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vwlfan

Need 1915 Standard Eight cooling piping fabrication

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Any idea on what I would need to do to remove the water pump? I have a 1915/1916 Standard Instruction Manual but the only information related to the water pump is that the pump is driven from the cross engine shaft.

I have all of the packing nut free and off and also have the hold down bracket free and off. As you can see in the picture I have also been able to free and remove the nut which connects to the flange on the engine case/tower. Even with everything loose the pump is still firmly in place. Not knowing exactly how it comes out I have not exerted much force the pump or shaft.

Do you think the cross shaft would be one solid piece from the water pump to the generator, with some type of worm gear drive within the engine case? Or would the cross shaft be split at the engine case with one shaft each for the water pump and generator?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. - Bob

There are additional detailed pictures of the water pump if you click on the photo below:

1915_Standard_Cooling2-10.JPG

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The Peerless engine has a yoke and fiber coupling driving the water pump and generator.

I understand exactly what you describe. The HS V8s in our local club's 1920 and 1922 Standards have the yoke and fiber coupling one each for driving the water pump and generator.

This early 1915 HS V8 has a "solid" cross shaft running both the water pump and generator. I say solid as I don't know yet if the cross shaft is actually on continuous piece or if it is two shafts which then meet in the front engine case.

The only way I can see to remove the front half of the engine case/tower would be to split the tower which looks like it would require lifting the motor up or out to then be able to remove the cross shaft if was really one piece.

I have one of the flanges loose on the engine case but have not attempted to remove/pry it loose yet. That looks like this afternoons project. - Bob

Edited by vwlfan (see edit history)

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Bob, I told you to go look at those old tractors..

This is a great picture which seems to show your exact engine. It also shows that the manufacturer likely picks out there own generator and starter (they are not in the photo) but the water pump comes "fixed for life".

1917spillmanad.jpg

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Last night I got a chance to do some hands on research related to the Standard water pump and the water pumps cross shaft drive using the local club's 1920 Standard Touring as reference. Since the club's 1920 Standard is in the midst of a full restoration I was able to remove the engine nose cover to see how the water pump/generator cross shaft was driven.

As with this 1920 Standard the later Herschell Spillman engines as used in Standards used a rag joint to connect the cross engine power shaft to both the water pump and generator. This makes water pump removal much simpler as the front engine cover does not need to be removed. But because the 1915 HS engine has one solid shaft from water pump, though the engine case, then to the generator it appears the front engine cover will need to be removed to be able to remove the water pump and shaft as one piece.

This photos shows the internal gear which pickups the rotation of the engine to power the cross shaft to the water pump and generator. We could see there was a small key between this gear and then 180 degrees from the key a set screw which went through the gear to/into the shaft.

As usual there are more photos available by clicking the picture below:

1920_Standard_Water_Pump-013.JPG

In this photo we have partially pulled out one of the side sealing plates to reveal the key between the drive gear and the cross shaft. It appears the side sealing plates butt right up to the drive gear and keep it centered.

We could not get the set screw removed from the gear so that we could then try and remove the gear.

At this point I may defer removing the water pump and just put the cooling system back together and test everything first once the cooling tubes are finished. If at this point the water pump would have any issues I will then know what I need to do to remove the water pump. - Bob

1920_Standard_Water_Pump-020.JPG

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Looking on-line I found a 3 page article from May 1917 in "The Automobile". It actually shows the 4, 6, and 8 cylinder Herschell-Spillman motor specifications. The article also talks about both V8 models.

There is an interesting note that there is the ability to hook up an air hose to the back of the fan shaft? Maybe a small compressor was located there at one time?

HS4CylinderV8.JPG

HS4Cylinder.JPG

HS4CylinderV82.JPG

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Interesting engine! I live in Sweden and have the remains of an early 1916 Daniels which has a Hersell-Spillman engine. My cooling pipes seem ok, but a closer look may reveal the same problems as you have. Please tell me if you find someone who can make new pipes! I’ll try my contacts in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com><st1:country-region alt=</st1:country-region>Sweden</ST1:p. I've tried to enclose two pictures, don't know if it worked!

According the information about Daniels; Chassis # 101-107 were made 1915, 108-249 in 1916, 141 produced that year. My car has # 164. It's a seven passenger dual phaeton, a body style which isn't mentioned anywere in any literature about 1916.

There are 14-15 known Daniels cars, two in Europe and the rest in US.

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Hi Gunnar1940,

Great to hear you have an early Daniels, which did use the Herschell Spillman V8 engines.

Thanks for offering to check on cooling pipes. I did find someone, an AACA member, to fabricate a set of tubes for me. He is even in the same state so I would even call that local.

Your pictures did not display with your post. It would be great to see some photos of your Daniels. A dual phaeton would be a sharp car. If you need any help posting your pictures let me know (check your Private Messages PM) - Bob

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These forums are amazing. Years go by with no mention of a Herschell Spillman engine and now quite a bit of questioning and answering which can only further the collective knowledge and appreciation of these relatively rare motors.

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Here are some pictures of the Herschell Spillman V8 from the 1916 Daniels of Gunnar1940:

Gunnar1940:"Some pictures taken today in my garage. Great to chat with someone who has the same problems. As you can see, the guy who dismantled my engine didn’t succeed in taking the water pump apart!"

I am glad I was not the only one who did not get the water pump off on first try. - Bob

post-73619-14313891972_thumb.jpg

post-73619-143138919738_thumb.jpg

post-73619-143138919757_thumb.jpg

post-73619-143138919775_thumb.jpg

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This 1917 ad certainly uses the name Chummy for the roadster you have. The heading on this page is 4 passenger roadsters. The description lists the Standard Eight in the picture as a cloverleaf but others use the word Chummy. This body style looks just like Bob's 1915. This comes from "The Automobile, Vol 36, Jan 4, 1917"

TheAutomobileVol36A.JPG

books?id=CSNaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA31&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0f_XJBMYRWK8dbQDQ5eFCDryW11w&ci=8%2C3%2C979%2C1294&edge=0

Edited by kghia (see edit history)

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When we first looked at the ignition, other than being wired wrong, we were concerned when we didn't see a magneto. The later Standard cars were to have the Splitdorf Dixie magneto (listed in the 1918 Dykes table). Later Standards could have really used the Splitdorf Aero magneto which was designed for 8 and 12 cylinders.

A 1920s auto ignition manual states the Dixie is used for 4 & 6 cylinders - i guess the 8 & 12 needed a dual circuit inside and actually spin faster than the dixie so that there are enough spark cycles.

The 1918 Dyke's references a Westinghouse ignition for the earlier Herschell Spillman V8. After doing some research it looks like the Westinghouse unit was a more modern battery and coil type ignition. Some other articles help to confirm this. So while the distributor might be a little newer in the 1915 Standard, its location and type is correct.

The photos suggest that this vertically integrated ignition was usually tied to the generator but could be mounted separate. The model designation seems to be a Westinghouse Type SC.

TheAutomobileVol36.JPG

Westinghouse.JPG

Edited by kghia (see edit history)

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Wow, so much for my comment "standard modern ignition". I got out my Dykes 1918 Bible and figured this ignition has to be in there. The diagrams show that the coil located in the distributor. I bet that held up well. Now I understand why they went with a separate coil. Really good information on how this ignition worked.

I guess when it says Westinghouse ignition it included the dash switches. There is a nice view of the fuse block that would have been with that system. It is likely the glass fuses on the firewall of the 15 Standard are not the original.

WestinghouseSCIgnitionsmall.JPG

WestinghouseSCIgnitionASmall.JPG

Edited by kghia (see edit history)

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