A quick Question about restoration work

[Guest bofusmosby]

Let me ask you guys something. I am restoring a part on my car, and I have found that it wasn't perfect when it was new, due to manufacturing methods. What would you do? Would you restore it to the way it originally was from the factory, or would you put the extra time into it to make it better that it originally was?

[flintauto]

Jim I think you are leaving too much information out. One would have to know you, what you plan on doing with the car (is it going to be in the family for years)? Is it a fairly common auto? Whats involved in doing it right and how big a can of worms are opened? Is it an issue that has to be addressed now or can it wait and be addressed without having everything being done now wasted?

Is it going to nag you later, because it sounds like now is the best time? You'll forget about the $$$ sooner than the imperfection. Bob

[A. Ballard 35R]

Is it a crucial mechanical part or more of a non-functional trim type part?

[jpage]

Jim , In my opinion to "restore" a car means to bring it back to original condition.That would mean leaving the original tooling marks,welds and grinding imperfections. I think that it adds to the overall character of the vehicle. It also shows that even "new " cars were never perfect.On my '36 Dodge the leaded roof seams were very bad and uneven,I will clean those up.There were also heavy grind marks in the door jambs and big "bubble gum"type welds on the cowling that I will leave as they were. Most cars are overrestored and unfortunately I think that has become the standard today. Many trucks show varnished bed wood and better than new paint work and I've even seen some Model A's with perfectly smooth engines! Little things like that really take away from the "originallity"for me,even if the restoration is authentic. Some people and judges feel that if it's not over the top perfect it's no good. I had a friend in AACA that lost points on his '57 Chevy for exposed welds that were factory. Come on--how far should anyone go on a restoration! Even perfectly smooth and high gloss frames and running gear are way above what most cars would have been off of the line. I think the best thing would be to keep it as original as possible,maybe repairing only the most blatant problems so others can see what they really looked like back then.

[Guest Skyking]

I think most of us restore cars better than the way they came from the factory. For me it's just second nature to do it that way. Our standards have changed............For instance, I wouldn't leave ripples in the panels, even though the factory did.

[Bhigdog]

Most of the 50's cars were sub standard in fit and finish. They were not DESIGNED to be that way but that's the way they were assembled. The standard of quality used in assembly was often "good enough". Even the Buick (an upscale car) shop manual states the panel margins won't be even and to adjust them as best as can be done. My aim is to restore my cars to look as they were DESIGNED to look, not as they ended up looking. I think most restorers do the same..........Bob

[Guest bofusmosby]

Thank you guys for your feed-back. Let me explain a bit. Right now, I am concerning myself with the little things. I am referring to the original horn assembly. My car (37 Pontiac) has the dual horns, and they are rusted pretty bad. I decided to remove one at a time and "re-do" it cosmetically. I had to remove all the rust and bring it down to the clean metal. I noticed that on the long horn trumpet (what ever it is called) there are small dents around the bell of the horn, and these were put there when it was originally put together at the factory, no doubt about it. Also, the seam where it was put together is also not completely straight, which again, was done at the factory. Since I have it down to bare metal, I could easily use a small amount of body filler on these places to make it look better, but I am unsure what I should do. It's really no big deal, and is not a part that is even seen unless the hood is open. I just figured I'd ask the experts before I made my decision.

Opinions appreciated.

[Bhigdog]

Was it designed to have dents and sloppy seams or did some lazy worker who didn't give a crap put them there? Your choice. BTW It's the little things that make or break a restoration..............Bob

Edited March 12, 2012 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[jpage]

Most of the defects you see are from manufacturing,both machine marks and finishing marks. Remember that cars and truck were designed to be built quickly and as inexpensively as possible,NOT to make them perfect! It even shows today! When Bihgdog says it's the little things that make a restoration ,he's right. But not the little mfg.defects so much. What ruins it for me is when some one puts time and money in a "restoration" and it still looks like crap. When someone will go to the trouble of painting everything and letting the engine and interior(unless it's a near perfect original) look like they just pulled it from the woods. Or when they reuse old glass, or don't replace bad chrome or use mismated or incorrect parts and materials,especially when it wouldn't have cost any more to do it right! That stuff is fine if that's what you want but to me that is not restoration. To me ,those ARE the little things. Look at some of the "junk"on ebay touted as "Restored" for big money! Theres a real difference between a "fixed up car" (patch and paint) and a restored car. Today it seems,at least locally here,at car shows you see less and less fully or nicely restored cars and that disappoints me as more people just seem to throw something together,put it on the road and call it restored. Don't get me wrong,I'm not putting anyone down here,I know there are different tastes and budgets are a big deal today,all I'm saying is if you are going to really restore a car,take the time ,spend the money and DO IT RIGHT! For the "lesser value"cars that is the only way to get money out of them. I would rather pay more for a nice correct car than one that I will have to invest 10 grand in fixing it up after it was "restored". Hey, I'm in the group that doesn't have a lot of extra cash to throw at toys,and that's why it takes me 10 yrs or more to put a car together, but I'd rather it be correct,especially if I'd ever want to sell it to someone who knows that kind of vehicle and I like the greater challenge of making it like it was! Just my take on the subject!

[Restorer32]

Sometimes "they were never that nice from the factory" is used to justify sloppy restoration work. The finish levels varied of course with generally more expensive cars having better fit and finish than more common cars. We were involved with a totally original 1976 RR Corniche Conv with only 4800 miles and I can tell you it would be difficult for even a professional restorer to duplicate the quality of its workmanshio. My feeling is you restore them as the designers and engineers intended them to be built. To reproduce a run in the paint just because a hungover worker on the assembly line was having a bad day when he painted your particular car is just silly.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I think both JPage and Restorer 32 are right. There were few cars produced after 1935 in the U.S. that could be described as anything other than being a product of mass production, which means "Flaws." Few cars in this country have ever met 100% of designer or engineer hopes and expectations coming off the line. Dealers didn't/don't maintain a "Make Ready" department without good reason.

Restoration has two faces. One is restore to Dealer delivery level and the other is to restore to designer/engineering expectations. Unless one is into serious competition judging it is almost a waste of time and money to restore to the latter level in my opinion. If one's objective is to have a darn good looking/running car for cruise nights and general car shows there is no need to drive yourself into bankruptcy or nuts attempting to bring a car up to the original designer/engineering expectations. 99% of all domestically produced cars intended for public consumption were never perfect, maybe not even close to perfect.

[Restorer32]

We recently painted a '59 Cadillac air cleaner 3 times before we got exactly the level of gloss that the owner had determined was most correct thru researching original untouched air cleaners. We also spent a good bit of time determining exactly how the original fuel lines on the Tripower setup were run, I mean to the quarter of an inch...It's fun to do a car to that level of detail, especially if you're getting paid to do it, but it certainly isn't for everyone. Eventually you reach a point where you are within the margin of error of what would have come off the assembly line. Accuracy in restoration is not the same as over restoration.

[Guest bofusmosby]

Thank you guys! I decided to finish the horn the way it originally was, not the way is could have looked. Besides, as far as the seem goes, that is actually located at the underside of the horn, so unless someone were to use a mirror to check it, it'l never be seen. When I look at the horn I just finished next to the one that still needs to be done, it's like night and day.

I'll post some photos of the work I did this evening to show you how it looks. Again, I thank you for your time and opinions on this.

[DAVE A]

Again the question of doccumentation comes up. Can you doccument that it came from the factory that way?? When I was working on my Farm O Road, I was troubled by the roughness of the welds on the frame. When I questioned the then VP of Judging, Herb Oakes, he advised me to restore it as it came from the factory and if unable to produce doccumentation, in many cases, the judges would accept the word of the owner if no prior knowledge exists. When I was going for my Junior, I was, in fact, questioned about the quality of those welds. I reiterated my conversation with Herb, and and had pictures with me of several other Farm O Roads, showing that poor frame weld, and it was accepted. I guess the question is, how do you find doccumentation of poor workmanship??? In my case, I have since found a factory picture of a Farm O Road that, when it was enlarged, shows the exact poor workmanship on the frame.

[R W Burgess]

......When I was going for my Junior, I was, in fact, questioned about the quality of those welds............... In my case, I have since found a factory picture of a Farm O Road that, when it was enlarged, shows the exact poor workmanship on the frame.

I looked your Farm O Road over closely that day, Dave, and I myself noticed the original workmanship. But, I knew it was representative as original.

Afterall, it was also considered a farm vehicle, right?

It looked good to me, and was happy to see you get your award that night in Charlotte.

Wayne

[Guest bofusmosby]

Here are some photos showing the condition of the horn before any work was done. Also included are a few showing the horn with the paint and rust removed. I have also included some of the after photos. Please excuse the poor quality on these photos.

[Guest]

Well in my book restore means to bring it back to what it was original. You know some guys are taking great pains to bring it back that way. Things like leaving chalk marks on a firewall that the factory used for assembly or for some makes using different color spray paint on critical parts that let everyone know those bolts/nuts were torqued. Even coil springs had a strip of colored paint to tell which ones were high performance or for a wagon or convertible.

D.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Wow, that thing was bit nasty looking to say the least. Now it looks new right out of the box, so to speak. Great job!

[Matt Harwood]

That looks fantastic! I think you got it right. There's no penalty for over-restoration, but we all know it when we see it. The best cars always look appropriate.

Nice work.

[Guest 36chev]

Thank you guys for your feed-back. Let me explain a bit. Right now, I am concerning myself with the little things. I am referring to the original horn assembly. My car (37 Pontiac) has the dual horns, and they are rusted pretty bad. I decided to remove one at a time and "re-do" it cosmetically. I had to remove all the rust and bring it down to the clean metal. I noticed that on the long horn trumpet (what ever it is called) there are small dents around the bell of the horn, and these were put there when it was originally put together at the factory, no doubt about it. Also, the seam where it was put together is also not completely straight, which again, was done at the factory. Since I have it down to bare metal, I could easily use a small amount of body filler on these places to make it look better, but I am unsure what I should do. It's really no big deal, and is not a part that is even seen unless the hood is open. I just figured I'd ask the experts before I made my decision.

Opinions appreciated.

These horns look identical the factory accessory trumpet horns on my 36 Chevy. The Chevrolet horns even have the same "small dents" where the bells were attached! And to repeat what others have said, you certainly did an excellent job of cleaning and painting. They look great!

Edited March 13, 2012 by 36chev (see edit history)

[DAVE A]

I looked your Farm O Road over closely that day, Dave, and I myself noticed the original workmanship. But, I knew it was representative as original.

Wayne, I am extremely flattered that you took the time to look over my car. Thank you. It is things like this that keep me going back to Charlotte each year. I am, by the way returning again this year.

On the subject of the horns....all i can say is WOW. what an outstanding job!! BETTER than new!! Thank you for letting us see them!!

[Guest bofusmosby]

Thank you guys for your support and favorable comments. Like I said before, I decided to leave the manufacturing flaws intact. This was really a simple job to do, the only money it cost me was for the primer and paint. The rest was just time. I'm happy to hear 36chev mention that the small dents on mine are just like on his horns. No doubt...manufacturing marks and imperfections. I've got a long ways to go with my car, but I figured if I can do say one thing a week, then just think how much better it will look this time next year! Nothing on the engine or in the engine compartment had been touched by the previous owner, so all the age is shining through. Unfortunately, re-wiring the car is definitely on my to-do list. The problem is, with the budget I have to work with, I may have to do this one wire at a time. I don't know if that is possible though.

[Guest Skyking]

Now Jim, with the horns looking that good, you know you can't stop there...............

[avgwarhawk]

The horns look great and I applaud you for cleaning them up making them look like the horns that left the factory. Restoration to me is restoring to what it was and not what it could have been.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Now Jim, with the horns looking that good, you know you can't stop there...............

YEP!! Opened a can of worms.

Good work.

Ben

[Graham Man]

I have had more people tell me "Do not tear it all apart it will never go back together" so I use the same approach one piece at a time. It keeps my projects small, affordable and fun, best of all keeps the car on the road to enjoy. Horns look perfect, keep up the good work!

[avgwarhawk]

I have had more people tell me "Do not tear it all apart it will never go back together" so I use the same approach one piece at a time. It keeps my projects small, affordable and fun, best of all keeps the car on the road to enjoy. Horns look perfect, keep up the good work!

Rome really was not built in a day. Piece by piece is the best way.

[Restorer32]

Probably 40-50% of our work is completing restorations that were started and not finished for some reason or other. We will soon be starting to reassemble an early MG that was disassembled 39 years ago by the owner. One piece at a time is the best approach unless you have the time, dedication and resources to start and not stop until the car is done.