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Once a month my AACA chapter does a tour. Last Sunday was no exception and driving through the countryside on our annual spring flower tour to a historical site where reserved parking and a BBQ is a treat. I was engaged in conversation with a person who was visiting this historical site but was not part of our group. This guy was also a car collector and was interested in my car because he collects the same make. He asked me why I didn't belong to the vintage brand specific club of our make of car. When I explained to him that I had been in the club he was referring to and was one of the earliest members, but the club chapter had been taken over by customs, hot rods and the national body turns a blind eye to to this was something I could no longer tolerate. I explained that for this very reason I decided to join AACA. Now after all that speal he responded by saying " you guys do the same thing too " I asked by what do you mean??? He said just look at that 53 Packard Clipper parked next to you. I knew the owner, but it was the first time I had seen the car before. Totally stock on the outside, but alas-another small block Chevy with a 700R4 and add on A/C and a crowd of non car people around it. It was a disappointment to me as a member, I had no defense for me or the club. It was defiantly a insult to Packard.

Later I talked to the owner who has been in AACA much longer than I and he said he KNOWS the Packard people would be upset, but thought it would be OK with AACA. Our president said it made him sick to see a bent eight in there instead of the straight eight.

I know this event was just a chapter event, but I also believe the chapter should be a Representative of the National Club!

What say you??

D.

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I don't care for a "bent eight" in the Packard but then everyone has their take on the ridiculous.

For me it is having my daily driver pickup in the driveway eligible as an Antique vehicle in a certain club that I will not name!

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Everybody has their own priorities and comfort levels with various aspects of the vehicle hobby. Some are more concerned with exterior appearances, but desire "the style" combined with modern upgrades in powertrain and such.

In the case of the Packard, might it have been easier to take if it had a Packard V-8 under the hood? At least that would have kept the bloodlines the same.

Over the years, I've seen people put all kind of "non-original" engines in cars . . . especially the "default mode" small block Chevy engines. Personally, I respect a vehicle owner who goes to the trouble and expense (in some cases, usually LESS than what it would cost to transplant the Chevy 350 or 454 V-8!) to use a brand-correct powertrain in an earlier car. Even more points if it's done in a manner to not know it's there, until the hood is raised.

Unfortunately, there are many realities involved in keeping the earlier engines operational into the future. Finding competent repair operatives is becoming more of a problem, which kind of goes with the territory, but still disconcerting . . . especially for the "inline" engine vehicles, but worse for import owners, I suspect.

And then there's the issue of . . . "If the car was left stock, it might end up being junked with a worn-out motor" . . . or "Found sitting in a barn, with a cracked block". In some cases, if the car was not updated in some manner, it would be a prime candidate for the crusher. Truly, this can easily be a "no win situation", but hopefully there can be a section of common ground where we can appreciate what was done and why . . . if it meant saving the particular vehicle from extinction.

Not everybody has a perfect set of options available to them when the update might be done, so that can yield some unusual combinations. The "What can I get to work in there?" situation, considering what might be available in the local/regional area. Or "What will fit and work and not weigh too much?"

Hopefully, the vehicle hobby is plenty large enough that everybody can find a club they like and feel comfortable with! Whether the vehicle might be "survivor", "restored", "customized", or has updated "street rod or street rod" amenities.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)
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I think you've made a fair statement, club rules exist so owners can find a home within groups they feel comfortable. You said yourself that you left another club for this one, so it's unfair to members like yourself to be "subjected" to cars that do not conform. Having said that, I know the MBCA tours do not require that you bring your Benz, if your car is in the shop and you wanted to drive your Toyota, you're welcome to, the events are more for socializing, so if it's not required that he bring his club vehicle, then his bent-8 car is really no different. I am not familiar with the rules for gatherings.

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I like NTX5467s take on things. But in the end, one has to do what sets well with one's self.

I like our BCA Modified division. It takes care of this. I like the "400 point" car, and would never cut one down, I hope, for going that route, but some times money and or abilities almost dictate something else.

As for the Chevy 350!! Available, small, reasonable. Would not be my choice but I can understand why it is to many.

Ben

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I really don't see the problem. A club cannot – and has no right – to control what car an individual brings on a local tour. I've been on hundreds of local tours where members show up in "modern" cars. In neither case does AACA accept those cars for national judging, or for inclusion as a feature in its national magazine, etc.

If Mr. and Mrs. Super Important-to-the-club shows up for a local tour in a 1997 Buick, are you going to be the one to tell him he can't follow along? Legally, you have no right. The roads are public. The only place where the club can enforce its rules is on the show field, or in its magazine, and, of course, they can ask Mr. Modern Driver to go away, and they can revoke his membership.

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Thanks for the kind comments, First Born.

In the early days of "hot rodding" and drag racing, many luxury car V-8 engines found their way in to more common vehicles . . . Fords, Chevys, etc. . . . of earlier years. Drag racers did similar with engines, transmissions, rear axles, etc. Their "shopping location"? The local salvage yard. What was there was usually what was used. If a 1955 Chrysler showed up, you can surely bet that the first thing out of it was the Hemi V-8, which would end up "somewhere". Or there was a father-son "road trip" to another part of the state on Saturday to get parts for their project car.

Many people have forgotten that the word "recycling" very much applied to earlier-time automotive enthusiasts and "hot rodders" before it was applied to aluminum cans and such. This was how you fixed your daily-driver car or found parts to restore a car you were fixing up . . . in the days before "waving plastic" and online "point and click" purchases. In times when "Hemmings Motor News" was a publication that was NOT in every supermarket in the area. Things were different back then . . .

Over the years, there have been times when I might have wanted to strongly chastise a car owner for their particular engine choice, but as I've aged, I've also realized that each car owner usually tends to do what they're capable of doing OR motivated to do (which can relate to "their advisers", whom they might trust much farther than a stranger at a car event). Perhaps they might not have the purist orientation, but just want something they can drive and it be reliable more than anything else? Reality is that THEY own the vehicle and have to live with it. If some of their "rebuilding" choices might end up de-valuing the vehicle, it's THEIR money, not mine. Hopefully, the indiscretions they performed can be un-done later, by a future owner?

By the same token, if I see a car that's got an updated, but same marque, engine, I might be over there seeing how it was done and congratulate the owner for not following the leader, but doing something different than "the masses". Still, though, "execution" of the upgrade is very important, either way.

It also seems that unless a vehicle owner is highly motivated AND has the necessary tools to find the particular quality vendors they might need, their usual source can end up being the local auto supply store or auto salvage operation. OR they join a car club (hopefully one of the national clubs for their vehicle) and slide into the network the club(s) can provide.

I know that some people have very strong feelings about "modified" vehicles and their place in any car club the particular person might belong to. I can appreciate their orientations . . . just as I can appreciate the orientations of a person who buys a vintage vehicle (decent body, rusted chassis) and proceeds to use current technology and items to allow the vehicle's style to be enjoyed by those who might see it. To me, the "best ones" are the ones where the owner saves all of the cosmetics of the vehicle, maintaining very much original looks and such, but uses an appropriate frame from a more modern vehicle to replace the rusted original frame . . . rather than a version of an Art Morrison aftermarket frame (just my preference . . . considering future parts availability AND ease of repairs).

In many cases, it can be "a shame" that a good car was "cut up" to modify it. I've seen several first-gen Camaros with NO rust or bondo, which were gutted, tubbed, roll caged, and made into a purpose-built drag racer. One owner lamented that considering how things came to be, it was too nice of a car to make a race car out of. And then there's "The Old Guy" who took a rusty 1930s era Buick coupe, spiffed it up, and dropped in a late model Buick drivetrain in it.

Or one of our BCA chapter members who found a nice body 1949 Roadmaster Riviera, got it out of the field, then proceeded to put it on a '79 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham frame (Boranni wire wheels, rear disc brakes, Cadillac drivetrain, and all). Other than the wire wheels and rear sway bar hanging between the rear suspension control arms, the car looked completely stock. He did do a loose-cushion interior, as was popular in the later 1970s, though. Some of our chapter members congratulated him on what he'd done, but another one or two wanted to strangle him for not putting it back "original".

As I've aged and have seen how parts availability has progressed regarding older vehicles (which I grew up with or was around back then), I've come to be more concerned with the neatness of what people do to/with their cars. The level of workmanship and re-engineering are other things I look at. PLUS how much work the owner did themselves. And THESE criteria can apply equally to vehicles which have been put back completely original stock or have had some upgrade modifications done to them. They might have done some things I wouldn't have done, but it's not ME they've got to please. AND . . . that might give me the option of saying "Hey, that fits in there pretty nice. How'd you do it?" That then gets the owner talking about his car, me learning something for possible future reference, AND everybody can leave happy . . . one way or another.

Sometimes, it seems that some can tend to get all balled-up over something and end up missing the point that much of the enjoyment of the vehicle hobby is the social aspects of going to cruises, tours, or other car-related events. I understand why some groups/clubs/shows might put model year limits on their participants, but that just gives "others" a reason to go somewhere else and do something different. Still, there can be real reasons to do this . . . as in "street rods" and "street machines", for example. With all due respect, you can make more friends (expand your "network") by being friendly rather than walking up to some car owner and start in (on the owner) about why he ruined THAT formerly-nice vehicle. Perhaps the owner still has the left-over parts that were removed and might be willing to sell them to you? Don't burn any bridges before you might walk on them.

We might NEVER get a good answer for . . . "Should a vintage vehicle become an iron supplement for the tree it's sitting under (OR be allowed to become such due to failed mechanicals) or be re-chassied to save the vehicle and make it more driver-friendly than it might ever have been in its prior life"? There can be compelling reasons for the orientations at either end of the continuum of "let it rust in piece" or "rebuild it with modern technology" or "rebuild it "as designed", but hopefully there's enough room in the vehicle hobby for ANY orientation on that continuum, whether we as individuals might tend to agree with it or not.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)
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Guest Kingoftheroad

A V8 Packard may not please some people but, at least the car isn't in a junkyard somewhere..... Someone still cares enough for that car to keep it alive....:)

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First of all the car I was talking about was not a junkyard car at all. It would be in the 25K area if it had it's straight eight and ultramatic.

I have no problem with people doing anything to their car as they wish and they can be in clubs that love to do that type of thing. I have two cars built for Street/Grand touring myself so I know all about Modified vehicles, and I know and respect our club (AACA and my chapter of AACA) NOT to bring them around to any AACA event because they would undermine what AACA strives for.

So I ask you again to look at the AACA mission statement and rationalize why this person would want to bring a modified car to a AACA event or a AACA chapter event. Now you might say that the national club has no authority over a chapter bringing in such a car, but according to the mission statement the national club requires it's regions and chapters to abide by the aim and purpose of it's policy or mission statement.

So now square how you put a Chevy V-8 in a Packard and call that preserving a Packard?

D.

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A V8 Packard may not please some people but, at least the car isn't in a junkyard somewhere..... Someone still cares enough for that car to keep it alive....:)

A zombie isn't alive, and as far as I can tell it would not be not that hard to find a Packard straight 8 from 1953 to make this a real car (even assuming it was a basket case, which these days is unlikely anyway).

West's point about not being able to exclude cars from a tour is spot on, but not really the point here. This idea that any car needs a Chevy V8 to go backwards and forwards no matter what it originally had is objectionable to say the least. A 1953 straight 8 Packard is a roughly 105 mph car. I'm a sports car enthusiast, and I sure as heck wouldn't want to be in any car with that body/weight/suspension going near that fast. IF the Chevy motor is faster, who cares?

There is no logic to a lot of these cars.:confused:

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So I ask you again to look at the AACA mission statement and rationalize why this person would want to bring a modified car to a AACA event or a AACA chapter event. Now you might say that the national club has no authority over a chapter bringing in such a car, but according to the mission statement the national club requires it's regions and chapters to abide by the aim and purpose of it's policy or mission statement.

So now square how you put a Chevy V-8 in a Packard and call that preserving a Packard?

D.

AACA's belief system has always been about support and protection for vehicles as they left the factory with the caveat that our certified race car program accepts modified cars.

However, our stated policy with our regions and chapters gives them autonomy in operating their local clubs. As such, as long as I have been in this hobby (which is many years) I have attended and seen all sorts of cars allowed at local AACA shows and tours. Clubs need to survive and that means they need members. In more than a few cases our regions and chapters would be severely damaged by being exclusionary.

We fight every day to protect originality but to what end purpose does it get us by not allowing others to socialize with us and maybe someday buy that unmodified Packard to go along with their street machine? It happens all the time..I know many people who got the bug for a "AACA" type of car by joining a local club and learning about original cars.

At Charlotte a couple of weeks ago I was interviewed by Dennis Pittsenbarger of Hot Rod Magazine Radio. The BCA President was interviewed as well and I can tell you he was completely respectful of what we do and extremely interested since he is a car guy! He is now an AACA member and joined our Facebook and discussion pages. He has asked us to send him everything about our events so he can promote them and would like to come to Hershey this year.

We continue to be one of the few clubs that try to protect the "stock" hobby and we will always do that. Our national meets, magazines and tours completely support our mission. However, this forum allows for a more broad discussion of collectible vehicles.

I understand the passion and respect it but based on the realities of our hobby I see no harm in allowing someone to participate in local and regional activities with cars of their choice. The Packard? The car is preserved it seems and all it would take is an engine swap somewhere down the road...the car is not in a junkyard so at least we got half the loaf in this case.

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NTX is right !! I built a 37 coupe that had no engine or trans and an Olds rear end, no interior and no floor. I have told members of our chapter ( Buicktown ) that I was a "Hot Rodder " before I got into antiques. I primarily got into the hobby when my boys got old enough to drive and I was worried that they would take my 427 Chev powered 29 Ford on the road. When I joined the AACA in 1967 I had a 37 Chev and immediately found that a wife and 6 kids don't really fit. I bought a 32 Buick 90 series and helped start the Buicktown chapter. I was challenged by some of the "purists" to do a Buick right. My 32 was at Meadowbrook numerous times ,and my 40 Super convertible has been there and also to the "Eyes On Classic design " meet twice. I built the 37 in the late 90s and enjoy driving it.

Everyone has their own ideas about what a car is for and I want mine to drive. I have put over 109,000 mies on the 40 and it still presents itself well, but I love the 6 way power lumbar seats and AC and power windows,steering and brakes in the 37 . This is what happens when you get old. Everything runs in cycles, and the 37 is probably the last car I will sell

Edited by The Old Guy (see edit history)
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We seem to be constantly having this same discussion about stock vs. modified. I usually stay out of it but here are some of my thoughts. I went to a local AACA chapter car show / swap meet a few weeks ago. They had a good turnout and nice show field, I saw stock restored or original cars from a 37 Packard to a 2011 Corvette, barn cars, trucks, lots of modified tri-five Chevys, and a number of very nice hot rods. None of what I saw bothered me and I enjoyed seeing all the different types and quality levels of cars. If that chapter had firmly followed the "Stock Only" rule and turned away all modified cars it would have been a small show indeed. I have the utmost respect for anyone who restores a rare prewar car to showroom condition and I maintain both of my hobby cars in stock shape - BUT - if I could afford it I would LOVE to have a prewar car with all the performance, comfort, safety, driveability, and reliability of a modern car. I agree with the AACA restrictions for judged cars and don't think they should change those rules since they have such a large base of car classes. But when it comes to unjudged shows and tours the more cars the better.

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So I ask you again to look at the AACA mission statement and rationalize why this person would want to bring a modified car to a AACA event or a AACA chapter event. Now you might say that the national club has no authority over a chapter bringing in such a car, but according to the mission statement the national club requires it's regions and chapters to abide by the aim and purpose of it's policy or mission statement.

So now square how you put a Chevy V-8 in a Packard and call that preserving a Packard?

D.

AACA's belief system has always been about support and protection for vehicles as they left the factory with the caveat that our certified race car program accepts modified cars.

However, our stated policy with our regions and chapters gives them autonomy in operating their local clubs. As such, as long as I have been in this hobby (which is many years) I have attended and seen all sorts of cars allowed at local AACA shows and tours. Clubs need to survive and that means they need members. In more than a few cases our regions and chapters would be severely damaged by being exclusionary.

We fight every day to protect originality but to what end purpose does it get us by not allowing others to socialize with us and maybe someday buy that unmodified Packard to go along with their street machine? It happens all the time..I know many people who got the bug for a "AACA" type of car by joining a local club and learning about original cars.

At Charlotte a couple of weeks ago I was interviewed by Dennis Pittsenbarger of Hot Rod Magazine Radio. The BCA President was interviewed as well and I can tell you he was completely respectful of what we do and extremely interested since he is a car guy! He is now an AACA member and joined our Facebook and discussion pages. He has asked us to send him everything about our events so he can promote them and would like to come to Hershey this year.

We continue to be one of the few clubs that try to protect the "stock" hobby and we will always do that. Our national meets, magazines and tours completely support our mission. However, this forum allows for a more broad discussion of collectible vehicles.

I understand the passion and respect it but based on the realities of our hobby I see no harm in allowing someone to participate in local and regional activities with cars of their choice. The Packard? The car is preserved it seems and all it would take is an engine swap somewhere down the road...the car is not in a junkyard so at least we got half the loaf in this case.

======================================================

Thank you for that lengthy answer, but a simple clear message was all I was after.

So here is what I get from it. The local regions chapters are required to abide by the aim and purpose of the national club and it's OK for the local region and chapter to break the aims and purpose of the national club?

Yes or No?

D.

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Thank you for that lengthy answer, but a simple clear message was all I was after.

So here is what I get from it. The local regions chapters are required to abide by the aim and purpose of the national club and it's OK for the local region and chapter to break the aims and purpose of the national club?

Yes or No?

D.

D.

The short answer is that AACA National supports AACA regions and chapters, but does not tell them how to run their clubs. I consider regions and chapters as the "classrooms of the antique automobile world". They are the "teachers" of our club, directing members into the correct directions. We should NEVER turn anyone away, because you never know when that modified lover may see the light one day and help all of us promote our hobby!

Sorry, that's the shortest I can answer anything!:(:P

Wayne

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Since its inception there has been something about the sight, sound, and feel of the automobile that stirs the imagination and the desire to experience the freedom of the open road. Whether it’s the clatter of the single cylinder brass era car or the heavy thumping of big block Detroit musclecars that fuels the addiction, we are all kindred spirits. Vintage cars, trucks, buses, and motorcycles are our bond.

Since 1935, AACA has had one goal: The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types. From National Meets and Tours to Regional events, AACA is here to bring enthusiasts together through exciting National activities, friendship, and Antique Automobile… an award winning 100-page full color magazine.

That was from our home page and says it all. There are no simple answers in our club or many others. You can support your belief systems without chasing people away. The regions and chapters operate under the policies and procedures that are posted on our website. They are lengthy as well. It seems on the forum at times when you try to explain things people are not happy and when you don't explain things people are unhappy! AACA does not tell people what they can drive, show, tour, restore, modify or enjoy but there are rules at national meets and tours and they are firm. We hope our regions and chapters are evangelical to what we believe in and that opens the doors for participation by vehicles that go against our beliefs.

A short answer is that a region or chapter that has members with modified cars does not break any by-law. Or simply "what Wayne said!"

I should add that I do respect the opinions of people who fervently try to protect our hobby. I understand completely the passion and concern. However, each of us may have our own way of going about this and thus the conundrum!

Edited by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)
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I should probably leave well enough alone and stay out of this one.... but I guess I am not going to.

For many years, my exposure to AACA was only local chapter and region events. For the past few years, I have participated in National Meets and National Tours as well. I have more fun with the National Events myself, and we all know that the National Events do not include what I will simply describe as "Modified" cars. I am not personally interested in Modified cars myself, but I try to be tolerant of those who are fans of those types of cars.

Our local chapter's annual meet has all of the national classes of automobiles, but we also have a separate class in the local show for "Modified Vehicles". Over the years, I have seen a few Modified vehicle owners who have become active in AACA and participating with original, non modified cars.

Allowing modified vehicles allows our chapter to be good neighbors with other car enthusiasts in our local area and helps us spread the ways of AACA to folks who might not have otherwise been exposed to AACA. While I may not be clearly answering the original question, I think that a little tolerance is a good thing. From a practical perspective, it would be unwise for National to make any effort to mandate too much of local chapters or regions. I think that National currently does a good job of striking the right balance on this issue. Local clubs need to be run on a local level with as much autonomy as possible.

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I strongly concur that we need as many "friends" in this hobby as we can put together! In our respective clubs and also in other clubs. "Networking".

As for "running people off" because they might like a different type of vehicle (modified, in this case), that can be VERY easy to do. Once they're disgruntled and gone, there's about a 129% chance you'll never see them again. How'd they get disgruntled? Somebody implied (in some manner) that they "messed up" their car by what they migiht have done to it. If you might want to hear my story in this, send me your email in a PM on this forum.

Just as in the workplace, where you have to interact with someone you might not like to go out to eat or drinking with, for the good of the work environment and success of the business, you show them what I term "professional respect" while at work, and even outside of the workplace. Doesn't mean you have to compromise your own orientations, but that you support the good of the business entity by putting your own feelings aside while at work.

Some might term that "behavior modification", which it can be . . . as if you learn to respect a person for their particular work aptitude and abilities, you might also find that they aren't that bad of a person. Not that you get to be drinking buddies, but you might also learn something about how the other person does the good job they appear to.

One of my long-held orientations is that we should be on this earth to help others have a better life . . . within reason. Plus learning from others how to better do some things ourselves. In the realm of the automotive hobby, a purist (which I can be one of them) might not care for the modified car (a modified car that looks spectacular, in many cases, cosmetically), but I might also pick up some tips on detailing procedures and products by asking what the modified's owner uses or does. Or I might see a new product I've only read about in magazines. After seeing these things in person and talking to somebody who's done them, I can better asses if that's something I might consider doing/using myself, in the future. Think "horizon expansion". Networking, sharing information, gaining information, and making friends is, I feel, what the local club events need to be biased toward, if possible, whether the club is oriented toward "as produced" vehicles or allows for some changes/upgrades/enhancements of the particular vehicle marque in question. In some cases, an electronic ignition upgrade is "an accepted upgrade", with no point deduction, in some classes . . . possibly similar with halogen headlights, radial tires of the correct physical size, or even CB radios).

National club judged events have their own unique set of show classes and rules. IF there are some operatives in the national group who might desire the inclusion of other shows and show fields at the national event, they can take appropriate steps to do that within their respective national club . . . without compromising the original intent and orientation of the basic national show judging event. At the chapter level, things can be more free-form and diverse, if desired.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)
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Guest Kingoftheroad
I strongly concur that we need as many "friends" in this hobby as we can put together! In our respective clubs and also in other clubs. "Networking".

As for "running people off" because they might like a different type of vehicle (modified, in this case), that can be VERY easy to do. Once they're disgruntled and gone, there's about a 129% chance you'll never see them again. How'd they get disgruntled? Somebody implied (in some manner) that they "messed up" their car by what they migiht have done to it. If you might want to hear my story in this, send me your email in a PM on this forum.

Just as in the workplace, where you have to interact with someone you might not like to go out to eat or drinking with, for the good of the work environment and success of the business, you show them what I term "professional respect" while at work, and even outside of the workplace. Doesn't mean you have to compromise your own orientations, but that you support the good of the business entity by putting your own feelings aside while at work.

Some might term that "behavior modification", which it can be . . . as if you learn to respect a person for their particular work aptitude and abilities, you might also find that they aren't that bad of a person. Not that you get to be drinking buddies, but you might also learn something about how the other person does the good job they appear to.

One of my long-held orientations is that we should be on this earth to help others have a better life . . . within reason. Plus learning from others how to better do some things ourselves. In the realm of the automotive hobby, a purist (which I can be one of them) might not care for the modified car (a modified car that looks spectacular, in many cases, cosmetically), but I might also pick up some tips on detailing procedures and products by asking what the modified's owner uses or does. Or I might see a new product I've only read about in magazines. After seeing these things in person and talking to somebody who's done them, I can better asses if that's something I might consider doing/using myself, in the future. Think "horizon expansion". Networking, sharing information, gaining information, and making friends is, I feel, what the local club events need to be biased toward, if possible, whether the club is oriented toward "as produced" vehicles or allows for some changes/upgrades/enhancements of the particular vehicle marque in question. In some cases, an electronic ignition upgrade is "an accepted upgrade", with no point deduction, in some classes . . . possibly similar with halogen headlights, radial tires of the correct physical size, or even CB radios).

National club judged events have their own unique set of show classes and rules. IF there are some operatives in the national group who might desire the inclusion of other shows and show fields at the national event, they can take appropriate steps to do that within their respective national club . . . without compromising the original intent and orientation of the basic national show judging event. At the chapter level, things can be more free-form and diverse, if desired.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467

I agree 150 % !!

No need for hard feelings between car folks just because some may disagree on how the cars are built. We're all in the same hobby & we can learn from each other even if we follow different car philosophies (spelling? you get the idea).:)

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Guest fossiltin62

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen.............. In 100 or so years who is even likely to give a hoot. Take a look at buggies. Almost no-one cares.

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Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen.............. In 100 or so years who is even likely to give a hoot. Take a look at buggies. Almost no-one cares.

Cars are not buggies. They were issued in distinct, unique, and discreet editions, much like commemorative stamps or Longines watches. Buggies were rarely produced in such a manner, were usually homemade or assembled from kits, and were nearly always uniquely modified. As such there was never a viable collectors market for them, although a few passenger coaches are preserved in museums (few of which I would guess show any sign of modification/modernization). If you want an example of a similar commonly collected industrial commodity from the 19th Century you might try guns or mantel clocks.

...and when your done refinishing the clocks and guns to remove their original/patina-ed appearance, converting the clocks to more accurate/reliable quartz movements, and the guns to fire more accurate/reliable modern ammunition, then see how much collector value you have left. Prepare to be disappointed. :(

Edited by Dave@Moon (see edit history)
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1953 Clippers do not bring $25,000 in any condition. $15,000 maybe tops, after far mor than that is put in the car. And it was not a "Packard Clipper" it was a Clipper, a seperate make from Packard.

Clipper was only a separate make for one year, 1956. In 1953 Packard Motors was beginning to phase in the separation, but it had not yet occurred. In 1957, when the "Packardbakers" came out, the Clipper was merged back in as a model of the Packard line.

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Funny, when I looked at the trunk of the car the Packard crest was there and on the left side it said Packard on the other side it said clipper. There is a nice one in the for sale section of Hemmings, just like the Clipper Sportster that was parked next to me sans the engine. Anyroad this Sportster in Hemmings happens to be in the Packard section of Hemmings... I bet the seller didn't know his Sportster wasn't a Packard. I guess the seller also didn't realize that his asking price of 65K is way too high.

The point of my thread has been covered and explained by some of the power players of the club and that should be enough. I just couldn't get around the logic vs. the principal of the issue.

In the below Policy and Procedure Manual under 1.2 Aim and Purpose, I understand the first sentence quite clearly. The very last sentence about regions and chapters abiding by the policy governing the national club is what I have trouble with. Even trying to spin the meaning I couldn't correct it to mean what some people have said. Have a look;

1.2 AIM AND PURPOSE

The aim of the AACA is the perpetuation of the pioneer days of automobiling by furthering interest in and

preservation of antique automobiles and by promoting sportsmanship and of good fellowship among all AACA

members. The AACA uses the term "automobile" in a comprehensive sense to include all self-propelled

vehicles intended for passenger use (cars, race vehicles, trucks, fire vehicles, motorcycles, powered bicycles,

etc.). Similarly, the term includes various power sources such as gasoline, diesel, steam and electric.

The mission statement is: “America’s Premier Resource for the Collectible Vehicle Community.”

The AACA exists to support the mutual interests of its members. It provides a comprehensive activities program

that is available to all members and their families. The public is encouraged to take an interest in the organized

activities, meets, and tours; however, direct participation is limited to AACA members (and VMCCA members

in the case of the Revival AAA Glidden Tours®).

The AACA publishes several different types of periodicals and documents including the ANTIQUE

AUTOMOBILE magazine and the Rummage Box, Wheels, and Speedster The AACA Library & Research

Center supports research and restoration efforts. It is the desire of the AACA to do everything possible through

the national office, publications and the Library and Research Center to aid individuals, museums, libraries,

historians, scholars and collectors dedicated to the preservation of automotive history.

The purpose of the AACA is to provide an organization for members with a mutual interest in the antique

automobile hobby. While recognizing the importance of commercial enterprises that are critical to the

accomplishment of our independent and collective goals, the AACA maintains a strict disassociation from any

commercial or charitable enterprise.

The AACA achieves its objectives through the collective resources of its international membership. Regions

and Chapters support the interests of the members on a local basis. AACA members, directors, and officers are

expected to maintain the highest level of relations with the community at large.

The AACA is committed to making the antique automobile community accessible to all individuals on a nondiscriminatory basis. The Club reaffirms its strong opposition to discrimination based upon gender, age, race,

color, religious creed, national origin, disability, and marital, parental, veteran status or sexual orientation. As

such, the club will not deny membership to anyone based upon the above criteria.

The AACA also requires all of its regions and chapters to abide by the policy outlined above.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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I agree with Dave Moon in that buy taking a antique clock and changing the guts out to a quartz movement not only lessens it's value, it changes everything- meaning it has lost it's sense of historical value and most importantly it's identity as a representation of it's kind.

BTW, I really didn't want this discussion to go off in a direction of " I feel this way or that " I thought that the discussion would be about policy, just black or white. That is why in the beginning I stated the "mission of the club and the policy.

D.

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Maybe it could be worded more clearly but I think you misunderstand the meaning of the last sentence. I think that is a reference to the non-discrimination policy expressed in the previous two sentences....

"The AACA is committed to making the antique automobile community accessible to all individuals on a nondiscriminatory basis. The Club reaffirms its strong opposition to discrimination based upon gender, age, race, color, religious creed, national origin, disability, and marital, parental, veteran status or sexual orientation. As such, the club will not deny membership to anyone based upon the above criteria."

"The AACA also requires all of its regions and chapters to abide by the policy outlined above."

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Seems there is a common thread here. There seems like there is always someone ready to exclude someone else from participating in an antique car event. I read someplace that at the beginning of AACA, black model T's were excluded from the stadium grounds because they were "common" and not "antique" enough. That is a piece of AACA history we should not be proud of. Was it maybe because their owners were not rich enough to participate with the packard and cadillac owners?

I prefer the antiques, but there is more than enough room in this hobby for everyone. Maybe by mixing a little bit with other car owner types, they will get turned onto stock antique cars. There is no rule against a modified car participating in an local AACA event. Also, The newest antiques such as the chrysler K car were inovative in their time & certainly have their place in history. To my kids who are 6 & 8 they are pretty old to them. I personally think its kind of neat to see them on the show field, since those cars were new when I was their age.

Sorry had to vent. I just don't think exclusion is what AACA should be about, and we should be doing everything we can to get more participation at our events.

Bryan

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Someone still cares enough for that car to keep it alive....:)

And I am glad because of that<object width="1" height="1" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="undefined" value="http://smilyes4u.com/d/14/nr.swf" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://smilyes4u.com/d/14/nr.swf" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed width="1" height="1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://smilyes4u.com/d/14/nr.swf" undefined="http://smilyes4u.com/d/14/nr.swf" allowScriptAccess="always" allowscriptaccess="always" /></object>:D

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Maybe it could be worded more clearly but I think you misunderstand the meaning of the last sentence. I think that is a reference to the non-discrimination policy expressed in the previous two sentences....

"The AACA is committed to making the antique automobile community accessible to all individuals on a nondiscriminatory basis. The Club reaffirms its strong opposition to discrimination based upon gender, age, race, color, religious creed, national origin, disability, and marital, parental, veteran status or sexual orientation. As such, the club will not deny membership to anyone based upon the above criteria."

"The AACA also requires all of its regions and chapters to abide by the policy outlined above."

No Matt, the description is ALL of the above and the first sentence says antique vehicles, which does not include modified cars according to my definition, my states definition, or my insurance companies definition.

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helfen,

We can debate or discuss or argue until the cow's come home but we all need to try to get along. Like I said, "Maybe it could be worded more clearly...." but if you had access to all of the old versions of that document, I would be willing to wager that the last sentence was added at the same time that the two previous sentences were added, and the original intent (no matter how unclearly worded it may be) was to indicate that regions and chapters were required to abide by the non-discrimination policy. I also suspect that this was added upon advice of legal council for liability prevention instead of an attempt to codify some requirement that all chapters and regions abide by every particular statement in the national bylaws, as you seem to be arguing.

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It says, "ALL OF THE REGIONS", not ALL of the ABOVE. It seems to me that you are PLACING the word ALL where YOU want it, IMO.

Any group/club that doesn't want my MODIFIED BUICK, or any other modified car is a group/club that will continue to decline in membership, and attendance at shows, IMO. My Buick beside a original draws a more enthused crowd, PERIOD. 53 skylark is a MODIFIED 53 Roadmaster, did the designer/er's of the Roadmaster fight with the Skylark designers? Probably not, probably the same group. I don't know.

Dale in Indy

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Matt is right. How do I know...I was the one that wrote this on the advice of counsel and inserted it in our P & P Manual. I might have made it clearer but this has been there for several years with no questions.

Look, we respect all opinions and especially those of you who ardently support a very strict interpretation of what we stand for, however, we are not a monolithic organization. We have 60,000 members who have various differences of opinions on what they would like AACA to be. In the end, we have to side with the majority as this is a membership based organization. If you have any dislikes you simply need to contact our board and make your opinions known. Based upon the advice of our moderators I am now locking this but thank all of you who have posted

Edited by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)
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