'10 New Magneto Set Up

[1910Hupp]

I've just received the rebuilt DU4 from the rebuilder . Despite the fact that I told him that the Hup had a fixed ignition mag he insists that I will get better performance from a variable ignition mag and has converted it to this . As the previous owner had a variable mag fitted at one stage I have all the linkages and I guess if I don't like it I can always just fix the ignition in the correct positon

Although I have set up the fixed mag sucessfuly several times I just want to check that the I'm setting up the variable mag correctly. The standard wisdom is to set them up on TDC fully retarded. When we set up the fixed mag (Slightly advanced as Bobby intended) we line up TDC on the flywheel with the line to the right of the first mark on the block . Does this first mark donate TDC ? I can't confirm TDC as I can't see the piston via the spark plug hole and can't even get a wire into the cylinder to see it raise up with TDC-However compression on my thumb suggests TDC is pretty close to the first line ??

Thanks for any help Karl

[Max BURKE]

G,day to all and Karl

Put a soap bubble across the hole were you took out the spark plug.Turn the flywheel by hand and watch it TDC wil be revealed. Failing this trick take out the valve access bung and look in with a torch.Sudenly you will see the piston come to the top. While you are about this make sure you are on the comp. stroke, saves changing the plug leads end for end later. Of course its going to run better on variable spark. Why didnt it have it from new, too easy It cost more.While youre mucking about there Karl put your spark plugs over the exhaust valves but not with Edisons or Mica plugs. By the way when you find TDC mark it on the flywheel and lo and behold its already there. If you cant see the flywheel for the fan shroud take your hole saw and make a peephole.Are you coming over for the Hup rally this year in Bundaburg QLD?Usually a group of Kiwis come over led by Ron Osborne with Alf O'S and new boy George Paige. No need to bring your Hup we"ll soon find a ride for you Good luck with your timing and be sure to subscribe to Duncans newsletter

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

[1910Hupp]

Thanks Max

The rally sounds good. When is it? Right now I could do with some Queensland sun!! I just slipped on ice on the bridge I built to my spa garden. I used to get Duncans excellent magazine but my subscription lapsed and I've been to slack to renew it.

Have you got a Model 32? I suspect that will be my next car if I can find a nice one at the right price. I have a picture of my grandfather aged 3 cranking my Great-grandfathers Model 32. The old boy wasn't much of a driver and his passion for distilled beverages didn't help. He had a nasty habit of driving through the back of his garage which the family eventually fixed by making a buffer wall of empty petrol (or benzine as they would have called it) tins . One night when completely off his face he drove the Hup up onto the shop verrandas in the main street of Palmerston North. He destroyed several veranda posts but the Hup apparently was relatively undamaged and he drove it home (and no doubt through the back wall of the garage again) -A well built but long suffering car !

And you thought only Aussies could drink !

Thanks again mate

Karl

[Max BURKE]

G,day to all and Karl

Hup rally sorry ,TOUR is in Bundaburg Qld 21st to 24th September. Email Ian Pearson at ic.pearson@bigpond.com This should let you know who the NZ folk are that are coming over. Yes we have two Hup 32. One we have been using regularly for the last eighteen years. Son John has it and his son Matthew mostly drives it. We have a second Hup 32 about two thirds completed First one is an early 1913 the second is later in 1913.Niether is electric although we have a battery on the running board for the lights.First one is a touring second was a roadster .Hup 32 are built very strong.

Max Burke Nulkaba Australia

[Tom400CFI]

If you haven't found TDC yet, here is another way that is much more precise.

*As Max said, pull a valve access plug.

*Make a pointer out of a coat hanger and bolt it to the cylinder base bolts, then aim it near the flywheel.

*Use a tool (make one out of...another coat hanger or something) that will jam the piston near TDC.

*Get the piston on the compression stroke (as Max said, make sure it's compression and not exhaust), and insert tool, turn engine until it jams the tool.

*Make a precise mark on the FW, right where your pointer is pointing.

*Holding the jaming tool steady so it doesn't move, rotate the engine backward until the piston hits the stop again and jams.

*Mark this, precisely on the FW. You've just made two marks now, both EXACTLY equal distance from TDC.

*Using a good measuring device, measure the distance between the marks. Split it in 1/2, measure that number from either mark toward the other finding precisely the mid point between your two marks, and make another precise mark. Line THAT (the middle mark) up with your pointer and you are at exactly TDC. Basically, it's making a poor-man's degree wheel. Works awesome.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[1910Hupp]

Getting the valve cap off is impossible The biggest wrench I could get in there was useless ! I think I've found TDC I even brought an endoscope to try and look inside the cylinder but even that didn't help much. I think I have it now (based on valve position and compression build up) and it does correspond to the first mark on the cylinder block. So have today installed the magneto retarded on (what I think) is TDC Will fire it up in the next few days -Karl

[1910Hupp]

Ok I've been thinking if the first mark is TDC and we set the fixed ignition to a mark just past that. Then aren't we retarding the spark with this set up. I though Hup designed the car with a slightly advanced spark ?? Karl

[Tom400CFI]

If this part is true...

if the first mark is TDC and we set the fixed ignition to a mark just past that, then aren't we retarding the spark with this set up.

Then it is true, you'd be setting the mag to fire after TDC, which is way too retarded. Herein lies the problem w/finding TDC visually; the FW can rotate sever degrees either way w/no visible movement of the piston. Tough to get accuracy that way. Not impossible, but tough.

Can't you get the valve plugs out w/a monkey wrench?

[1910Hupp]

Nope won't even move with a monkey wrench -I suspect needs heat. However I have it running now and so far looks good . I set it up yesterday and it ran badly but obviously retarded ++ then I realised that the magneto had moved when I was engaging the drive so I set it up again taking more care that the postion of the points was maintained until the gear fully engaged . Runs sweet now !!

[Tom400CFI]

Cool! Nice job!

[trimacar]

I've always thought that there was fixed timing on the Model 20 Hupp for a reason. The cost to add advance/retard in 1909-10 had to be pennies. What about that flywheel in the front, if timing advanced too much, is that a strain on the crankshaft? I know that engine braking is not a good idea, nor applying brakes with engine engaged......

Glad to hear it's running well!

[1910Hupp]

David the thing that I find the most interesting is that if you follow the factory timing instructions I think you are setting the engine slightly retarded. TDC no matter which method I use to find it corresponds to the first mark on the crankcase. I don't think it is past the second mark to the right -So therefore turning the flywheel forward to the second mark to set the ignition is retarding it . I always understood that the ignition was fixed slightly advanced in the original set up . Certainly setting my car up on the left line gives me a faster running smoother engine suggesting a more advanced spark setting . If any of the Gurus out there have the answer to this apparrent contradiction I'd be interested to hear from you -Karl

[Max BURKE]

G,day to all and Karl.

No doubt when you were changing your Magneto you would have taken off the mag gear cover with it. Notice the gear has two keyways. This is to give you an assembly adjustment of a half tooth. If some old time mechanic got fed up with trying to start the gear retaining nut in the limited space,especially if he had installed a seal at the front of said case and had cut an access hole for the nut then your job is simplified.By just mounting to the cam box with two cap screws the mag is easy to retime.We run3/8 advance on the piston and check with a timing light to our flywheel mark when finished . A hole bored in the flywheel cover makes the mark more visable.The pennies saved on the cheaper fixed spark magneto probably meant a Hup sale rather than a Ford.Fellows who have convinced themselves that applying the footbrake in drive motion breakes the crankshaft must have better brakes than i have seen on a Hup 20.Might i suggest missaligned main bearings the more likely culprit. We run a Sims magneto with two spark. on our D We start on Bat . and run on both ignitions.On our C we run a Dixi with battery start switching the bat off when running. Very handy if the car has stood out in the cold overnight when touring. On this car we run the sparkplugs over the exhaust valves. Max Burke Nulkaba Australia