Starter motor woes

[R.White]

Having fitted the newly rebuilt starter to my '26 DB touring, I was at first pleased to be able to start the car but my demeanour changed when a friend pointed to smoke coming from the starter whilst cranking!! There are no markings on the unit but it is believed to be either a North East or Delco. The auto electrician who rebuilt it thought it was 12 volts despite my protestations that it should have been 6 volts (like the rest of the electrics). I have checked the earth/ground connections - they are O.K. but perhaps another one from the starter to the frame would be a good idea.

Having waited 4 months and paid a high rebuild cost, I am reluctant to go back to this auto electrician who says he will look at it again but didn't seem very optomistic; then again, I am reluctant to pull it apart myself, but what choice do I have?

If the starter is a 12 volt, presumably it is having to cope with double the amperage from the 6 volt battery; getting overloaded. I may have to fit new 6 volt field coils/windings. I wonder if there are crossover straps; one might be shorting on a centre bearing screw head or something?

If the starter is not shorting out; it still works, although slowly, perhaps I could get round the problem a different way.

Another thought I had, would be to fit a separate 12 volt battery just for the starter - but I would have to supply the ameter from the existing 6 volt supply and perhaps use a solar charger to top up the 12 volt battery. Not a very elegant solution but I'm frustrated with the car just sitting in storage for months on end.

What do you guys make of it all?

Ray.

[Guest 1930]

quote...........I was at first pleased to be able to start the car but my demeanour changed when a friend pointed to smoke coming from the starter whilst cranking!!............Sorry, I feel your pain and we have all been there but I couldnt help but to chuckle on your phrasing.

[JACK M]

Might just be some lube or something used in assembley. The smoking might go away.

Just a thought.

However if you paid top dollar I would not be hesitant to lodge my complaints.

[R.White]

I might have guessed YOU would jump on that (if you excuse the expression), Jason. Ha ha.

[Guest 1930]

Yes, I like your style

[R.White]

Hi Jack, thanks for the optimism but I don't know that I can afford to take the risk of burning out the motor. I have complained to the auto electrician who insists it was not smoking when he tested it and that it sounded like the starter was being overloaded. (The guy has been in business since 1967 and has always been very good in restoring stuff in the past; a voltage regulator/cut - out he did for me was a brilliant job. He has a fully equipped workshop but I don't think he will be in business much longer.)

I could go to someone else, but I feel inclined to have a go myself and with the help of Club members, I could probably do an acceptable job.

Ray

[gundog99]

You should go back to the auto electrician and at the very least find out if he rewound for 6V or 12 v ,if it has been wound for 12 v it will burn out and if you asked for 6volts ,he is liable either to refund you or do the job again properly

[R.White]

;)In an ideal world, Gundog, I would have demanded my money back but I have no chance of seeing that £500 again. What the guy has done is install a 6 volt armature into the starter but not checked whether the field windings were compatible or not. When he had finished the job, he told me that the starter behaved more like a 12 volt as it torqued up to 13 ftlb (it should have been 14). When I pointed out that 6 volt field windings are of a heavier gauge wire than 12 volt and that the output is governed more by them than the armature, he dismissed it. As far as having him do the job properly; it took over four months first time and I no longer have any confidence in him or his business which I think is about to close. The firm is Rockhall Auto Electrics in Hayfield, Derbyshire who you may have noticed no longer advertise in the Automobile magazine and have stopped taking new orders.

I intend to put some 6 volt coils in myself, but I really shouldn't have to. Just sods law, I guess.:mad:

Thanks for your interest all the same.

Ray.

Edited March 15, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[platt-deutsch]

Is this a Starter only or a Starter/Generator ? If its a 26 and its 6 volt it would have separate Starter and a separate generator as far as I know. If its 12 volt system I think it would have been a starter Gen. combination unit chain driven and mouted on the Left side of the engine..

If you are applying 6 volts to the starter and its wound for 12 volts it would have very little torque and would draw about 1/2 the amperage.. What does it draw for amps when starting.. Do you have a high amp DC ampmeter?

[Guest 1930]

Not that it helps but I do know and found interesting that it was at some point in 26 ( didnt bother to look up the serial number ) that Dodge dropped the 12 volt in favor of the 6 volt two unit model because it was decided that there was a spark knock from 12 volt ignition at higher engine speeds resulting in a dis-agreeable engine vibration at speeds over 40 mph.

Apparently this became more evident due to better road conditions allowing for higher speeds I.E 40 MPH plus :eek:

[R.White]

The starter is not a starter/generator. As a 1926 116 6 volt 2 unit model, it should have a six volt starter and battery. What I suspect is that before I got the car (as a non runner), someone might have fitted a 12 volt starter by mistake and that could be the reason why it was burnt out. The risk is that although a 6 volt armature has been installed by the rebuilder (who also had to replace the centre bearing plate) while the 12 volt field windings remain in situ. the starter will burn out again if I continue to use it as it is.

As to amperage; half the voltage = twice the amperage I believe; hence the need for heavier gauge wire in the field windings?

I am grateful for the input, guys, keep it going!

Ray.

Edited March 15, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[gundog99]

Do you have a 1926 Dodge manual ?

[R.White]

Yes thanks, gundog. I have a mechanics instruction manual (Faxion) and an original 'Book of information' for 1926.

Another thought I had was to convert the car to 12 volts but having just bought a newly rebuilt 6 volt generator, cut - out, coil and battery etc. for no small amount, I wince at what this is all costing!

I am familiar with getting 12 volts out of a Austin Seven dynamo but I don't know what resistors there may be in the North East unit or indeed whether it could handle 12 volrs anyway?

Probabably better keeping it original in the long run.

Edited March 15, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[gundog99]

The paragraph "Shunt field Fuse"on page 95 might be worth a look.

[R.White]

I haven't checked the book but I would have thought that the shunt field fuse (6 amp) is for the generator. There is not normally a fuse in the starter circuit, but I will check it out, thanks.

[gundog99]

The AACA library might be able to provide you with a photocopy of The North East Electric Company Bulletin No:30 If you PM me your email address I will scan some starter infO from Dyke's Encyclopedias (1931 issue)

[Guest 1930]

The starter is not a starter/generator. As a 1926 116 6 volt 2 unit model, it should have a six volt starter and battery. What I suspect is that before I got the car (as a non runner), someone might have fitted a 12 volt starter by mistake and that could be the reason why it was burnt out. The risk is that although a 6 volt armature has been installed by the rebuilder (who also had to replace the centre bearing plate) while the 12 volt field windings remain in situ. the starter will burn out again if I continue to use it as it is.

As to amperage; half the voltage = twice the amperage I believe; hence the need for heavier gauge wire in the field windings?

I am grateful for the input, guys, keep it going!

Ray.

Quote...........As a 1926 116 6 volt 2 unit model,.........sorry for my confusion, should have figured this out myself. You did say your electrical was 6 volt in another post

[Guest 1930]

The AACA library might be able to provide you with a photocopy of The North East Electric Company Bulletin No:30 If you PM me your email address I will scan some starter infO from Dyke's Encyclopedias (1931 issue)

I had not thought of this but I have been overlooking ALOT of electrical pages within that motor age catalog I have been posting because its all greek to me, I suppose you would need something specific to N.E. is that correct?

If you are looking for just general info I would be more than happy to look and see what I can find. Let me know what might help

[R.White]

Hi Jason,

one of the frustrating things about my starter motor is that there are no markings on it to identify either the make or the voltage. This has caused a LOT of confusion and the main reason I thought I would hand it over to an EXPERT. Without a test bench, growler, torque tester etc. let alone the ability to rewind coils, the D.I .Y chap is not best placed to handle an unknown quantity. Pitty then that despite having a fully equipped workshop and many years of experience, the EXPERT still managed to stuff it up !!

Ironically, I had a similar stroke of bad luck with a top dollar carburettor specialist; but that is another whole story!!

And still I'm not bitter!!

Ray.

[Guest 1930]

Maybe a stupid question and may have already been answered but I dont remember the answer so I will just ask again.........Have you posted a pict. of the starter, maybe a couple from different angles.

There would almost surely be identifying traits about it that would seperate it from a N.E or Delco especially since it early and quite a few years away still from the merge.

I prob. would not be able to identify but I bet someone here would be able to, after you know the make than it would be easier to get the appropriate info.

Not bitter....better man than me :mad:

[R.White]

Not a stupid question at all, Jason. The answer is no, or at least not yet. As soon as I got the starter back, I fitted it to the car but obviously it will need to come off again and I will post some shots of it as soon as I can. I will also need to take measurements; especially of the field windings - so that I know precisely what to order from the auto electrical suppliers.

By the way, I bet you know more about 'Greek' electrics than you think. The problem for some of us is that the whole subject is made more difficult than it needs to be. As usual, it is the questions that are hard to understand rather than the answers!

Edited March 15, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

My M.O.S was 63 Gulf fuel and electrical mechanic, you would think I would have picked up something. Sadly not much. I bet I can help you with this. There is tons of usefull info to be found in these old books but I may not be able to get specific enough, one thing is for sure though, you and I will both learn something so its all good

Lets see what starter you have and I will start thumbing thru

[startergenrebuilder]

Ray,

More than likely, you are dealing with a North East starter. I say that because of the comment you made regarding replacing the center plate/bearing. That's more of a common problem with the North East units. Although I agree, with pictures it would be fairly simple to identify what you have. Hopefully it's a Delco, the coils would be easier to come up with. Feel free to contact me, I may be able to help you with the coils. Email me with some pics if you could.

[Texacola]

Ray...remembering our past correspondence and the fact that your '26 (what month was yours built?) has the same generator as my 9/26 (1927) I would assume you would have the same 6v starter as mine.Its a NE model SBH Type 6304.If you post some pics I will compare. Bill

[Machinist_Bill]

The starter is not a starter/generator. As a 1926 116 6 volt 2 unit model, it should have a six volt starter and battery. What I suspect is that before I got the car (as a non runner), someone might have fitted a 12 volt starter by mistake and that could be the reason why it was burnt out. The risk is that although a 6 volt armature has been installed by the rebuilder (who also had to replace the centre bearing plate) while the 12 volt field windings remain in situ. the starter will burn out again if I continue to use it as it is.

As to amperage; half the voltage = twice the amperage I believe; hence the need for heavier gauge wire in the field windings?

I am grateful for the input, guys, keep it going!

Ray.

Here I go stickin' my 2 cents worth.... I bought a '49 Chevy once with a 6 volt system and always had a hard time with starters. I finally had to use thick welding lead cables to solve the problem. I was trying to use 12 volt standard battery cables which wasn't working! It seems like those 6 volt buggers take alot of amps..... Bear with me Rick I'm a Machinist NOT a Electrician.

Bill

[R.White]

Thankyou guys. I will get some pictures as soon as I can get over to the car which is in storage about ten miles away. Unfortunately, I also have to earn a living which is always a nuisance!

Jason (AER) I agree; the centre plate had broken up just like a North East but the rebuilder called it a Delco,however, being in the UK he is probably unfamiliar with the former. He also should have told me about the broken plate before making one up because, as we know, they are available off the shelf in the U.S.! I have not forgotten you can help with the field coils but before tearing the starter apart, I think I will hook up a separate 12 volt battery (but keep 6 volts to the ameter) to see if the reduced amps stops the smoking; if it doesn't then there must be a short - you will know that the crossover straps need to be bent away from the bearing plate and this is sometimes overlooked.

I will try to email you pictures and dimensions so you have a better idea what I will need.

Bill, yes you are right about the need for heavy cables with 6 volts. A lot of people fail to realise how much amperage is involved here! A seperate ground from the engine or starter bolt to the frame with a good metal to metal contact is a neat plan and I always solder the cable clamps, rather than just leave pinched on. The terminals also want petrolium jelly (vasaline) rather than grease. You can put a 12 volt battery on a 6 volt starter but not vice versa.

Texacola, Hi. There are no markings on the unit I have but the numbers you quote will be very useful. We will be able to compare my starter with yours when I get those photos posted. Thanks.

Ray.

Edited March 16, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Quote..........I also have to earn a living which is always a nuisance! ...........That is a pain in the butt but if you lived here in the U.S you wouldnt have to worry about that, you could just go on welfare, its so simple and hey since everyone does it you dont have to worry about the embarrasment.

[R.White]

That was facetious of me. Sorry for any offence to anyone.

What we have here is a Government that thinks it is a good idea to reduce the top rate of tax for the super rich while self employed like me have to work twice as hard to get half as much!

Ray.

Edited March 16, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Phil 32DL6]

That was facetious of me. Sorry for any offence to anyone.

What we have here is a Government that thinks it is a good idea to reduce the top rate of tax for the super rich while self employed like me have to work twice as hard to get half as much!

Ray.

You get half as much as the super rich??

I hear ya. I tell people that, working for myself, I get to work half time. I just have to decide which 12 hours of the day that's gonna be.

[Guest 1930]

That was facetious of me. Sorry for any offence to anyone.

What we have here is a Government that thinks it is a good idea to reduce the top rate of tax for the super rich while self employed like me have to work twice as hard to get half as much!

Ray.

No different here, itll never change either

[R.White]

You only work a 12 hour day? What do you do?

Edited March 16, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Texacola]

Ray, check out the post by Rockerarm(barn find).Great pics of a "C" motor,1926. Thats my exact engine (and I assume yours).The pic of the starter is right on.

[1936 D2]

Here it is: http://forums.aaca.org/f143/barn-find-324438.html

[R.White]

That is interesting. Although the starter looks the same at first glance, I think there may be slight differences beetween them. When I have got the unit off the car (which is in storage 10 miles away) I should be able to confirm my suspicions. For example, the end plate nearest the bendix, looks to be slightly proud of the case, where I think it is flush. That would indicate that the one on my car is a Delco and not a North East. If that proves to be true then finding the exact right 6 volt coils for it should be a whole lot easier.

Many thanks, I will try to get some photos posted.

[R.White]

I have now taken the starter off the car. It had stopped working altogether but strangely, the commutator was not hot but the armature would not turn. On dismantling the unit, a bolt and washer fell out. The armature was now free. On closer inspection, the bolt, which is a spring retainer, had a stripped thread. I easily replaced the bolt (which needed turning down at the end to form a spigot) and held in place with a tab washer. You probably have had this sort of thing happen before, as I have, but this was supposed to have been a rebuilt unit! To add insult to injury, the centre bearing plate was only held on with one set screw - and that was cross threaded; so that the head broke off whilst removing it and so I had to drill it out and replace it. Another screw was found for the other side. So much for the top dollar rebuild!

The starter bendix is dated 1926 - correct for the car and although I can find no makers name, I am pretty certain it is a Noth East. a) it looks identical to the photos of known North East starters and it broke it's centre bearing plate which is a typical Noth East trait. I fitted a fibre washer to the end of the shaft to help save the end plate from breaking and checked for end play. It must be a North East....

As Jason says "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a ....pigeon!" Ha Ha.

I have taken a shot at it! The offending bolt is the one on the left.

Anyway, I have tested the starter and feel confident that the problem has been sorted so I should be able to get the car to the testing station fairly shortly.

If the car passes it's test, I intend to rest the modern and give the Dodge Brothers some use.

Thankyou guys.

Ray.

Edited March 21, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[Paul Bohlig]

Glad you got to the bottom of the problem. The tab washers are a bit hard to find but in the US Synders Ford Parts and Little Dearborn among other Ford Model T and A suppliers have them. Good idea to use fiber washer. I recall I put one in front of the center plate to hopefully absorb some of the kick back if the engine does not start right off. Too bad about your rebuilder. If he has others help with the work he might appreciate knowing his folks are missing some very basic steps. Agree, if he is the main and only guy maybe time to chalk it up to experience and move on.

Best regards;

Paul

[R.White]

Good to hear fron you Paul. Fortunately, I can get tab washers here in the U.K. but you know what it's like - you can never find the right size when you want one and the store is shut!

I spoke to the rebuilder again today. Truth is I am afraid to say he is very elderly and pretty senile; added to which, his business partner and old friend was killed in a hit and run which has sent the old boy into a spin. It's such a shame; I know the guy, and he has done fantastic work for me in the past and we had become pals in a way. Poor chap can't let go of his business which he has been running since 1967. If I gave him a hard time he would probably reimburse me the money, but I have decided to write it off. I can put it through my business and loose it. I will know another time.

Ray.

[Texacola]

Ray...I believe you indeed have the correct NE starter.If I'm not mistaken the # on your Drive -end Bearing Housing is 17050..if so my book confirms thats the correct part #.Bill

[R.White]

Thanks Bill, that confirms it's a North East. I just knew you guys would have the answer!

[Guest 1930]

Quote..........I have now taken the starter off the car. It had stopped working altogether but strangely, the commutator was not hot but the armature would not turn. On dismantling the unit, a bolt and washer fell out. The armature was now free. On closer inspection, the bolt, which is a spring retainer, had a stripped thread. I easily replaced the bolt (which needed turning down at the end to form a spigot) and held in place with a tab washer. You probably have had this sort of thing happen before, as I have, but this was supposed to have been a rebuilt unit! To add insult to injury, the centre bearing plate was only held on with one set screw - and that was cross threaded; so that the head broke off whilst removing it and so I had to drill it out and replace it. Another screw was found for the other side. So much for the top dollar rebuild!.............Amazing

Quote............Truth is I am afraid to say he is very elderly and pretty senile; added to which, his business partner and old friend was killed in a hit and run which has sent the old boy into a spin. It's such a shame; I know the guy, and he has done fantastic work for me in the past and we had become pals in a way. Poor chap can't let go of his business which he has been running since 1967. If I gave him a hard time he would probably reimburse me the money, but I have decided to write it off. I can put it through my business and loose it.............I prob. would have done the same thing, whats the sense, whats done is done!

Glad to hear that at least something fell apart before too much damage was done

Edited March 22, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)