Guest GaWajn Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I am back from the engine builders.The verdict is ... the rod bearings are shot ... the mains are iffy ... The next step is to bring them the block, head and crank with the pistons. They are not going to charge me anything to check the tolerances on the parts. After I have the data ... I will be able to make some decisions.What I need for certain are:1 - Timing chain and gears2 - Cam bearings3 - Rod bearings4 - Main bearings5 - Ring set (not sure of size yet)6 - Valves and springsThe block and head I am going to have cleaned and astrofluxed (check for cracks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY F Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 like your story & pics. i follow you every day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herm111 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I started today by reaming out the ridges at the top of the cylinders using a ridge reamer tool.The first two cylinders ... I honed the top of the cylinder a bit ... but it was not needed so I didn't do that for the remaining 6 cylinders.I then proceded to remove the pistons ... making certain to keep everything in order with the caps put back on the rods the way they came off. The caps were marked from the factory, but the rods were not. I used a number punch to mark the rods with numbers that matched the caps. The side where the number is on the cap is the forward side (number towards the front).There you see cylinder number four ... it is pretty crusty in there.Every rod bearing has some scoring and pitting. Looks like I will need new rod bearings. That means the crank will need to be turned ... the mains are not off yet, but likely the same fate as the rod bearing is waiting to be found out.Looks like your valve seats are shot, needing inserts. The bearing you show is lead babbitt any way. If you had as much ridge as the picture shows in the cylinder, you will never get a set of rings to seal, using those pistons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Most cranks can be polished unless the wear is abnormal or scored. You can then use a .001 or .002 undersize bearing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 This morning I got the flywheel off. It just needed some persuasion with a hard rubber mallet.Bell housing removed ... Cam gear and timing chain off ... And finally ... the crank removed ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Purchased an Engine Overhaul Gasket Set from Kanter at $225 ... running total ... $6270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unimogjohn Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Really enjoy the blog, keep them coming. The pics are great. And posting the total cost to date is very helpful. I did the same for the Avanti. I think that it helps one consider what the costs will be in their own restoration. Makes for better, more informed, decision making. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) You are welcome unimogjohn. The running total is keeping me in the reality zone.A lot of people say that ''YOU MIGHT AS WELL REPLACE IT WHILE YOU HAVE IT APART'', I am not of this opinion. It adds up very fast when you tally up what the cost of parts are that you really didn't need to change in the first place. Also ... a lot of the parts that you get today as replacements are cheap China junk and not necessarily better than the old steel that you already have. I believe that if a part is shot ... then replace. A slightly worn part that is still servicable is fine to keep in my opinion, as long as it is in acceptable tollerances.One area that I will replace all the parts are the brakes.My engine rebuilder says to me ''OH I WOULD REPLACE ALL THE VALVES''. I must take into consideration what his experiences are. He does mostly muscle car and race engines. Of course he would say that, but I have been talking to a few retired old time mechanics ... and they are telling me that if the valves have not been ground yet ... they can be reused with a regrind to the valves and seats, and lapped in there nicely. The only concerns for them as far as the valve train goes is the valve springs. They are 60 years old and probably have lost some of their tension. So I am thinking that I will probably do springs ... the rest (guides and lifters), I will wait and see what the rebuilder's verdict is.If I were to replace most every replacable part ... the restoration cost would be far more than the car would be worth at the end. Replacing everything is ok if you have money to burn ... but that is not my situation. I want to do it right ... but be reasonable while doing it. I will not reuse worn out parts ... but I will not replace parts that are still good. This car will be a driver ... it will be safe to drive ... but not factory new.OK ... end of rant ... Edited July 5, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 GaWajn, someone asked about priming the engine before paint. There is some debate about the need to prime, it was certainly not done originally. BUT given the humid air and seasonal temp changes in the midwest I chose to prime mine with PPG epoxy primer before painting. Remember, the engine was originally assembled before painting, so all the bolt heads and gasket edges should be painted too and the primer will help avoid rust starting at surface edges. The exhaust manifold was not installed until later and the exhaust manifold paints all suggest running the engine to cure the paint, so you can save that for last. Enjoying your thread, Todd CrewsPOCI 1957 Technical Advisor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) Helpful info on the paint there. I will be painting the cast parts ... priming and then painting the steel parts.I will be painting some parts individualy before assembly ... but a final spray will be done with everything assembled as you describe. The reason I am going to do this is because some of the parts ... like the bell housing as an example ... still have some paint in the area between the housing and the block. That is a tight squeeze. If I am seeing paint in those areas ... I am thinking that the only way I will get decent coverage is to paint it while apart. Edited July 5, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 A lot of people say that ''YOU MIGHT AS WELL REPLACE IT WHILE YOU HAVE IT APART'', I am not of this opinion. It adds up very fast when you tally up what the cost of parts are that you really didn't need to change in the first place. Also ... a lot of the parts that you get today as replacements are cheap China junk and not necessarily better than the old steel that you already have. I believe that if a part is shot ... then replace. A slightly worn part that is still servicable is fine to keep in my opinion, as long as it is in acceptable tollerances.My engine rebuilder says to me ''OH I WOULD REPLACE ALL THE VALVES''. I must take into consideration what his experiences are. He does mostly muscle car and race engines. Of course he would say that, but I have been talking to a few retired old time mechanics ... and they are telling me that if the valves have not been ground yet ... they can be reused with a regrind to the valves and seats, and lapped in there nicely. The only concerns for them as far as the valve train goes is the valve springs. They are 60 years old and probably have lost some of their tension. So I am thinking that I will probably do springs ... the rest (guides and lifters), I will wait and see what the rebuilder's verdict is.You have a point with your comments above. The idea to "replace everything while you are in there" is standard practice IF you have quality replacement parts available. I quite agree with your point that today's restorer must consider that Chinese replacements are often of lower quality than a slightly worn original. Also correct is that compared to a street rodder or racer the use of an old flathead Pontiac is going to be very low stress. I reused the valves in my (low compression) 1957 Pontiac and do not anticipate a problem. Saving a buck is secondary to doing a proper job, but no need to spend unecessarily either. Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I will be painting some parts individualy before assembly ... but a final spray will be done with everything assembled as you describe. The reason I am going to do this is because some of the parts ... like the bell housing as an example ... still have some paint in the area between the housing and the block. That is a tight squeeze. If I am seeing paint in those areas ... I am thinking that the only way I will get decent coverage is to paint it while apart.That is all fine. Just note my reference again to the epoxy primer which I have recommended previously (I am sure Dupont has a brand in their line). The rust resistance is the reason for the epoxy and it is far better than any primer from a spray can I have ever used. I use it on everything and swear by it and given the moisture I seem to get in storage it must work. Good luck, Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Sometimes ... things are just easy ... isn't that nice for a change ... Here is the oil sump ... it is just a matter of disassembling ... cleaning ... and reassembling ... I just could not get over the amount of sludge in there ... There is no provision for an oil filter ... and the old oils were not very good ... you see the result here ... All cleaned up in the parts washer ... And reassembled ... waiting for reinstallation.I'm done for today ... super time ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I agree, that the valves don't necessarily need replacement, clean and measure them, then decide. If they haven't ever been ground, and aren't burned, they should be fine to re-use.Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacerman Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Pontiacs did not have a filter because they had that sump instead. It was designed to remove solids from nondetergent oil which did not hold the contaminants in suspension like detergent oil. You'll probably be using detergent oil so you may want to investigate the use of an aftermarket filter if there is such a kit available. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Didnt some manufacturers off a filter set up as a option? If so perhaps one is around for sale on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Didnt some manufacturers offer a filter set up as a option? If so perhaps one is around for sale on the net. I have seen a few set up the external oil filter. However, the block had the ports for it capped off but available for fitting the piping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Krooser Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You can still buy those old Frantz Oil Cleaners that used toilet paper as a filter medium....As far as replacing everything that you can, that's what today's "parts replacers" do... not old time mechanics. The good ones repaired things. One reason was new parts were scarce 60+ years ago... many guys were depression babies and learned to make what they have work without spending a small fortune.When I started working at a gas station at age 14 I learned to rebuild generators and starters in our shop. We arced every brake shoe we installed. We had a couple customers with 30's vintage Fords and one job I had was to clean out the oil pans by removing the large inspection plate at the bottom of the pan... Granted today's cars are different but thank God we still have these old rides around to enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Prior to 1941, Pontiac did offer an accessory oil filter produced by General Motors A.C. division, trade name Kleer-Kleen. From 1942-1954 all Pontiac engines were updated and equipped with a patented, precipitation-type oil cleaner built into the crankcase. In 1942, the capacity of the oil cleaner sediment was quadrupled. Oil was forced to reverse direction above the sediment bowl, causing any contaminants to precipitate out of the oil flow and be captured in the bowl.Pontiac engineers determined that this devise effectively removed all particulate matter large enough to cause engine damage. Pontiac even offered a kit to retrofit sixes and eights back to 1937.With this patented system Pontiac was the only G.M. division from 1942-1954 to not have or need a external oil filter. I have seen quite a few Pontiac's of that era where owners have installed a external oil filter, so that is possible, but you must remember those types of oil filters are BY-PASS filters- I see them on Chevy sixes and first era 265 V-8 of that era all the time and were offered as said before by G.M. BY-PASS filters do not filter any oil to the oil pump, but take the oil from a oil gallery so only a small portion of the oil is filtered at one time-eventually in theory at some point all the oil will finally be filtered. Too late in my opinion ( I think in Pontiac's Engineering department's to ) before doing damage. As far as the sludge that you see in your photos in the sediment bowl, it only means the filter was doing it's job.Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 It was good enough for Pontiac way back then ... and they had a good reputation for reliability ... so I will not be adding any type of filter.Even some modern engines have sludge problems. The filter or lack of it is not a huge factor in sludging in my opinion. Humidity ... too much mileage between oil changes ... all contribute to sludge. I will be happy to run my Pontiac for the next 60 years, and then clean out the sump again Thanks for the input guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I would say thats a fine decision! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Between camping, summer, house hunting and other things ... I have not done much on the car. I will resume ... when time permits ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 hi, the reason why pontiac went with the internal oil filter system was the engine has solid non-hydraulic lifters, why allowed the engine to tolerate minute particles in the oil has it circulated throughout the engine. that all changed in 1955 with the new strato-streak 287 V8 having hydraulic lifters. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Today ... I just removed some parts from the cowl ... in preparation for the body removal from the frame, later this summer ... or early fall.removed horns and relay ... vent controllers ... Some wiring ... I took a lot of pics ... because I know they will come in handy for the re-assembly phase ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Not going to do a whole lot next week because we are going camping again. We have to take advantage of the good weather when we can.The block, crank, pistons, head and valvetrain is at the engine rebuilders. They are going to dismantle the valvetrain ... clean everything ... check the block and head for cracks ... measure everything ... so when I get back in a couple of weeks ... I will have data on which to base my rebuilding decisions.Question ... when I removed the head ... it seemed like it had a slight spring to it. As the bolts came off as per the manual ... one end was ever so slightly off the block. Is this normal? Is there any problems if I deck the block and head? Edited July 20, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 that is not normal, you'll need to check the block and cylinderhead surface for being warped, i suspect the head is warped. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) Well ... there is good news and bad news ... the good news is that the head is fine ... I guess my imagination was playing tricks on me.As far as the block goes ... I found out what caused the water leaking into cylinder number four.As you can see ... I have a crack!The rebuilders are telling me that a lock N stich procedure, followed by a new sleeve installation in bore number 4, will get the block back into shape.I also have a couple of very slight cracks in a couple of valve seats ... this will also be adressed at the same time. The water passages were filthy. They have all been cleaned out, and the rest of the block looks sound.I wanted to check with a couple of people localy about the lock N stich process and they endorse it ... so that's what I am going to do. The second reason I want to do this procedure instead of hunting for a new block, is that I want to keep everything as original as possible. Looks like the procedure is going to cost about $300. The crank will be cleaned this weekend ... the bores were measured out and they have a taper in them. about 8 to 10 thousanths over from bottom to top of cylinder. The machinist is recommending a 30 over bore with new pistons and rings obviously ... stay tuned ... Edited July 27, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) I have not heard of this proceedure for the crack fix. However, does the shop warranty the work?Here is an idea of how it workshttp://r-f.com/lock_n_stitch_repair.asp Edited July 27, 2012 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 hi gawajn, be sure that you don't buy new pistons from egge machine shop in santa fe springs, ca. the pistons made there are of very poor quality and durability. i know first hand, egge 0.030 over pistons were in my 1953 pontiac straight eight, that was expertly rebuilt and assemble by engler bros. in santa monica, ca. the piston in number 7 cylinder came apart at the oil ring groove, when the rebuild was only 2 years and 15,000 miles old. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I am waiting for the cylinder sleeve to get here ... then work on the engine will be able to proceed.In the meantime ... I am attempting to remove rust from parts using my battery charger ... I will share results when I have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsue Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Just found your thread. Read all 6 pages tonight.I admire your progress and determination. I plan to follow your progress. Keep the photos and updates comingGood Luck and thanks for keeping everyone informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I am giving electrolysis rust removal a try. I want to see if it can help free up some seized rusted parts. In particular ... the heat riser valve in the manifold.I set up, as explained on many youtube videos, but my newer battery charger did not work. I tried an older charger and it worked fine. Go figure. Maybe the newer one has some kind of sensor that stops this process (a controlled short), from happening.Anyways, I tried it first on a piece of sheet metal that was rusted ... similar to this piece showed below ... The process worked just fine. After cooking in the vat for about 12 hours, it was completely de-rusted and covered with a black residue. I scrubbed the residue with a fine scotchbrite pad and water, but it does not come completly clean. There is still black residue in the pits ... A few questions for those of you that are familiar with the process. What is the best way to remove the black residue? Is there some kind of bath? Also ... if some residue remain ... can you paint or do bodywork over it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) While the manifold is cooking in the electrolytic bath ... I cleaned the bell housing and painted it ... I used 60 grit aluminum oxide to clean the bell housing. Glass bead is not quite coarse enough for my taste, to do the job fast.Then I just brushed on the engine paint I got from the Hirsch company.And here it is after it dried ... looks pretty good ... Edited August 2, 2012 by GaWajn (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Same thing with Intake manifold ... clean and paint. It's mostly to keep the rust off till final paint to the assembled engine ... That's it for today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 you're doing a great job, charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Keep it coming. Great read and leaning a thing or two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I love the progress you're making, and thanks for the pictures. On my '41 Roadmaster, tried everything I could think of, sandblasted, then various oils, and other things that are supposed to loosen rust, heat, but just could not free up the heat risers. I did NOT try electrolosis, though.Thanks for keeping us posted.Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Well ... I found out why my charger was not working for my electrolysis experiment. The charger was defective!This is a picture of my new setup. Seems to be working A-1 at the moment.At 12 volts ... it is pulling close to 8 amps, so the 10 amp limiter selection works best for me with this setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacerman Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 To answer your question in Post 152 above, I have just cleaned with a scotchbrite pad, then wiped with wax and grease remover, primed, and painted parts. I have not worried about some remaining black residue. I'm only an amateur but I can't recall any bad outcomes from doing this. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaWajn Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Cleaned the pans today ... first with a putty knife ... then the parts washer ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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