barn find

[Guest rockerarm]

I recently aquired this old piece of saw mill equipment...

It looks to be a 1926 Dodge Brothers engine and trans used to operate a big drum winch. Used in a northern Alabama saw mill to haul big logs up a hill.

The engine is stuck but all else is in really nice condition, and it seems to be complete down to the unusual air cleaner. It was in use until 1969 when the mill owner passed away, stored in a barn since.

I'm not sure what I will do with it yet. It's neat just as it is but would be fun to restore and display.

[Guest 1930]

That is neat and great pict.

Whomever put that together did it right, nice workmanship on the mounting

[R.White]

Looks like a real nice find. I think it may have suffered severe frost damage and someone took the trouble to repair the cracks. Those pictures are proving helpful already.

I could do with a spare engine!!

Only joking - shipping costs to the U.K. would kill it.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Guest hwess]

KEEP IT AS IS! Only clean up and possibly get it running. Grest piece of history

[R.White]

Is that an inspection cover to the left of the water pump?

[Guest rockerarm]

Is that an inspection cover to the left of the water pump?

I am curious about that area also. It is part of the iron block casting and is designed to be a mounting surface for something cylindrical, perhaps a magneto...?

There appears to be a shaft present coming from within the engine.

Perhaps someone who is better versed on these old Dodge engines can shed some light on that.

Will.

[1936 D2]

Hey - I wonder if you could give this whole thing the "Evapo-rust" treatment ( http://forums.aaca.org/f143/evapo-rust-experiment-week-321787.html and http://forums.aaca.org/f143/evapo-rust-part-ii-experiment-324084.html )? Chest freezer anyone?

Edited March 18, 2012 by 1936 D2
added link (see edit history)

[R.White]

OF COURSE!! The cylindrical object you thought might be a magneto would be the North East 6 volt generator which should be connected to the water pump shaft by a yoke with two rubber discs. I can't quite make out what is attached to the water pump shaft instead. It looks a bit like a 3 speed p.t.o. or drive for something. Where abouts is the shaft coming out the engine?

You probably have a "C" engine with five main bearings from a 116 (6volt 2 unit) model. If you give me the number stamped on the engine (carburettor side) I should be able to tell you the exact date when it was made.

Ray.

[Texacola]

Ray...your correct...that is a boss for mounting the 6 v generator.My "C" motor is identical.Do you have an engine date chart?..never seen one.I've only seen serial # date charts and add 50k+ to get an engine date range. By 9/26 my engine is about 71K higher than the serial #. Bill

[Guest rockerarm]

OF COURSE!! The cylindrical object you thought might be a magneto would be the North East 6 volt generator which should be connected to the water pump shaft by a yoke with two rubber discs. I can't quite make out what is attached to the water pump shaft instead. It looks a bit like a 3 speed p.t.o. or drive for something. Where abouts is the shaft coming out the engine?

You probably have a "C" engine with five main bearings from a 116 (6volt 2 unit) model. If you give me the number stamped on the engine (carburettor side) I should be able to tell you the exact date when it was made.

Ray.

Thanks for the info Ray,

I have posted a close picture of the generator mount area with what appears to be the end of a shaft in the block. Also, the output end of the water pump has a coller with a zerk, (grease), fitting.

The numbers on the block are...... C 816-743

[R.White]

Nice clear photo, Will. I think the end of what appears to be a shaft is correct for these engines but like you say, we need to hear from someone who has had one apart to inform us.

Do you think you will get the engine running as a stationary unit? With the air intake passing through the block, it would be a head scratcher even for mechanics!!

Edited March 19, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[R.White]

Hello again Rockerarm,

Just working back from my own engine which is C 861 425 that matches chassis no. A791 - 370 and dates between 5th and 15th October, your engine No. 816 - 743, pre - dates mine by 44, 682 - which locates it to a chassis laid down between the 14th and 21st August 1926.

I have not double checked but Texacola should be able to confirm this using his engine and chassis numbers; providing they have good provenance.

Ray.

[Guest rockerarm]

Do you think you will get the engine running as a stationary unit? With the air intake passing through the block, it would be a head scratcher even for mechanics!!

The biggest issue is that the engine is stuck, won't turn. I have soaked the cylinders with diesel fuel and with P-B blaster with no success yet.

The intake system is pretty unique on these engines, I had to look at it for awile, but I don't think it will be a big effort to get to work. It seems to be complete. The air filter is very interesting. It has a vented dome cover with a fan type impeller inside that moves with air volicity, manufactured by "Unity". I though it was some type of supercharger at first.

If I could get it to run I would likely restore the unit. I'm unsure about how much effort to put into it as it is not really in my relm of interest. Still a very interesting unit though. I would be interested in locating a generator and radiator cap for it.

[Guest 1930]

Do you think you will get the engine running as a stationary unit? With the air intake passing through the block, it would be a head scratcher even for mechanics!!

The biggest issue is that the engine is stuck, won't turn. I have soaked the cylinders with diesel fuel and with P-B blaster with no success yet.

The intake system is pretty unique on these engines, I had to look at it for awile, but I don't think it will be a big effort to get to work. It seems to be complete. The air filter is very interesting. It has a vented dome cover with a fan type impeller inside that moves with air volicity, manufactured by "Unity". I though it was some type of supercharger at first.

If I could get it to run I would likely restore the unit. I'm unsure about how much effort to put into it as it is not really in my relm of interest. Still a very interesting unit though. I would be interested in locating a generator and radiator cap for it.

I am assuming we are no where near one another ( I am in Florida ) but I would love to get ahold of that and play around with it. It needs to stay together as is and be displayed somewhere that people could view.

[R.White]

The first thing I would say is that I don't know how much experience you have so if it sounds like I'm trying to preach to the converted, so to speak, please take it with a pinch of salt. You say the engine is still stuck despite putting diesel and P - B blaster in? Why not try out that Evapo - Rust?

These engines have a blanking plug which fits over the end of the crankshaft and is removed with the square end on the starting handle. This has fooled many a man who may have thought that the engine was stuck! Unlikely, I know.

Secondly, if the piston rings have rusted to the cylinder walls, then any attempt to free them may well result in breakages which will scour the cylinder walls with any attempt to start the engine; making a rebore or even a resleve necessary. So as soon as the engine is freed, the pistons need to be checked. New rings are cheap! Take the opportunity to clean out the oilways and check the white metal bearings.

Cheers,

Ray.

Edited March 19, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Guest rockerarm]

These engines have a blanking plug which fits over the end of the crankshaft and is removed with the square end on the starting handle

Secondly, if the piston rings have rusted to the cylinder walls, then any attempt to free them may well result in breakages which will scour the cylinder walls with any attempt to start the engine; making a rebore or even a resleve necessary. So as soon as the engine is freed, the pistons need to be checked. New rings are cheap! Take the opportunity to clean out the oilways and check the white metal bearings.

Cheers,

Ray.

Good advise Ray.

I have a little experience, (and success), in freeing up old stuck engines. It is a process. A little movement can be worked into more movement, in both directions. When the engine turns freely, then is the time to think about starting it. At least thats worked before.

I'm not familure with the crankshaft "blanking plug"....? I don't have a crank for the engine, just the starter.

Will.

[Guest 1930]

The first thing I would say is that I don't know how much experience you have so if it sounds like I'm trying to preach to the converted, so to speak, please take it with a pinch of salt. You say the engine is still stuck despite putting diesel and P - B blaster in? Why not try out that Evapo - Rust?

These engines have a blanking plug which fits over the end of the crankshaft and is removed with the square end on the starting handle. This has fooled many a man who may have thought that the engine was stuck! Unlikely, I know.

Secondly, if the piston rings have rusted to the cylinder walls, then any attempt to free them may well result in breakages which will scour the cylinder walls with any attempt to start the engine; making a rebore or even a resleve necessary. So as soon as the engine is freed, the pistons need to be checked. New rings are cheap! Take the opportunity to clean out the oilways and check the white metal bearings.

Cheers,

Ray.

Ray, If I am not mistaken I believe the blanking plug ( as its being reffered to is attached the outer lower exterior shield. ( part of the lowere rad. sheet-metal ) but again please correct me if I am wrong

[R.White]

Hi Jason,

from what I can gather, the plug has a thread which screws into the engine. The plug has a square recess into which the square end of the crank/handle fits. Once you have unscrewed the plug, you insert the other end of the crank (here we go again!!) and turn the engine over.

You can see how this has caused a dilema for the un-initiated. There is an oil leak from this opening if the plug is missing and they get lost over time. Fortunately, replacements are available.

Will, have you removed the 6 volt North East starter to see if it operates O.K.? If the engine is stuck you risk overloading the motor. Perhaps a fellow club member could find you a crank/handle?

An alternative approach would be to apply leverage to the flywheel. As the engine really ought to be stripped to prevent damage, I personally would remove the head, pan, big end caps and get the pistons out. If no damage has occured, you have lost nothing but a little time and you will have a clearer idea of what you have there. By the way, I recently purchased a rebuilt 6 volt North East generator from Tom Myers (early Dodge). They also sell correct 'dog bone' rad caps and temperature gauges. Also try Vern at Romar.

You will need to remove the pulleys from the water pump and check if the end of the shaft is straight or tapered to determine which type of yoke driver you will need. An alternative would be a small solar charger to keep the 6 volt battery topped up.

Just a few ideas I had, but you will hopefully forgive my rambling on!

Cheers,

Ray

Edited March 19, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Guest rockerarm]

Will, have you removed the 6 volt North East starter to see if it operates O.K.? If the engine is stuck you risk overloading the motor. Perhaps a fellow club member could find you a crank/handle?

An alternative approach would be to apply leverage to the flywheel.

Actually I have not connected a battery as yet. My attempts to rotate the engine have been with a large screw driver on the flywheel.

Thank you for the leads on the needed parts.

Will.

[Guest 1930]

quote..........Hi Jason,

from what I can gather, the plug has a thread which screws into the engine. The plug has a square recess into which the square end of the crank/handle fits. Once you have unscrewed the plug, you insert the other end of the crank (here we go again!!) and turn the engine over............I see, I did not realize this, thanks for the info, maybe we can get Brian to get the camera out again and show us this, can someone tell me what years this sort of set-up was used. Thanks Ray

BTW I did read several times Brian explanation of this plug thingy but as they say a picture tells a thousand words and maybe with this further explanation I am starting to get it.

[Texacola]

Will....maybe a stupid question but have you checked that the clutch is freed up and trans. is out of gear...i.e. not trying to turn the engine and load with a screw driver..just a thought. Ray is,I believe, right on with your chassis date.My engine is C 842-314 and chassis 770913 (about 9/11/26).Using either my diff of about 71k or Ray's 70k would put yours right within the serial # range of 740000-750000, Aug 14-21,1926.Bill

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

You may want to remove the valve cover pans to check if the valves are free.

[R.White]

Hi Vern.

The only one I had where the valves had stuck in their guides so bad that the engine wouldn't budge was seriously nackered!

Ray.

A broken valve; now that's a different story!

Edited March 20, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Texacola]

Jason...The Crank Hole Plug was 4cyl deal. Unlike the Model A engine (which you could go down the road with the crank in the hole) DB's require a plug with gasket to keep oil from leaking out (mine actaully weeps a little,needs new gasket). The DB crank uses both ends...1st the square end to remove the plug then you insert the other end to crank the engine.

If you go to Myers catalog site and look under engine you can view the plug.

[Guest 1930]

quote.........If you go to Myers catalog site and look under engine you can view the plug.........I will do that, thanks for the info.

I am sure there are many that you could do down the road with the crank in the hole, Victory and my DA crank is semi-permanently in the hole, attached to front tube.

[Guest rockerarm]

Will....maybe a stupid question but have you checked that the clutch is freed up and trans. is out of gear...i.e. not trying to turn the engine and load with a screw driver..just a thought.

The only stuped question is the one not asked.....! Good point though. The trans seems to shift smoothly and goes into netural. And I removed the clutch imspection cover and can see the clutch disengaging when I depress the pedal.

The crank plug is missing on my engine. I went to the Myers site and they seem to have what is needed for this engine. If I decide to go forward I Know where to go for some parts now.

[Machinist_Bill]

Whoever built that hoist was a genius! American ingenuity at it's best. I agree with everyone else on this and keep it the way it is.

[Guest rockerarm]

Whoever built that hoist was a genius! American ingenuity at it's best. I agree with everyone else on this and keep it the way it is.

From the stories i've heard about the fellow who built this winch... genius is a good discription...! He was a blacksmith... machinist..... designer and all around handy guy. He was in his 90's when he passed in 1969. I wish I could have known him.

As far as what to do with this piece of history..... My first thought was to restore and refinish everything to shiny show quality.... paint, polish & function. But... I love the original patima and it has a certain charm just as it is. Perhaps just get it to run and function...

Then..... what do I do with it....? LOL. I have some collector vehicles that I restore and drive, primarily to cruise in's, local shows and road trips but rarely get to events that would feature and display equipment like this. It's not something that one just picks up and carries to a show.

I'm thinking that it needs to be in the hands of someone who can appreciate it for what it is and share it with others..... Or in a meseum setting.

I have no idea how to value something like this and would welcome any input about that.

Will.

[R.White]

Hi Will

I have been thinking that as a lot of the guys in this site are pretty handy - most like mechanics and engineering and even if those who don't contribute much to the discussion get a lot out of what's put on here. If you were to post a video of the winch when you get it going I should think it would be a hit.

As to value, these engines are trabsmitions are quite hard to find in good working order and probably sell for £1000. dollars or more. As yours has repaired frost damage, it may only attract a buyer who would break it for spares, so it would be better (in my view) to keep it all together as a unique piece of " American inginuity at it's best" as Bill said.

I suppose you could trailer it to country shows (if you have them) where it would fit in well with other stationary engines etc. I know an old boy who has over 50 stationary engines (steam, Diesel etc, who would give a good price for it but the cost of shipping as I said before would kill it.

Ray.

[Guest 1930]

Hi Will

I have been thinking that as a lot of the guys in this site are pretty handy - most like mechanics and engineering and even if those who don't contribute much to the discussion get a lot out of what's put on here. If you were to post a video of the winch when you get it going I should think it would be a hit.

As to value, these engines are trabsmitions are quite hard to find in good working order and probably sell for £1000. dollars or more. As yours has repaired frost damage, it may only attract a buyer who would break it for spares, so it would be better (in my view) to keep it all together as a unique piece of " American inginuity at it's best" as Bill said.

I suppose you could trailer it to country shows (if you have them) where it would fit in well with other stationary engines etc. I know an old boy who has over 50 stationary engines (steam, Diesel etc, who would give a good price for it but the cost of shipping as I said before would kill it.

Ray.

Couldnt have said it better, could you imagine that thing at a top of a hill pullin up a log, that would be something to see. I am sure that any historical preservation society that caters to old farm/utilitarian machinery would be glad to get it even possibly in non-running condition, the down side is that most of these places are operating on a shoe-string so it would have to be maybe a donation.

[R.White]

Jason,

Some of the steam fairs over here (do you have them) have pto demonstrations like log sawing, heavy load winching etc. It would be great to see this competing with the traction engines. The chances are that it could aquit itself without disgrace.

If an historical preservation society were interested in displaying the winch, Will could still retain ownership but help a good cause at the same time! Just a thought.

Ray

[Guest 1930]

Jason,

Some of the steam fairs over here (do you have them) have pto demonstrations like log sawing, heavy load winching etc. It would be great to see this competing with the traction engines. The chances are that it could aquit itself without disgrace.

If an historical preservation society were interested in displaying the winch, Will could still retain ownership but help a good cause at the same time! Just a thought.

Ray

My thoughts exactly and I mentioned this very same thing to Will per e-mail

[Machinist_Bill]

Darn it. Now someone has to purchase an old Dodge 1 ton truck and use this winch for a tow truck. It looks like it would pull a house......

[Guest rockerarm]

Im not in a income bracket where I need tax deductions...... So a donation is not really an option..... I need to flip something every now and then to perpetutiate my interests. That and space restraints. I don't think anyone would be foolish enought to aquire this just to use as parts for an old Dodge. It truly does belong in a meseum.

My options seem to be to keep it and get running, mount it in a trailer and tote it around to shows now and then.

Sell it..... Or..... trade it. I like old gas station stuff and soda fountain stuff, tools, and 50's-60's cars, (mainly Mopars).

I don't think restoring the cosmetic's would be a good way to go, theres to much character and history in the patima that might be lost if restored. But that is what I like to do and it would make me crazy not making it appear fresh. I'll mess with it for awile longer and maybe get it to run....I've learned a lot from the comments from y'all here since posting the pictures... And my interest is a bit renewed.

I'm in the middle of a restoration on my 69 Chrysler 300 convertible right now, perhaps after that I can take a look at this piece.

Edited March 22, 2012 by rockerarm (see edit history)

[Mudgy]

.....

Edited August 13, 2012 by Mudgy (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Very similar to early Kissel engines with that thru the block intake and the centrifugal air "filter".

[fiddlerbill]

What did you decide to do with the engine? Are you going to part out or restore? I could use some of the parts.

Thanks