Guest KeithElwell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 <!-- google_ad_section_start -->My first new thread post so forgive me if I booger it up.I'm interested in exchanging info with anyone out there who is currently or has recently replaced the wood in the door of a 1936 Buick, particularly a Model 46 Business Coupe but other series and prior years and other GM cars could be applicable.I know about David Entler but I can't afford the price. I gotta figure a way to do this myself - with help.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> Anybody willing to exchange info? (JoelsBuicks looks to be an excellent contact) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groselle Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I rewooded all four doors on my 1936 Special Sedan using the kit from David Entler. I was going to do it myself but decided it would be faster just to buy the kit. If the wood in your doors is in good enough condition to use as a pattern then it's probably doable. Some of the vertical pieces are a bit tricky in that they are not square in cross section (more of a trapezoid). Even with the kit from Entler it took a lot of fitting and trimming to get the fit right. You can see some pictures on my blog below and I'd be happy to send you more if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dkhunt Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I've got to refurbish the rear doors on my '36 so I'm looking for answers as well!---I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?g32oelSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dkhunt Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Who's David Entler? Google doesn't know. ---I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?a0mleoSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BJM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yes, who is David Entler? I have a 36 Roadmaster needing door wood. Someone used his name like he was well known but I have nver heard of him. Please advise or get him to comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groselle Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 This is a few years old but the last contact info I have for him is:David Entlerdjentler@msn.com10903 N. Main St. ExtGlen Rock, PA 17327-8373 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KeithElwell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 David Entler Restorations1933 - 1936 GM Body Wood717-235-2112717-968-2751 cellI have not purchased from him nor seen his work. So I cannot comment on the product either way. Just passing along the contact info I obtained.I obtained a quote from him last week of $750 per door for my 1936 Buick Model 46 Coupe plus 15% for shipping and crating. This comes to $1725. At this point I cannot justify that expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Keith,I'm no expert on wood, but I did make a couple of pieces for my '49 Buick wagon; a cowl piece for a '34 Buick; and did some wood installation on a '28 Franklin when I was at McPherson College and had access to their wood-working shop. You need access to lots of wood-working equipment: Table saw; band saw; dado blades; drill press; router; chipper; jointer; scroll saw; power sander; etc. If you have that, or can hire a local carpenter who has that equipment, then the next most important thing is to remove the original wood and save it for patterns and measurements. You will need all of the measuring tools: Tri-squares; rulers; carpenter's level; protractor; compass; etc. to get the angles and lengths and widths and joints just right. If you don't get them right, you can insert tiny wedges and slivers of wood to make it right when you reassemble everything. If you don't have the original wood to go by, or too much of it is rotted away, then you have to do some guesswork or find another similar car from which to take measurements and drawings. I have a 1935 50-series rumble seat coupe in my garage in Sherman right now, if you want to come up there and look at it, since you are pretty close by. I have the interior door panel off of it (to replace the glass), so all of the door wood is exposed right now.I hope this helps a little. I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, but I'm trying to impart what little I know about wood replacement in old cars, since no one else has jumped in on this yet, other than "see David Entler".Pete Phillips, BCA #7338Leonard, TX.1949 Super Estate Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Pete is offering very good advice here. Wthout all the woodworking tools, it will be very difficult to replicate your wood even if you have good patterns. When I replaced the windshield header boards in my 29 Buick it took an entire day to make the two wood pieces. I was lucky to have a friend with a full wood working shop with all the tools needed to do the job.I have not done this, but I have been told that if you have minor rot or punky wood you can try epoxy injection to harden the wood. Basically, you mix two part epoxy in a very thin solution to be injected and absorbed into the soft wood. When it hardens, it is structurally strong and will take nails and screws. But will also firmly attach the wood to the steel skin of the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BJM Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 David Entler Restorations1933 - 1936 GM Body Wood717-235-2112717-968-2751 cellI obtained a quote from him last week of $750 per door for my 1936 Buick Model 46 Coupe plus 15% for shipping and crating. This comes to $1725. At this point I cannot justify that expense. Too much for me too. I'm going to try doing it myself. It makes me gohhhmm that manufacturers built millions of cars using wood framing with technology that is now at least 75 years old and they certainly did not have the tools Pete describes. Although not original, I have contemplated having the local restoration shop weld a piece of metal across the bottom of the doors (internal/not seen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelsBuicks Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Excepting only about 6 pieces that were still worthy, I replaced all of the wood in my '36 Roadmaster. At the time, I had a fully equipped woodshop and when I first met my Roadmaster, I figured this would be a softball pitch right up my power alley. I was wrong. While I found that no cut was beyond my ability, I allowed myself to be fooled by two important facts that unfortunately stayed elusive far too long. The first is that old wood will distort and warp and the second and most important is that you cannot replicate the original method by which these doors received their wood frames. That is, you cannot build a wood frame and fit the metal onto it - you have to build the frame, one piece at a time, and understand from the beginning, just how it will join with the other pieces that make up the total frame. Knowledge of the joining and the assembly sequence will impact the final shape of the pieces. Now I will tell you that I have all of those tools that Pete mentioned and they are heavy duty. I also have a sawmill and solar kiln and I tell people that I start my projects with a chainsaw. I chose white oak, felled in Missouri and a cypress that a friend pulled out of the Mississippi River in Memphis. Both woods offer great rot resistance but the oak is for strength and the cypress is for the horizontal boards that accept all the hardware for the door latch and window regulators. With plenty of wood and plenty of hardware, I set my sights on duplicating the badly decayed "patterns."I should note that upon removal of the old wood, I was first compelled to get the metal skins back in shape. This took a lot of time, doing gentle blasting and metal replacement at the bottom of all the doors. I had already bent back the nailing tabs along the metal jambs to get the old wood out and I also had to separate the metal jambs at the top corners of the doors - originally these were brazed. It is almost shocking just how flimsy and twisty the metal skin and jamb are without its skeletal wood. In fact, I began to get concerned about ever getting the doors built back without imparting some unintentional twist. After checking on my '36 series 90, I knew that the top of these doors had the same plane as the bottom of the doors and so I built a wooden cradle that held the metal skins such that there would be no twist.I started making the new wood pieces by laying the old atop the new and tracing. Nothing seemed to be fitting right and so I began to question the old wood and sure enough, most pieces had warped, curled, or twisted. I started used 1/4" plywood and with a hand plane, I would duplicate the curvature of the metal and then use the plywood as the pattern. I did this for all of the remaining wood and got very good results. In making the many cuts required for the wood pieces, it becomes important to know the sequence of the cuts. For example, you don't want to cut away a square or flat face of a board only to find out you needed the flat face first to facilitate making another cut. And, every cut is important dimensionally because in the final assembly, hardware for the wing glass, window channels, window garnish, window regulator and door latch all have to fit and work together. When I finally got around to being ready for gluing the pieces into each door, I first did a dry run rehearsal. With a pencil and paper I noted each step and then religiously followed the steps when the glue was wet. You only get one chance. So why do I tell you about all of this? In short, to warn you. It goes back to what I said at the start. I would have called myself an expert woodworker and with all the right tools but it seemed to demand even more than that. It was just mentally exhausting. But with these old Buicks still calling to me, I'll someday be doing it all over again and hopefully retired by then.I wish you the best of luck, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I replaced some of the wood in a '35 Pierce coupe, using white ash. Easy to work (when "fresh" so to speak) and over time hardens, to the point it's hard to drill.I, too, had a friend's two car garage full of every woodworking tool available. Wood has to be planed and shaped to get thickness and, as mentioned, curves. The more tools the better. Just like upholstery, the original pieces should be used for a guide and for clues to construction, but not as a pattern, as everything changes over time (I know I sure do!).I would disagree with the statement that the automobile manufacturers didn't have fully equipped woodworking shops. Of course they did. And, they had the advantage of building from new, using patterns, building the wood framework first then applying the metal skin.........plus, a lot of people were expert woodworkers at that time, and in these modern times it's more of a specialized skill.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscheib Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Having watched a shop buikl two complete frames and repair three more, even with proper tools, I concur with the last two posts. Very time consuming and thus costly. So, it can be done at home, if you are quite good and have the tools.For BJM, they did have the tools, but quite a few were manual and run from shaft and belt drive rather then our modern battery powered portables, but the job was done. By the way, hot-rodders have been replacing the wood with metal framing since he cars were only 15-20 years old and the wood likely in much better condition then today.Finally, what would I have done if my Buick had not been inside most all its life, and not had good wood? I am not sure but it would have cost a lot more to have done, and the car may not yet be restored.John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Too much for me too. I'm going to try doing it myself. It makes me gohhhmm that manufacturers built millions of cars using wood framing with technology that is now at least 75 years old and they certainly did not have the tools Pete describes. Although not original, I have contemplated having the local restoration shop weld a piece of metal across the bottom of the doors (internal/not seen).They most certainly had virtually all the tools we have now actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 We have been doing automotive wood working for 33 years. Everything from Packard convertibles to a complete Cretors Popcorn Vending wagon to antique truck bodies to our current project reproducing Buick Woodie wood and '49 Olds Woodie wood. Anyone who thinks it's easy hasn't done it. Trivia...an L29 Cord Conv has 103 individual pieces of wood in the body not including the doors or the rumble lid. Yes you can do it if you have the tools and a basic knowledge of woodworking but expect to spend 4 times as many hours on the project as you first thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BJM Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Restorer32. I did not mean to imply it was easy but it is defined. I think this wood discussion needed to happen. There is a lot of good information here and I have read every comment carefully. I knew ahead of time that my Roadmaster was a wood framed car, so I have only myself to blame. Des Moines (Iowa) has an excellent woodworking retail store for guys into wood as a hobby. The wood kits made by the fellow in Pennsylvania are expensive, but he has purchased the tools and done the patterns. If I go out and buy all these tools, then I would probably have the same amount of money and I don't plan on doing another wood project so those wood specific tools would be sold at a fraction of the cost on Craigs List. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KeithElwell Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Fellow AACA Forum Posters (all of you):I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the input from every one of you. The input here and possibly more to follow is exactly what I was hoping to achieve; open discussion over personal experiences and lessons learned from "doing the wood" ourselves versus buying "kits" and tweaking them. Getting the job done and getting the car on the road.I will definitely be contacting some of you directly to learn still more on this topic, if you don't mind. But for me to eat up more space and electrons on the forum may not make sense for my detail questions and discussions.Thanks again very much to everyone. This forum is execellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dkhunt Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Heck, keep it going -- I'm doing mine myself! Not to sound like I'm tooting my own horn but I'm usually pretty good at figuring things out and the advice and insight that has been put forth on this thread is definitely helpful. I'm "stocking" my shop as I can... and I'd rather buy the tools and do it myself instead of buying a kit... that's the whole idea of getting this cool old car back on the road! The good news is that my front doors were completely redone before I got the car -- and the guy did a great job... plus my rear doors aren't too bad so I've got good patterns to go by. Pete - thanks for the offer to come see yours -- if I find myself anywhere near you, I'll contact you and see if you're available. Google says I'm a little over 5.5 hrs away from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buckfarmer Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Just a quick note. I have recently undertaken the replacement of the wood in a 1930 model 64 roadster. My experience has been that it takes a lot of time and patience to make these pieces. I have spent somewhere around 500 hours on the wood in my car and am not finished yet. I still have the front seat frame to complete. I am not an expert wood worker, just a hobbyist with a lot of patience and TIME. I do not have expert tools, my most used tool is a $200 ryobi bandsaw from homedepot. I use rulers and squares and calipers endlessly for measureing. When something cannot be traced I make a line every inch and measure then transpose the measurement to the piece. When what I call a "compound curve" comes up I cut one part with my trusty bandsaw and then complete with a draw knife the other plane of the curve. As mentioned above all the pieces that you take out of the door will not always be true (bent, warped or twisted). I strongly encourage you to doubt every piece, I know at least 3 times I spent 2 days manufacturing a difficult piece only to find a out a week later that it is wrong and won't work. Also it can be easier to take pieces from the left of the car and trace them to make the right and then take the right and trace them to make the left. I found this let me have more traceable curves (when I trusted the piece was true). Good luckI am sure there is more but I am note a strong typerNeil Edited April 1, 2012 by buckfarmer (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 We do quite a bit of woodworking on our milling machine, including cutting finger joints. Dead on accurate. We also built a large (4' x 8' ) 3 axis tracing router using CNC slides and bearings. Makes duplicating compound curves much easier. Surprisingly I still have all my fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buckfarmer Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Restorer32Do you have any pictures of your 3 axis tracing router, I am curiours?Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autodeco57 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Keith,I did a rear door for a 36 a long time ago but I don't remember much in the way of specifics. A couple of things I will say about wood coachwork in general...there's always got to be a reference to theoretical plumb and square, but by 36 things were so rounded and compounded that it's literally just that; theoretical. In order to maintain your reference to curves and angles out of sync with the base planes, it's sometimes helpful to bandsaw a contour maintaining both the component and the waste piece intact and then tape them back together to continue to use the original square surface for further layout and saw operations. The previous comment about using the door latch and hinge pillars for layout instead of tracing the deteriorated door post itself is right on...that's what it has to fit finally. The 36 door I did way back when was an hour and a half away from me and I thought I could bring it to my shop and duplicate the pieces, then just take it back and slap it on. Boy was I wrong! The contour was wrong by a couple of inches at the bottom. Possums and racoons could have walked through the gap. One other thing; Minwax makes a system called Penetrating Wood Preservative that is almost magically good. It's one of those products that's way better than they claim. It acts like a catalytic mixed resin but it requires no mixing. If wood is surface-soft but borderline usable, using a junk brush, paint this stuff on and keep adding coats until it flashes off. At that point the stuff (along with the brush, can, and anything you're drizzled on your pants) hardens instantly. It's one of those liquids designed to be wetter than water so it penetrates fast and deep (I forget what they call that but it's like agricultural spray enhancers). Anyway, it soaks deep into the wood and plasticizes it when it goes off. One drawback is that it doesn't re-infuse fiber strength like the original. It will stop deterioration, allow drilling and milling, accept filling and coating, but it will still be more brittle than it was originally. It's outstanding for stuff like the window winder panels that are marginal with frayed corners and busted screw hole locations along the edge. Sometimes you can re-use something like that if you can toughen it up just enough to glue repair pieces on and keep it from deteriorating any more.Also, regarding the duplicating router discussion, there was a guy with a site on the web who ponied up a repeating carver using regular hardware store items. He was selling plans for it and I bought a set. I had looked into buying a Master Carver (furniture industry repeating router system with multiple router heads) so I knew a little bit about the concept. I was pretty impressed with what he came up with pretty low tech and low bucks. In one of our later interactions, I learned that he was sick and I was actually dealing with his wife. I haven't been back in a long time, but if he's still up and running, I think you could find him with search terms like duplicating carver. If that turns out to be a dead end, get back to me and I'll dig out my hardcopy stuff. By the way, I ended up making a double station repeating router system out of three Sears Router/Crafters. Gives you the simultaneous indexing system you need to keep the original and two copies registered together. There are tons of those things out there...thousands of guys got them for fathers' day and I don't think anyone ever used them for what they were designed for (spindles, screw threads, etc.)Steve Gorthy BCA #445101931 Buick Model 87 Southern Oregon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelod Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I had to replace about 1/3 of the wood in my 1930 Buick model 68 5-window coupe due to the fact that a termite colony had a field day in there. Fortunately I have in the past restored a lot of high-end antique furniture and have a pretty complete set of woodworking machinery in my garage. Nevertheless reproducing all the various components was very time consuming as Neil mentioned. One of my favorite tools for this process was a stationary disk/spindle sander. After I cut out the basic shape of the piece, I used the sander to "grind" them into their final shape with a LOT of trial fitting. This was especially true for those components having compound curves. I felt I was more of a sculptor than a woodworker at that point. Some of the wood was eaten away to the point where it was totally non-existent and thus I had no patterns available. I had no access to any pictures at that point, so I just focused on what I needed to accomplish and attempted to design in such a way that the goal was met. At some time later, I did in fact acquire some photos of the area in question that was specific to my car and as luck would have it my design was dead-on accurate with respect to the original. I would agree with what has been said here by others; you need a full complement of woodworking tools if you are planning to do decent work. Another tip is be sure to use well seasoned wood when doing this. Don't plan on grabbing something from Home Depot that is fresh out of the kiln as you may have problems with shrinkage/movement once you have created a given structural member. If that occurs, panel alignment may become a real issue.Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BJM Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I was in Lincoln Nebraska this week on business and a used (very used) car lot had a 36 Buick 4 door for sale, incomplete, looked like a 4 door Special. I looked at the drivers door and there was wood in the door. All the doors were complete and in much better shape then my doors, even the bottoms. But I noted that the wood in the drivers front door was solid all the way across through the mid section down to the bottom? I thought wood was used to frame the doors only. I will go back to Lincoln this week and will take some photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pplaut Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I have all new door wood for my 1936 Buick model 40 sedan. However the doors were in such bad shape I have no model to go by for Re installation.Does anybody have the process from beginning to end had a put the door wood back in this skin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan strait Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 I also have a 3 window 36 series 46 coupe that needs drivers door wood please help . Thanks for the conversation. Great to hear about this issue. Bryan from NW Ohio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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