fermenting your own grain alcohol to fill the family car? Not to mention the grain alcohol itself for, should we say, medicinal purposes. :)

250px-Chrysler_027.jpg

1963%20Chrysler%20Turbine-10.jpg

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Back to the Turbine, wouldn't it run on just about any fuel you gave it? Turbine-engine helicopters run on Jet A or similar, and the gas turbine-generator we had at work ran off #2 fuel oil.

The problems of alcohol corrosion on critical tolerance parts would still exist though, so not sure how suitable alcohol fuels would be for it. There's the issue of fuel consumption too- gas turbines are thirsty.

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The turbine can run off a bottle of perfume. There is a company that is working on a small turbine that runs a charging unit in the vehicle. The car runs on electric but the turbine provides the power to charge the battery.

The turbine was getting the same gas mileage as the standard combustion engine of the time. The turbine was driven with a standard car with it. The mileage was equal. Today technology I'm thinking it could do much better.

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With regard to the original question, my understanding is it has more to do with what EPA air quality zone in which you live, or some such. So, you're in southern Jersey -- I'm in southeastern PA. Philadelphia and the area around it falls into a more heavily regulated zone, therefore all stations are required to sell it. Hence, that is why it's more commonly found in-and-around high population centers. You used to be able to go out to Lancaster county and find several stations selling ethanol-free gas, but it seems to be disappearing, I think mainly because local jobbers having to supply it here aren't going to stock a separate blend for different areas.

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I think one reasons Chyrsler axed the turbine car was that it emitted too much nitrogen oxide and with smog legislation looming they didn't think the cars would past government emissions standards.

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EPA requiring different fuel blends for different areas complicates things even more. As in the Piedmont Triad area of NC is required to use ethanol to meet their AQ standards. But, their fuel terminals service a lot of outlying areas that do not require that same blend. My area falls into that category. They blend ethanol into every tanker leaving that terminal no matter where it's headed, so any gas station serviced from there gets the same blend the PT gets.

To get non-ethanol fuel, local stations have to get it from Charlotte or Richmond and pay hefty additional transportation charges, so most don't bother. A little convenience store on my way to work has it and sells it out the wazoo, but it's in NC where fuel is already 30 cents more/gal than here in VA due to state taxes. Add in the extra transport charges that get passed to the end consumer and it's hard to justify paying $3.89/gal for it when gas here is at $3.09. I do bite the bullet and buy it for the lawn equipment.

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I believe the main reason that gas turbine cars were not developed was because they were too noisy. I can't remember the designer's name but he is still alive. The prototype gas turbine - fitted to a Rover - is to be found in the British Museum.

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EPA requiring different fuel blends for different areas complicates things even more. As in the Piedmont Triad area of NC is required to use ethanol to meet their AQ standards. But, their fuel terminals service a lot of outlying areas that do not require that same blend. My area falls into that category. They blend ethanol into every tanker leaving that terminal no matter where it's headed, so any gas station serviced from there gets the same blend the PT gets.

To get non-ethanol fuel, local stations have to get it from Charlotte or Richmond and pay hefty additional transportation charges, so most don't bother. A little convenience store on my way to work has it and sells it out the wazoo, but it's in NC where fuel is already 30 cents more/gal than here in VA due to state taxes. Add in the extra transport charges that get passed to the end consumer and it's hard to justify paying $3.89/gal for it when gas here is at $3.09. I do bite the bullet and buy it for the lawn equipment.

A gas station chain here has non-ethanol mid -grade at $4.35 a gallon the last time I looked, but my daily driver Lincoln takes premium.

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