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1920 Dodge Brothers Touring question?


DCE

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What primer would be correct for the wheels on a 1920 Dodge Brothers touring car?

The metal parts that require priming are the brake drums, drive plates (hubs), felloe band, felloe clips, felloe protectors.

The wooden spokes & wooden felloes require priming as well. What would be the correct primer for these wooden parts?

Thanks for your help. Dale

Edited by DCE (see edit history)
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Doesn't it have more to do with the paint "system" now-a-days? You buy the stuff all from the same manufacturer and look through their products for an etching metal primer and more of a fill primer for the porous wood? That way all the chemical processes between the layers of paint products work together in a happy way?

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The restrictions on the sale of traditional paints and products means you really have to search for the right stuff. These days it seems they only want to sell you water based paints or two pack which contains cyanide!

Jason, would you be able to use epoxy primers on the wood and the metal?

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Guest 1930

Quote...........Jason, would you be able to use epoxy primers on the wood and the metal? .............Yes and no I guess it would depend on the manufacturer of the primer and how they reccomend it be used.

Quote.........Doesn't it have more to do with the paint "system" now-a-days? You buy the stuff all from the same manufacturer and look through their products for an etching metal primer and more of a fill primer for the porous wood? That way all the chemical processes between the layers of paint products work together in a happy way?......

As I mentioned its all on personal preferance, they tell you you have to use their products from A-Z in order to get optimal results but that is nothing more than a sales ploy.

I spend the day and have every day for many years cocktailing different products often times from different manufacturers to get specific results and can not only get away with it but have long standing sucess with it because I have a pretty good idea of what I am doing.

I am sure that every tradesman has his techniques and this is how we make our living.

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The autobody shops I have spoken to have very little advice when it relates to the type of primer I should use for wooden wheels.

The business that is manufacturing / rebuilding the wooden spoked wheels have asked that I deliver all metal components in the primed state.

Once the wheels have been rebuilt I will then have to have the wooden parts primed so the final coats of paint may be applied to the whole wheel (including metal and wooden parts).

I am not an autobody person so I will be contracting the priming and painting out to a shop.

It appears I may have to provide some advice to the shop when I deliver the items to be primed and painted.

Jason ... Do you recommend a specific product for primer and final paint type? Keeping in mind I would like to keep the vehicle as authentic as possible.

I really appreciate everyone's help.

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Guest 1930

I like PPG products and specifically their DP40 epoxy primer. I realize that according to their tech sheets it does not say that it will adhere to wood, doesn't say it will not either though and I have used it for years and never had an issue with it and have used directly over bare wood.

One thing to remember is that epoxy primers ( or at least this particular primer ) are not made to get alot of build with alot of coats, this particular product ( in my opinion ) gets alot of build with very few coats.

You are risking the chance like etching primers for it to blister and flake off down the road if you hammer it on.

I have never attempted to hammer it onto a wooden part but I have done that with steel and have had issues if I don't allow enough flash time or I allowed to large of a window before succeeding coats.

My advice to you would be to pick a product that you would like to use whether it be Sickens ( which in my opinion carries some of the finest clear coats avail. ) House of color ( which in my opinion carries some of the finest varieties and broadest bands of colors available ) DuPont or PPG which both carry very nice workable products as well although their products may be a tad more dedicated to a production facility and call their tech support line and ask them their advice on your wooden wheels just maybe for your own peace of mind.

An issue with doing so is that chances are you will be speaking with someone that hasn't been in the field ever or has been out of the field for many years so you will only be getting opinions based on data that can be interpreted a dozen different ways or does not consider all of the facts because that manufacturer doesn't want to put its name out there as having a problematic product.

I wouldn't expect a body shop to give advice to anyone that asks it because again they don't want to give away any trade secrets, they don't want to put their name on any particular product that they themselves are not spraying and last but certainly not least there are many different considerations that have to be considered when using any product so they don't want to be held in any way liable to suggest any product that they themselves have no control over on how it is used.

Trust me when I say that any body shop that gives you such advice should prob. not have that same representative of their shop speaking with customers as they walk in the door but instead should be back in the shop with a broom in their hand cleaning up.

Back when our cars were sprayed and dipped materials and enviorments were un-like we have today, I know they still ( or at least did up until recently ) sell nitrocellulose lacquers and the like but again there is no possibility of attaining the same finish as was originally applied due to at the very least changes in spray guns the already mentioned materials and since most of the labor was done manually there would be no way of knowing the specific procedures used at the time of the original finish in the order in which they were done.

If you don't believe that than run some tests yourself using different levels of air pressure and see how it lays out or run your tack rag over your color coats at different intervals and see how it affects the final finish.

I would recommend going with a modern day urethane product as my top-coat.

I don't really feel comfortable with getting any more specific than that because of the reasons pointed out above, if I'm not spraying it than I have no control how your end result will be and even if I am spraying it there is always the chance for failure because of many possible outside enviomental influences.

There are other products ( cant remember the trade name now ) sold in catalogs such as Eastwood ect. There has been alot of talk over these products on forums such as this and they have been for the most part posative.

These products may be good as well but I have nearly zero experience with any of them as they are solicited more toward the hobbyists and generic one size fits all crowd but I would look into these as well and take some of their products into consideration.

Edited by 1930 (see edit history)
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It is quite understandable that Jason feels uncomfortable in recommending someone use product a. or b. and guarantee that they will have a good result. For the professional painter, everything needs to be under his control in controllable conditions.

For the DIY enthusiast like me, there are many variable factors. One sometimes sees micro-blistering on amateur paint jobs. Obviously, there would have been moisture present. If the job had been done on a clear, dry day, the problem would usually have been with the compressed air which leaves the compressor in a hot, wet and oily condition. That is unless one invests in an oil free compressor, a dryer and a good filter.

One of the things which Jason flagged up is the varying results.. This depends on so many factors; the gun and compressor settings , paint/thinners mix, ambient temperature, type of gun, nozzle etc., etc. etc. and that's not taking into account the different spraying techniques and operator preferences.

The amateur will never achieve professional results but in my experience, a good, attractive finish is possible but it takes a lot of practise and there are many disappointments along the way. It all depends on how much you really want to do it.

I can only speak from my own experiences which have been entirely with nitro cellulose. The advantage of this old fashioned paint is that although it has it's downside (softer and scratches easily) it is much more forgiving than modern paints, is safer to use with basic equiptment and takes a polish readily. The finish is generally deep rather than high gloss.

There is difficulty in finding a supplier of nitro these days, and although the quality of paint is usually fine, the same cannot always be said of the thinners .Sometimes, the top gloss is no better than gun wash. This is because the big names no longer supply nitro and scammers have found a way in. Once bitten, twice shy and I now have a reliable supplier.

All things considered, it is probably better to leave it to the professional.

Ray

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Guest 1930

Quote..........For the DIY enthusiast like me, there are many variable factors. One sometimes sees micro-blistering on amateur paint jobs. Obviously, there would have been moisture present. If the job had been done on a clear, dry day, the problem would usually have been with the compressed air which leaves the compressor in a hot, wet and oily condition. That is unless one invests in an oil free compressor, a dryer and a good filter............Or the jack-ass behind you is detailing cars and spraying god knows what into the air.

Quote..........The amateur will never achieve professional results ............I diasgree with this, I agree with this.....It all depends on how much you really want to do it..............I can still walk into the spray booth and have a run down the bedside from one end to another on any given day, painters I dont care how experienced cross their toes every time they pass under that sacred Usitalia thresh hold.

Quote............All things considered, it is probably better to leave it to the professional......... I disagree, the satisfaction you can get from doing it yourself and having it meet YOUR expectations ( screw what anyone else thinks ) cant be beat and by doing it yourself you will know what you have when its done.

No matter what shop you bring it too and no matter what kind of money you are farming out you have to remember that chances are in this day and age nuthin is more important on that bodymans ( maybe not soo much the painter because his end isnt quite as extensive if the bodyman is decent ) mind than gettin it done and over with so he can move onto greener dollar bills.

Edited by 1930 (see edit history)
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An aquaintance of mine (I won't call him a friend) has paid out a fortune having his vintage car bodywork restored. It's what I call a 'cheque book' restoration. The car is simply perfect and the guy walks off with every concours prize going. That's his way; it's not mine. For me the pleasure of restoring old cars is in doing as much as possible myself and that includes the bits that many other people walk away from which usually includes extensive welding; machining; chrome plating (small parts); upholstery; body prep. and especially paint.

I know from the outset that my finish will not match the best professionals but if I can get an even, run free, blister free shine that I am happy with, then that is where my personal satisfaction comes from. I have never been and never will be a 'pot hunter'. Good luck with the 'trailer queens' - I hope they bring their owners as much pleasure as if they had got their hands dirty; but somehow I doubt it.;)

Ray

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No matter what shop you bring it too and no matter what kind of money you are farming out you have to remember that chances are in this day and age nuthin is more important on that bodymans ( maybe not soo much the painter because his end isnt quite as extensive if the bodyman is decent ) mind than gettin it done and over with so he can move onto greener dollar bills.

I couldn't agree more. Professionals are only called "professionals" because they get paid for what they do and have some sort of training behind them. The customer expects a professional result as a consequence. However there are good and bad professionals, we all know that. Being in a trade myself, it all comes down to money mostly. Having the boss breathing down your neck because money is tight to get something finished is a great incentive to walk away from a job and not be totally satisified with the finished product. Unfortunately, modern times mean "old fashioned" service is exactly that - old fashioned. Its still out there, but harder to find and your probably going to pay extra for it.

Do your research and ask to see previous work or talk to previous customers if you can. That's a good way to put the odds in your favour for a satisfactory outcome.

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I noticed EBAY sells Transtar paints. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than PPG, R&M, Dupont, Etc. I'm hearing a lot of good things about that line of paint on other forums. I used R&M 20 years ago but could not tell you good stuff now!

Jason, want to chime in here? Have you used Transtar?

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Guest 1930
An aquaintance of mine (I won't call him a friend) has paid out a fortune having his vintage car bodywork restored. It's what I call a 'cheque book' restoration. The car is simply perfect and the guy walks off with every concours prize going. That's his way; it's not mine. For me the pleasure of restoring old cars is in doing as much as possible myself and that includes the bits that many other people walk away from which usually includes extensive welding; machining; chrome plating (small parts); upholstery; body prep. and especially paint.

I know from the outset that my finish will not match the best professionals but if I can get an even, run free, blister free shine that I am happy with, then that is where my personal satisfaction comes from. I have never been and never will be a 'pot hunter'. Good luck with the 'trailer queens' - I hope they bring their owners as much pleasure as if they had got their hands dirty; but somehow I doubt it.;)

Ray

Another guy that posts here, cant remember his screen-name but he is Rod posted what his Friend quoted him just for materials to do his car, I mentioned that there was zero possability that this quote was in any way accurate, cant remember how many times higher it was but many times comes to mind.

I wouldnt know where to begin with machining or plating and know very little about upholstery so that is whats nice about these forums, we all know something about something.

I for one and I am sure many others would appreciate a post explaining what you know in referance to these things.

Your finish can look as good as any professional if you know how to use a buffer properly ;)

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Guest 1930

Do your research and ask to see previous work or talk to previous customers if you can. That's a good way to put the odds in your favour for a satisfactory outcome.

Good luck with that

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Guest 1930
I noticed EBAY sells Transtar paints. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than PPG, R&M, Dupont, Etc. I'm hearing a lot of good things about that line of paint on other forums. I used R&M 20 years ago but could not tell you good stuff now!

Jason, want to chime in here? Have you used Transtar?

R.M carries a fine line, I dont know a thing about transtar, I would be concerned about buying paint on-line, paint is a hazardous material so special shipping needed which can make shipping costs high.

I work/play around for a guy now that uses off name/no-name products, he dosent care, auction cars or used cars from dealers mostly, havent seen too much of this in my career but Im gettin older so slowing down a bit, its not far from home, the moneys not horrible and I made it clear up front that Ill cave and pave all day if thats what he wants but Im not doing anything questionable on safety related items which he agreed to ( for now )

The primers have no bite, Ive had issues with the mettalics ( no consistency in size of chips to start ) and the clears seem to always want to eventually haze over and are not true clear, watch your clears as alot of the junk ones will be yellowish.

If it were my car Id look at the savings, maybe a few hundred tops over a name brand tried and trusted paint, Id save a little longer and get the name brand.

Edited by 1930 (see edit history)
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Dale began this thread asking what primer should be used and we have all given our opinions; professional and amateur. The thing that we may have missed is that his paint shop are asking HIM for advice about which primer THEY should use.

It seems to me that if they need to ask Dale which primer they should be using, perhaps they are not the most experienced when it comes to painting wooden wheels?

Ray.

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Guest 1930

My doctor knows a guy here locally that works strictly on Rolls Royce, I guess he is third generation Rolls Royce tech, works in some obscure building somewhere here locally, charges very little, ( when compared to the other guys ) gets it done when its done and enjoys his work. I call that the American dream

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Now your'e talkin' . They always say the grass is greener on the other side but if I had the confidence to take the risk, I would run a restoration workshop. Where I used to live (Sunningdale in Royal Berkshire) there was a garage doing mainly Rolls Royce and Bentley - with the occasional Lagonda, Daimler, Bristol...... quality stuff. I think I might be intimidated by Phantom 111's and Merc 600 Pullman's though! :D

Ray.

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