Pete K. Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Hey all! This newbie has got some questions; I hope someone can help. I'm in a quandary as to how and where I can locate a set of top bow "saddles" for my 1925 touring. I know that question has probably been beaten to death. Nobody seems to reproduce them. Myers Dodge Parts does have the Studs for the body, but that's where it ends. "BUT" why is it when I see older, or original factory prints of 1920's Dodge touring cars, there are NO top saddles on many of the touring cars??? What's the story there? Looking at my Dodge, there is a raised washer held to body with a screw and square nut on inside that looks like it's been on there since the dawn of man. Same on other side, of course, plugging the holes in body for the studs that are meant to fasten saddles onto. Why on Earth, would someone buy a touring car and NOT ever put the top down?? Something just isn't adding up to me here! No where in the 1925 "Book Of Information" I have shows the saddles or the workings of the top. Am I missing an "owner's manual"?---Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 They are sometimes for sale on Ebay. I had to pay a lot for the ones that I found on there - if you add on the import duties, taxes and charges, the cost was particularly high for me in the U.K. I am also fairly new to Dodge Brothers ownership and also could not understand why they were not fitted to my car. As it hapens, mine has an Australian body without the fixing points you mention which I think were probably only found on 'Budd' all steel bodies. This means,of course, that I will have to make up my own fixings but I think it will be worth it if I can. Having shown them to a friend with a 12/50 Alvis, he wishes his car had some. Keep looking!Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Hi Pete, what ever happened to the photos you posted of your car, I looked on all of your posts and I see no attachments nor do I see any albums you have created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Hey all! This newbie has got some questions; I hope someone can help. I'm in a quandary as to how and where I can locate a set of top bow "saddles" for my 1925 touring. I know that question has probably been beaten to death. Nobody seems to reproduce them. Myers Dodge Parts does have the Studs for the body, but that's where it ends. "BUT" why is it when I see older, or original factory prints of 1920's Dodge touring cars, there are NO top saddles on many of the touring cars??? What's the story there? Looking at my Dodge, there is a raised washer held to body with a screw and square nut on inside that looks like it's been on there since the dawn of man. Same on other side, of course, plugging the holes in body for the studs that are meant to fasten saddles onto. Why on Earth, would someone buy a touring car and NOT ever put the top down?? Something just isn't adding up to me here! No where in the 1925 "Book Of Information" I have shows the saddles or the workings of the top. Am I missing an "owner's manual"?---Pete. One thing you maybe were not aware of is that mosr early D.B literature were not actual photos but instead artists renderings which might explain the lack of or the clarity of your top saddles. There is no owners manual, only the book of informationI would suggest that at one point your car donated its top saddles to a different cause because originally they would have been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 Thanks for the info guys. Yes, I noticed the artist's drawings had not included the saddles. Probably to show the public the new cars to look more streamlined, trying to get away from the horse and buggy day appearance. Anyway, I plan to use my top, as life is short, I will start my plans to experiment with Ford Model T repro saddle parts, OR...? I am not going to cut or reform my early Dodge roadster saddles. Someone may need them. Has ANYONE ever made saddles from other parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 How about this ?As you can see, the hood is neatly secured by top rest saddles. Nice car.Dodge Open Tourer For Sale (1920) on Car And Classic UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Pete, The major reason you may be having trouble finding saddles for your '25 is that somewhere in '24 those were no longer offered as standard equipment and were only offered at dealers as accessories. Earlier cars (pre '23) saddles were standard part of the car. So, there are less of those '24 to '28 saddles available today. Rodger "Dodger" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 That explains a lot, thank you Rodger for this input that I was not aware of. This may explain my saddle shaft rod holes in body with the body color washers and rusty square nuts on inside. So this top cannot be lowered without damage to top/bows without saddles? I'm now in search for a "retro-fit" saddle assembly. Somebody must have had to do this already. I wish they'd chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I think we need a little clarification here. The top saddles used many Budd (all steel) DB bodies were not permanent fixtures. Rather, they were carried in the car when not in use. The holes in whch they fitted had round clip on covers.When required, the cover was removed and the shaft of the saddle inserted into the hole. This shaft had a diagonal split which allowed it to be expanded when the nut on the end was tightened, thus locking it in place. This arrangement was unlike other saddles which tightened a yoke over a protruding shaft and were generally left in place after the top was raised.You need a pair of saddles with the expanding shaft arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Thank you Tony, That really explains everything now. My problem is I wouldn't know '25 Dodge touring saddles if one fell on my foot. I think all makes of that era car had those top saddles, but with subtle differences I can not differentiate. I can get the expanders and shafts you mentioned, but I'll have to try and configure one of the repro Ford "T" open type saddles with straps.(??) Summer's a'comin' and I'm puttin' that top down, one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) This is what I think you should be looking for, Pete.You can see the split shaft with bolt through. What I haven't quite worked out is exactly how to fit the smaller threaded piece inside the body of my car which has Australian coachwork not originally fitted with these. The beauty of this design, as Tony explained, is that the saddles can be removed when not in use. Edited April 11, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Thanks "R", That's exactly what I pictured them to look like. You can see the pair I found in the barn where I found the '25 tourer, they are much more rusty than anything on my car, They can be seen on a post by "MikeC5". They are shorter saddles with no shafts. I believe the previous owner was in search of the "unobtainable". I believe the man had found a Dodge roadster somewhere, since I've found a set of roadster folding top irons too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 As previously mentioned, I recently bought my top rest saddles off Ebay and they were expensive. I understand that other Dodge Brothers owners would also like to find some so the competition could be quite fierce.I have considered getting my local blacksmith to make some reproductions but I expect the cost would be astronomical. I hope you will show us photos of your modified Ford ones when you have them.Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Thats a great picture Ray and it is very kind too post it, I have never seen one posted here and have been curious on what they look like. Do you know exactly years and models they worked on, maybe you can find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) Hi Jason, according to RAH (in an earlier post) these useful clamps were a standard fitting up to sometime in 1924 when they apparently became an accessory offered by dealers. Quite why the Dodge Brothers company thought someone would wish to buy a new touring car and not have the top rest saddles included is a mystery to me.I have my own theory as to why these things seem to be so scarce today and that is because as they could easily be removed, they tended to get lost or separated from the car. With the passage of time, touring cars fell out of favour and these things would have been thrown away. Also, how many people (apart from old car enthusiasts) would have a clue what they were originally for? I have played a game with various friends; getting them to identify what they were used for. One bright spark thought they were antique hand cuffs! LOL !Ray. Edited April 12, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Tony made a post directly below RAH which has led to some confusion for me, I have already PMd Tony and have asked for some clarification and am hoping for a response maybe tonight if he checks in. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed aka #4 Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 I have a pair of saddles as in the picture, price is $250.00. The reason for that price is that I'm looking for a pair that's similar (different mount and the mount is around 2" up from the bottom) and I hope to find them for the same figure or of course less, but will pay whatever I have to when I find the ones I'm looking for . I'd love to see these get a correct/good home. If I could guarantee to get mine cheaper these would be cheaper. Ed Archer aka #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 Thanks for your wonderful offer Ed, but I've been working on an "aftermarket" set that I've dreamed up myself. I've built a working model and just need the machine shop, which I cannot find one yet that is affordable to me, to fabricate the two right and left stanchions. I will try to post the photo's of what i have so far. I bought the "saddles" and leather straps from Snyder's Antique Auto parts. They are Ford Model T saddles. I should be able to safely secure my top for short money, since money is a great issue right now for me, and many Americans in the near future I believe. Shown is the wooden prototype, full scale, keyed for the body socket and shaft is offset a few degrees where the repro Ford top saddles and straps will be fastened with a simple set screw, keeping a parallel plane to the body of the Dodge. The shafts are to be secured in the body sockets with a simple hex bolt and washer as seen in photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 (edited) On 4/10/2012 at 8:49 PM, RAH said: Pete, The major reason you may be having trouble finding saddles for your '25 is that somewhere in '24 those were no longer offered as standard equipment and were only offered at dealers as accessories. Earlier cars (pre '23) saddles were standard part of the car. So, there are less of those '24 to '28 saddles available today. Rodger "Dodger" Rodger, of course I do recognize you as a DB expert of renown, but may I suggest that the top saddles became optional equipment earlier than '24. Jim Mallars (RIP) said his dad told him it happened in late '21 or '22, as a result of the 1921 recession. As with many things DB, apparently changes were phased in over a period of time. My '22 touring (manufactured in late November of 1922), which seemed to be rather original, had no saddles and had the factory cover plates and bolts installed instead. Edit: I looked it up in the 1928 Master Parts List. The top rests were standard equipment until November 21, 1921 on touring cars and until January 5, 1922 on roadsters. I was very lucky to have DB forum member, gentleman and scholar Warren Seeley of Phoenix, AZ sell me the correct saddles for my car at a very reasonable price. Thank you so much, Warren. Edited August 7, 2020 by 22touring (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 Hi Pete, That's an interesting idea. Are these the top saddles/straps you plan to use? https://snydersantiqueauto.com/ProductDetail/WEB-KIT-0453_TOP-SADDLES?fromCategory=SearchByKeyword https://snydersantiqueauto.com/ProductDetail/T-3876-PE_EARLY-TOP-SADDLE-PADS-STRAPS?fromCategory=SearchByKeyword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 18, 2020 Author Share Posted August 18, 2020 Hey Mike, Sorry for the slow response, been away from my computer. Yes! those are the same type Ford repro saddles I have, but the leather straps I got are like the ones shown in these photo's here. These black straps are longer since they need to go around quite a circumference, and I suppose I can cut them down if I really need to, haven't got that far yet, still working on brakes. If this works, I'll certainly post it. Still searching for an affordable machine shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Thanks Pete. I think your design could be easily turned on a lathe and then bent to the angle. That's how I made these which are only meant to be temporary, I used split angle bushings to hold them in place which is easier than having to key them I think. I believe this is how the factory ones were mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 18, 2020 Author Share Posted August 18, 2020 Very interesting Mike! Please tell me, are the split angle bushings you are using, (the ones we can buy today), "keyed" to fit into the key-way body socket? I assume your '25 has the same riveted-in body sockets as mine, which are keyed, refer to my wood model in previous post, 180 degree shallow key ways on the top & bottom of the socket. How are you mating your new piece to the split bushings? Are you planning on any straps to hold the bows when folded down to your brackets? Your time with this "questionnaire" is greatly appreciated Mike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) Hi Pete, I don't remember seeing anything resembling a key in the riveted on socket but I'll remove one of the supports and take a look. The rod has a threaded section on the other end that goes through the center hole of the split bushings and then the shoulder on the rod and nut on the threads squeeze the split bushing. The angled faces of the bushing try to offset as the nut is tightened and result in a clamping force inside the socket. I thought I made a cross section sketch of this but can't locate it at the moment. When I made these I wasn't really sure what I was going to do as far as securing the folded top other than some sort of strap and buckle. I really just made then as a temporary way to let me drive the car with the top irons folded down. I think I would make something similar to your idea if using the Snyder's saddles. It will give me something to work on over the winter... P.S. I found this sketch where I got the idea... Edited August 18, 2020 by MikeC5 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 Thanks again for your efforts with this topic Mike. From what I can see from the drawing, it seems the "new" bracket is to mate an original top saddle and to "raise" that saddle to accommodate a 4 door touring top bow assembly. I believe the artist has a set of some other saddles, since a '25 touring saddle needs to have the cast-in mounting hole very close to the bottom, to get proper height to load the bows in it and stay above the spare tire at rear! There are photo's on Google Images of the proper saddles to show what I'm talking about. You'll also see a couple of images of wrong saddles on restored touring's, not offset either, so their saddles are at a funny angle, not perpendicular to the side of the car! I'd like to see the bows get tucked into those. I wish my budget would allow me to buy a real set of originals, so I'll keep working on my Frankenstein saddles I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Hi Pete, the sketch was just to show the split bushing detail and the concept of bending a straight rod to suit one's own configuration. As you say, the height of the top saddle that bolts onto the rod will control how close the folded top comes to the rear tire. And it's not like the top folds down flat; it blocks much of the rear view. I think I'll need a pair of those wide angle mirrors to stick to the side wings.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 20, 2020 Author Share Posted August 20, 2020 Wow, I never even thought about the restricted rear mirror view with top folded down. I don't think the previous owner ever had the top down at all, since there were no trace of him having the top saddles. I searched everywhere in every shed he had. I DID find the tool kit which I'm thinking it is the original "large" array of tools, all wrapped up in the canvas roll bag. Enough tools to take the whole blumin' car apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 (edited) Hi Pete, I came across this photo I had taken at Hershey a few years back. It's from a '25 Dodge that had won a AACA National 1st several years ago, so I'm pretty sure it is correct. Note how low the top folds relative to the belt line. It would have been interesting to see what it looked like folded down. I'm guessing the rear window and curtain must rest on top of the spare and get pushed up to some degree. Edited August 22, 2020 by MikeC5 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 i have a pair of the top clamps the is in this picture above for sale george 406-5432591 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 (edited) I was just browsing parts on eBay and came across some saddles. The sellers name is db-racer. He has quite a few on there for sale but I’m not sure if they will sui. Worth a look as they are not expensive. This is one set. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/383393421988 Edited August 22, 2020 by Mattml430 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePedals Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 I'm in the same boat here with my search for information and saddles. My DB Touring car was built in November 1924. From what I've been told, the correct saddles had the number 314 (L & R) cast into them for '24 and '25. Ed aka #4, I am very interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayG Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 Here's a set that I picked up in Hershey a few years back. They were tagged as DB Roadster and the guy I bought them from verified that. I don't know what kind of expert he was but these are going on my 25 Roadster. They are marked 498. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 23, 2020 Author Share Posted August 23, 2020 Wow, a lot of great replies. Hey Mike, nice photo's! But, I'm the last person to ever question a judge of autos at Hershey...but I believe those top saddles are WRONG for that car. The owner can never insert his top bows into those saddles, as the bows will not BEND several INCHES at that, to bed them into the saddles and pull the bail down to lock them in. It is quite obvious the spare is in the way. I know for a fact the '25 (and probably others) have the saddle mounting boss hole near the very bottom of the saddle, where the ones shown are bolted to the car in the middle of saddle, not having enough vertical height to load the top bows in and miss the spare tire. I don't know how that judging show is set up, the Model A guys go on a 500 point system I believe and to win all 500 points, I think they need 1930 air in the original tires! I'm sure the Dodge owner fully deserves first place, as I see his Dodge looks to be an extensive restoration, God love him. I can only wish mine was as nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 JayG, your '25 roadster should have 191 by my notes. I have said this before, but here's a good place for it again. If anyone ever sees a catalog for top irons I would like a copy or original for the DBC collection of literature. The manufacturer name was Bare or Bear, or Behr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) I had a bunch of those I sold and they were stamped Bair Edited August 23, 2020 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 OK, that's it. We need a catalog. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayG Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 Looks like my DB expert wasn't. Anyway they should work for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePedals Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 If I ever find a correct set (DB 314s in my case), I promise to look into having them recast or better yet 3D printed in metal, of course. This is clearly a difficult acquisition for so many of us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, nearchoclatetown said: OK, that's it. We need a catalog. early ad on ebay currently if interested Edited August 23, 2020 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 You're probably right Pete; assuming those are the correct saddles seems like a stretch. Maybe the AACA library can help with the search on what part number and a photo or drawing. I'll try contacting them and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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