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MarkV

Soon to be Collectable Front Wheel Drive Vehicles

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I would not call that undergoing a restoration. A restoration involves complete bodywork and repainting the entire car, all new upholstery, rechroming (if applicable), plus rebuilding or repairing mechanical components. It is not even worth doing that to most 1970's and even some 1960's cars. I just don't see it happening to many post 1980 cars anytime soon.

Linc400 is correct in pointing out that there is a dividing line between something being of interest to a collector and if the collector is interested in financing a restoration. I would say virtually any clean low mileage "survivor" is worth something to someone just as a historical curiosity. But the number of cars that will have a whole industry spring up to provide parts like 1957 Chevys is going to be almost nil.

We will see occasional, usually partial, restorations of a few cars. But the idea of dragging, say, a 1988 Buick out of a junkyard and ordering a full reproduction interior and weatherstrip kit from a catalog is not likely to happen. Just as it does not for most 1970s cars. However, as Siegfried said, are they historic and worth saving? Sure, bring em on, Todd C

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To name just a couple, Buick Reatta and Riviera. Probably also the Cadillac Eldorado.

The Mazda Miata comes to mind.

Almost any "special interest" model will probably have some sort of collector following.

As for electronic parts, I rather expect that there will be repro or "universal" parts of some sort to work around the issue.

I am going through this thread now but Ken... Miata is a Rear Wheel Drive car :)

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I had thought about this question in the past since I own a 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera International with only 80k miles. Seeing that Oldsmobile is no longer and this is a relatively low milage car for the year (averages about 3k per year) and is only 2 years from being "antique", wonder if I should hold on to it?

Eric

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Guest my3buicks
Sounds like it has had a lot of repairs. But I would not call that undergoing a restoration. A restoration involves complete bodywork and repainting the entire car, all new upholstery, rechroming (if applicable), plus rebuilding or repairing mechanical components. As much as you like your Corsica, I don't think you would have bought it if it needed all of that when you could get 4 nice ones for what it would probably cost for all of that if not more. It is not even worth doing that to most 1970's and even some 1960's cars. So I really don't see too many people pulling a 1980's car out of a junkyard or barn and doing a full restoration on them anytime soon. That is not to say no one has ever done it. But it is a common occurrence with 1900-50's cars. I just don't see it happening to many post 1980 cars anytime soon.

Sounds like a restoration to me :confused: - so my 67 that had a full blown restoration but still sports it's original interior was really not restored? Darn, all these years I have been telling people it was restored.

A restoration includes some but not necessarily all the things you mentioned.

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Not front wheel drive but something to look into considering you never see these any longer are Pontiac Fiero.

I also like the bustle-back trunk Lincoln Continental and Cadillac Seville of the early 1980s as contenders.

Eric

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Sounds like a restoration to me :confused: - so my 67 that had a full blown restoration but still sports it's original interior was really not restored? Darn, all these years I have been telling people it was restored.

A restoration includes some but not necessarily all the things you mentioned.

Restoration is a term that is thrown around whenever any work is done on a car. Fixing some mechanical problems, even if expensive, and doing a little bodywork is not a restoration. It is simply repairs and repainting.

Go to a Concours event sometime, and see what a full restoration involves.

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I don't know that one should judge the cars in question future present or desirability on the basis of what one may see at brand club specific or local general car shows. Brand club activities are a bit of what the AACA is about but not restrictive on age of vehicles; they are more about brand appreciation than anything else. Local charity shows are usually open to just about anything with wheels and the organizations holding them are usually just thankful to see a variety cars, old and newer, and enough cars showing up that they have a show.

In our local area charity fund raiser car shows are more supported by the street rodder clubs, and even low ridder clubs than any of the brand clubs and a few of us show up with restored vehicles from times past. In this case it's all about geography and there being no brand specific clubs within 75 to 100 miles.

Chicago has a huge amount of car shows. From marque specific and club events to cruise nights, concours, charity shows, local burger joint shows, etc. If the cars are not showing up at any of these events, then I don't think they are being collected in any significant number.

Cars like 1957 Chevys, 1950's and even 1963 Corvettes, 1959 Cadillacs, 1955-57 Thunderbirds, and 1965 Mustangs were already being collected and shown in car shows in the mid-1970's when these cars were less than 20 years old.

Yet here we are in 2012, over 35 years later, and these are still some of the most desireable and collected cars. 1977 Chevy Impalas have not become anywhere near as collectible as 1957 Chevys ever were despite being almost double the age 1957's were when they first started to be collected.

In fact most 1970's cars still do not get much respect except for muscle cars. despite being about 40 years old. So no, I do not see average 1980's or 1990's cars becoming the new hot collectible anytime soon. I think it will take even longer for them to be appreciated except for the already mentioned muscle and unique vehicles.

You could buy a 1957 Chevy fuel injected convertible for a whole lot less in the 1970's than now. So people that want one now, but can't afford it, might buy a 1957 low end 4 door post, and get basically the same car.

If 1987 Mustang GT's or Camaros escalate in price for some reason in 20 years, that is not going to get people into 1987 4 door Celebritys and Cavaliers and Tempos and Tauruses. They are not in any way similar to a Mustang or Camaro. They will most likely look for some other more affordable muscle or unique car.

Edited by LINC400 (see edit history)

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If 1987 Mustang GT's or Camaros escalate in price for some reason in 20 years, that is not going to get people into 1987 4 door Celebritys and Cavaliers and Tempos and Tauruses. They are not in any way similar to a Mustang or Camaro. They will most likely look for some other more affordable muscle or unique car.

The Cavalier Z24 series of cars might attract some folks. Apparently ran for several years.

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When I read through the list of things done to the Corsica, it struck me more as a "make it right" and "maintenance" situation more than anything else. Obviously, the vehicle's other cosmetics were in reasonably good shape? If the paint was in decent condition, I think I'd much rather buff, glaze, and "slick wax" it than do a full-blown paint job just to say that I did.

Berettas were the 2-dr couple and the Corsica was the 4-dr sedan of the same platform. Berettas were pretty neat for back then. I considered specing one out with a V-6 and F41 suspension to see what it'd come up to. A decent price, all things considered. But, back then, the 2.8L V-6 had decent power, but nothing to write home about (especially in current times!!). When I set the tire pressure (on one I rented for a weekend trip) to 33 frt/29 rr, handling improved very nicely.

I don't consider "making it nice", as was done for the Corsica, to be out of whack, BUT just what any of us might have done . . . then OR now . . . if we'd been in the same situation. The mechanical stuff? Just normal maintenance, all things considered. Changing steering rack assemblies now is somewhat similar to doing valve jobs in prior decades . . . an "age/mileage-related maintenance" issue.

Enjoy that Corsica!

NTX5467

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Guest my3buicks
Chicago has a huge amount of car shows. From marque specific and club events to cruise nights, concours, charity shows, local burger joint shows, etc. If the cars are not showing up at any of these events, then I don't think they are being collected in any significant number.

Cars like 1957 Chevys, 1950's and even 1963 Corvettes, 1959 Cadillacs, 1955-57 Thunderbirds, and 1965 Mustangs were already being collected and shown in car shows in the mid-1970's when these cars were less than 20 years old.

Yet here we are in 2012, over 35 years later, and these are still some of the most desireable and collected cars. 1977 Chevy Impalas have not become anywhere near as collectible as 1957 Chevys ever were despite being almost double the age 1957's were when they first started to be collected.

In fact most 1970's cars still do not get much respect except for muscle cars. despite being about 40 years old. So no, I do not see average 1980's or 1990's cars becoming the new hot collectible anytime soon. I think it will take even longer for them to be appreciated except for the already mentioned muscle and unique vehicles.

You could buy a 1957 Chevy fuel injected convertible for a whole lot less in the 1970's than now. So people that want one now, but can't afford it, might buy a 1957 low end 4 door post, and get basically the same car.

If 1987 Mustang GT's or Camaros escalate in price for some reason in 20 years, that is not going to get people into 1987 4 door Celebritys and Cavaliers and Tempos and Tauruses. They are not in any way similar to a Mustang or Camaro. They will most likely look for some other more affordable muscle or unique car.

At Buick Nationals & Regional we see a significant number of front wheel drive cars on the show fields -Very heavy on the Reatta & Riviera's but certainly other models are also starting to be seen.

Edited by my3buicks (see edit history)

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Chicago has a huge amount of car shows. From marque specific and club events to cruise nights, concours, charity shows, local burger joint shows, etc. If the cars are not showing up at any of these events, then I don't think they are being collected in any significant number.

Bet you put a lot of miles on that Mark making all the Friday and Saturday cruise nights along with all the weekend car shows that may be taking place considering the amount of real estate that metropolitan Chicago covers.;)

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At Buick Nationals & Regional we see a significant number of front wheel drive cars on the show fields -Very heavy on the Reatta & Riviera's but certainly other models are also starting to be seen.

___________________________________________________________

I agree with you, and I have a question for you. Hot rods aside, how many 20's and 30's stock Buicks do you see at these meets?

These days at your average car show Hot rods aside again, how many stock cars from the 20's & 30's do you see? I can tell you not many. The local shows that are around my area have a cut off of 1979 these days with some people wanting to open that up to 25 or older. I think once it's accepted you will see these cars, but I worry more about not seeing stock cars of the 20's & 30's.

It seems to happen not only with cars , but with music too. Our oldies station does not play music of the 50's anymore, and the contemporary station which used to play songs from my parents generation (30's & 40"s) now plays 50's, 60's & 70's. The culture is just slipping away, and younger people will never be able to experience music from the great American song book.

D.

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Bet you put a lot of miles on that Mark making all the Friday and Saturday cruise nights along with all the weekend car shows that may be taking place considering the amount of real estate that metropolitan Chicago covers.;)

It gets a couple thousand miles put on it a year, which might not sound like much. But it is only used for car related events from April to early November. Never driven to work or to the store to run errands. I usually am at a car show one if not both weekend days plus 3-4 multi-day out of state trips, and the occassional cruise night, which happen every night of the week here, not just Fridays. It would get more miles put on it but I usually go with my friend and half the time we go in one of his cars.

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At Buick Nationals & Regional we see a significant number of front wheel drive cars on the show fields -Very heavy on the Reatta & Riviera's but certainly other models are also starting to be seen.

___________________________________________________________

I agree with you, and I have a question for you. Hot rods aside, how many 20's and 30's stock Buicks do you see at these meets?

These days at your average car show Hot rods aside again, how many stock cars from the 20's & 30's do you see? I can tell you not many. The local shows that are around my area have a cut off of 1979 these days with some people wanting to open that up to 25 or older. I think once it's accepted you will see these cars, but I worry more about not seeing stock cars of the 20's & 30's.

It seems to happen not only with cars , but with music too. Our oldies station does not play music of the 50's anymore, and the contemporary station which used to play songs from my parents generation (30's & 40"s) now plays 50's, 60's & 70's. The culture is just slipping away, and younger people will never be able to experience music from the great American song book.

D.

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I did some nosing around searching 80s cars, and it seems like the stuff that's real collectable already is all pretty much rwd. DMC 12, Vette c4, 944's,Rx7,IROC,supras,Ford's Sierra rs Cosworth,etc...it seems like there was a huge shift in U.S. sales and a huge influx of foreign motorworks.

The older stuff that's pre-80s haven't all been found yet. "Barn finds" pop up everywhere everyday. I think until they're all scooped up people will be hesitant to move on...even then there might be 'one more out there'.

Those fwd 80s cars have a fight ahead of them and by the time people are ready to move on to seeing them as collectables, despite the thousands of them out there, they may become a very rare thing to have restored. I don't see Model T's everyday, but I sure see Rabbits and GTI's...wasn't it that way in the T's hayday though? In old photos of streets they're everywhere it seems.

Edited by dminer (see edit history)

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___________________________________________________________

I agree with you, and I have a question for you. Hot rods aside, how many 20's and 30's stock Buicks do you see at these meets?

These days at your average car show Hot rods aside again, how many stock cars from the 20's & 30's do you see? I can tell you not many. The local shows that are around my area have a cut off of 1979 these days with some people wanting to open that up to 25 or older. I think once it's accepted you will see these cars, but I worry more about not seeing stock cars of the 20's & 30's.

It seems to happen not only with cars , but with music too. Our oldies station does not play music of the 50's anymore, and the contemporary station which used to play songs from my parents generation (30's & 40"s) now plays 50's, 60's & 70's. The culture is just slipping away, and younger people will never be able to experience music from the great American song book.

D.

The larger Buick shows still draw a very good number of 20's and especially 30's cars

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I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now and I can't think of any fwd cars that stand out as possible collector items. Most all the fwd cars that come to mind are what I would call disposable cars.

There are folks out there collecting Taurus', Yugos, Pacers, etc. but not because there collectors items like our Buicks.

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When I read through the list of things done to the Corsica, it struck me more as a "make it right" and "maintenance" situation more than anything else. Obviously, the vehicle's other cosmetics were in reasonably good shape? If the paint was in decent condition, I think I'd much rather buff, glaze, and "slick wax" it than do a full-blown paint job just to say that I did.

Berettas were the 2-dr couple and the Corsica was the 4-dr sedan of the same platform. Berettas were pretty neat for back then. I considered specing one out with a V-6 and F41 suspension to see what it'd come up to. A decent price, all things considered. But, back then, the 2.8L V-6 had decent power, but nothing to write home about (especially in current times!!). When I set the tire pressure (on one I rented for a weekend trip) to 33 frt/29 rr, handling improved very nicely.

I don't consider "making it nice", as was done for the Corsica, to be out of whack, BUT just what any of us might have done . . . then OR now . . . if we'd been in the same situation. The mechanical stuff? Just normal maintenance, all things considered. Changing steering rack assemblies now is somewhat similar to doing valve jobs in prior decades . . . an "age/mileage-related maintenance" issue.

Enjoy that Corsica!

NTX5467

Well, you would be surprised, most people out here would just let the car go! Until it dies! We car guys would fix it, but most would feel it is not worth it. I wanted to bring it back to perfect order. The interior is near perfect, but the steering column had been replaced with a blue one, so, I repainted it and replaced the blue wheel with the original gray wheel. The car has been painted three times (once because of the factory recall in the 1990s, once because of a former friend backing into it and the final time due to a warranty on the paint, it was fish eyed!). It has the 2.0 V-4 Iron Duke, most of it is really plain, it does not have power locks or windows or cruise or any of the other fancy stuff! It has the basic interior but, it is near perfect and it has 79k on it! The reason why I replaced and had the hood painted was due to the old prop rod being mid way up the hood (they changed it the next model year) and over time the hood became warped and did not close right. So, I placed a new prop rod along the front of the hood and took out the old one. I was tired of seeing the hood arching up because of the old prop! Also, my friend when he replaced the other hood a few years ago with the one I took off and replaced, he did not get it painted the right color and that bugged me too!

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I've been thinking about this thread for a few days now and I can't think of any fwd cars that stand out as possible collector items. Most all the fwd cars that come to mind are what I would call disposable cars.

There are folks out there collecting Taurus', Yugos, Pacers, etc. but not because there collectors items like our Buicks.

Since you threw out the Buick name, I think those with Reatta's in particular might take exception to your comment.

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Since you threw out the Buick name.

Not sure what you meant by that.

To each his own, some folks collect newer cars, its just not my thing... Nothing wrong with collecting newer cars, its just my opinion many of them won't be saught after by collectors in the future.

Edited by Kingoftheroad (see edit history)

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Not sure what you meant by that.

To each his own, some folks collect newer cars, its just not my thing...

exactly, and to some that collect the newer cars, the older ones just are not their thing.

Also, just because a car is old, does not make it "collectible".

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___________________________________________________________

I agree with you, and I have a question for you. Hot rods aside, how many 20's and 30's stock Buicks do you see at these meets?

These days at your average car show Hot rods aside again, how many stock cars from the 20's & 30's do you see? I can tell you not many. The local shows that are around my area have a cut off of 1979 these days with some people wanting to open that up to 25 or older. I think once it's accepted you will see these cars, but I worry more about not seeing stock cars of the 20's & 30's.

It seems to happen not only with cars , but with music too. Our oldies station does not play music of the 50's anymore, and the contemporary station which used to play songs from my parents generation (30's & 40"s) now plays 50's, 60's & 70's. The culture is just slipping away, and younger people will never be able to experience music from the great American song book.

D.

This is off topic but realistically most restored '20s and '30s cars have no business on the typical freeway or even most Interstate Highways, maybe not even on streets with posted speed limits of 45 mph, though some of them might do that speed okay. But will they stop? It might even be questionable if most restored or original 1940s cars should be driven on freeways and Interstates. Yeah, in their day they all managed sometimes long trips, and even navigated city traffic; but it just ain't the same today. All reasons so many of those cars are not seen at events of any nature today unless they get there by trailer. Of course what shows up at cruise nights and many car shows is all about a social era that was dead has hell by the time 1980 rolled around, as I have said many times before. A really good observation that should be made or mentioned has to do with the average age of the people that do show up with a car of any nature to show off at those events. You can bet your boots that there are many more "old farts" than "young whippersnappers." The "old farts" of today were the "young whippersnappers" that were showing up at car events with some sort of ride to show off thirty and forty years ago. Anyone who thinks the changing social aspect of automobiles has not affected the overall nature of the hobby just ain't paying attention! And that is more than likely why so many of the cars produced since 1980 will never have even the special allure a lowly Pinto might have had for someone in their youth when it was produced.

We now return to our regular programming!:D

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Looks like Jim just blew off the Reliability Tours, Glidden Tours, and anything put on by the Horseless Carriage Club, either Model T Ford club, either Model A Ford club, the Early Ford V-8 Club, the Classic Car Club, and probably a few others. If I can't find someone who wants to use my brass cars as lawn art, maybe someone can use them as boat anchors.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

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Looks like Jim just blew off the Reliability Tours, Glidden Tours, and anything put on by the Horseless Carriage Club, either Model T Ford club, either Model A Ford club, the Early Ford V-8 Club, the Classic Car Club, and probably a few others. If I can't find someone who wants to use my brass cars as lawn art, maybe someone can use them as boat anchors.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

With respect to the personal safety involved in putting many pre 1950 cars on the typical highway or city thoroughfares today I suppose I did. Reality can be an absolute bear! Just because someone has a car of pre 1950 vintage does not mean the rest of the world is required to accommodate them on major traffic arteries. I would suggest that even you have a reluctance to take your Brass Era car out on the streets where you live. In essence you have made your own car "Yard Art." When was the last time you chose to jump into your car on a Friday or Saturday night and drive it to some sort of cruise-in event?

As an example of borderline lunacy I will direct you to the Glidden Tour scheduled for October 12 of this year in Brenham, Texas, which is quite near where I live. Being quite familiar with the area, the roads and traffic conditions in the tour route I can say without equivocation the participants will be at considerable risk from just being on the two lane roads that are often quite curvy and have considerable grade hills. Those two lane roads are also the route often traveled by 18 wheelers to make connections between major highways. Those 80,000 pound trucks do push the 65 and 70 mph speed limit along the route 24/7 and could easily top a hill and wipe out several cars chugging along at a much lesser speed. No Thanks!

Just for grins, I'll direct you to the VMCCA site for various tours, which oddly enough have scheduled "Muscle Car" tours. I guess those cars are now considered "Veteran Motor Cars."

This year

A description of the original Glidden promotional tours.

"The tours were gruelling events: cars broke down, were damaged by accidents, and encountered nearly impassable roads. Drivers and teams did repairs on the run and helped out other drivers having difficulties."

I would suggest little has changed beyond the nature of the road surfaces encountered.

Edited by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

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