Moving Reatta prototype convertible

[Barney Eaton]

I also made a mistake in suggesting the pledge system without contacting Ed. Ed will do back flips to work with us. I am sorry that I did something that was not first check out.

BJM, on the museum location.

We originally tried to get it to the Olds museum in Lansing. They actually wanted a Reatta because the car was built in Lansing. However financial problems has caused them to tighten the purse strings and they changed their minds.

Kingsley thought the Peterson museum in LA was going for it but something turned sour there.

One problem we have with museums, they want cars......then they decide what to do with them. If they are complete, unique, valuable, etc the will retain them and put them on rotating display. The rest are put up for sale to bring funds into the museum bank account.

This car and all the other donated Reattas technically still belong to GM. They all have stickers on the windshield that says they are the property of GM and cannot be driven on the street. I have been told the GM holds a Michigan "Scrap" title on all these cars. All of this is legal mumbo jumbo....... GM wrote off the cars way back in '90-'91 so they got tax credit. Technically (I don't know how the IRS would view it) they possibly do not own the car, but there is a paper trail back to GM, should one of these cars get titled and be involved in a seriour accident, some lawyer would attemp to bring GM into a law suit.

I personally believe all the windshield stickers and paperwork is legal CYA, and that GM does not own the car because they were written off on their taxas. However that issue is bigger that us, the Reatta div, or the BCA, so we are just trying to save this car.

You may have an opininon on the need to save it but I believe it is a significant Reatta and needs to be somewhere that people can see it and get a history lesson.

By the same token, there are 20-30 1991 convertibles at other tech schools that have very low mileage and they too could be saved. If you know a museum that would sign up for the car on "loan" then go for it, I will assist in finding schools that want to get rid of their car.

What you must remember, the schools that have the car do not want to irritate GM, so they must comply with the original GM agreement, the schools are still getting cars, motors, transmissions and other training equipment from GM and they do not want to jepardize that arrangement.

[Guest BJM]

Thanks for the clarification. OK Ed, $25 check on the way.

Barney,

I was just trying to figure out why this car was so important. I am sure there are others. I was trying to understand if this car carried some obvious clues that it would make it interesting to view.

Kingsley and Barney,

I would NOT want to deal with these museums. I guess the most important thing is that the San Diego museum will restore it, as I understand. I also hope the division gets right of first refusal if they want to sell it, but that's unlikely as you state Barney because it was a GM car.

I am not a Reatta Div member, I am a BCA, AACA, ROA member. I do have a Reatta Div Sweatshirt from the 2010 Nationals.

[jonlabree]

Didn't GM file for bankruptcy not long ago and the name was also involved?

They changed their name and dumped the GM name. Did they file for and get title for all of these cars in thier new name?

[wws944]

Venturing the tiny bit I know about tax law, just because they 'wrote it off on their taxes' does not mean they do not own it. Any accountant will tell you that assets are written off all the time, yet ownership remains in the organization.

However Jon is right: bankrupcy is another matter. It is quite possible that the agreements belong to an entity which no longer exists.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

However Jon is right: bankrupcy is another matter. It is quite possible that the agreements belong to an entity which no longer exists.

Barney and all. It is interesting to read how you are trying to honor an agreement with an entity that no longer exists. As we all know, the GM that build, owned and donated these Reattas no longer exists. You are trying to dance with a dead man. Just like the Reatta and Riviera trademarks, there is no ownership of these by the new GM that is currently operating. Since they were written off and donated, they could not have been claimed as an asset that was then incorporated into the new GM as part of its inception.

Any agreements between the old GM and the institutions that were given these assets are null and void since that GM no longer exists. This of course would not extend to any donations undertaken by the new GM which would run until an expiration date was reached or until either party ceases to exist.

Since these cars did not come with titles, they can not be registered as a motor vehicle for use on the street. The cars can now be sold or donated by the institutions as private property like a normal asset, but without a title traceable back to GM that was properly transferred over time, they would be not be eligible to be registered and driven in most all states.

The fact that these vehicles most likely were rejects from the assembly line, or were modified in some way from the normal production design that was approved for sale by the NTSB and other governing agencies, they should be treated as such and not attempted to be put on the highways as drivable vehicles. If they were passed off as such, the party responsible for allowing this to happen would be liable for an issues resulting, just like reselling a vehicle with a salvage title without divulging this to the buyer, but the old GM would be out of that picture.

[Guest Kingsley]

McReatta's comments and those of others relating to legal status of this car are interesting and will be used to maximum advantage in due course when transfer is being accomplished.

Pictures of the car are now on Photobucket and the link will be given shortly so everyone can take a look at her.

Included in the photos is one of a placard on the windshield setting forth the conditions that were imposed upon the recipient, be they the the present possessor or future and they were certainly intended to limit the the options that available.

My take on this is that the forthcoming transfer is, indeed, a continuation of the educational purposes outlined. The San Diego Automotive Museum Director of Research, who will be involved in the transfer, has infomed us that they have experience in situations such as and are confident that transfer can be accomplished. The information outlined in the recent posts will be passed along to them and we appreciate it being set forth.

A broad brush statement of what is to be accomplished is to have the Reatta transferred, restored and displayed in the Museum with a placard reflecting that it's presence in the Museum was made possible through the efforts of the Reatta Division, BCA, and all of the donors involved and in the interest in perpetuating and preserving the Buick Reatta automobile. These are just my words as they roll off but believe they set forth the line of thinking that is desired.

No museum will contribute to transportation costs in vehicle transfer so this is why we need your support. Thanks.

[Guest Kingsley]

Here is the link: Pictures by HKBJKR - Photobucket.

Thanks for looking and we collectively will be glad to answer any questions, technical or otherwise, that you may have.

[Guest blue72beetle]

BJM, yes there are items on this car that make it unique, as a prototype, and even as a production car.

-No top, you couldn't even put one on it, there's no where to plug into.

-Pull down motors, odd because there's no top, and they weren't added until 91.

-Pre-production location of the tonneau release switch.

-Odd shaped 3rd brake light.

-'Reatta' script on the underhood insulation panel.

I took photos of all the obvious items that were different from production models.

[farnelle]

Ok guys and gals. It seems like a lot of folks view this site and many post. So far we have $603 committed from 9 people. There must be a few more out there that are interested in helping to save this Reatta.

By the way, I do not believe this forum is the place to discuss pay pal and other Reatta Division issues. We have an annual meeting for members and a Board of Directors. Interested members should make their feelings known by calling, writing or emailing club officers.

I have made a note to discuss Pay Pal at the annual meeting. Until then we are going to remain in the 90's. Contrary to information I have seen several times on this forum, the RDiv is not losing members and I would be very surprised if not accepting Pay Pal has cost us any new members. I will agree that Pay Pal may be more convenient for the member, but there is more to the story. I am a member of seven different car clubs and they do not all accept Pay Pal.

Regards,

Ed

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Regardless of the changes in the legalities that have taken place, it is extremely fortuitous that this particular car was found and suitable arrangements made to save it.

Kudos to all involved to date for all their efforts to save this one.

We should take this opportunity to work out considerations for how to handle these discoveries in the future should another one come to light.

I think that we would all pretty much agree that the educational uses for these cars (which was the primary reason for them being given out by GM in the first place) have long since past. It's really hard to believe that any of them would be held onto by the organizations that received them.

I'm reasonably sure there is a short shopping list of cars that if found would be automatic candidates for undertaking efforts to protect and preserve them.

Finding a museum willing to take them in is probably the most ideal situation but we should have other options available just in case. Would the club be willing to pay for a car if the organization was not willing to donate it? If so, how much and who would take ownership? Would it be better for a car to end up in a private collection rather than a crusher if no other means of saving it can be arranged? Would one of our dismantles be willing to part out one of these cars and share the profit with the owner so that some of the money from the parts from a car that has no historic significance could be turned back for educational purposes in keeping with the original donation. That to me makes a lot of sense in keeping with the wishes of GM to aid education, keeping unsafe cars off the road, and helps us keep our cars on the road. A possible win, win, win for those cars that are not worth preserving for historic reasons.

Not sure how many donor Reattas are still out there to be found. Hard to believe any donor cars would have been held onto this long in the back of some training facility. But who knows, that polo green vert may still be lost in an out building on the campus of MSU. Will it end up in a museum, a private collection or a recycling yard? We should have a plan just in case.

[Rawja]

Put me down for $100. Mailing it out with my RDiv renewal today.

[Guest Kingsley]

Roger - thanks very much for your support of this project - it is certainly appreciated by everyone and a reflection of your respect for the Reatta automobile and the activities that accompany it.

[Guest Kingsley]

Ronnie - thanks for your participation and suggestion involving the Reatta parts vendors in making contributions to this cause. So as a measure of my support from that perspective, my contribution has been increased by $100.

Any undertaking like this must have an element of mirth. To that end, I recall the joke about a diverse gender and nationality mixed group of mountain hikers who were viciously attacked by a male and female bear. The group was anguished and distraught and was trying to pinpoint precisely what happened. Finally, one of the survivors said "I think the Czech is in the male".

Ed - my second check is in the mail.

Should this post be offensive to anyone, express thyself and I will save the wheat and delete the chaff!

[Ronnie]

Kingsley, my meager donation pales in comparison to the time and money you have donated to this project. Thanks for everything you're doing to try and save this car. I hope the museum gives the car the attention and work it will need once it is in their hands. I hope it doesn't get sold off for cash as has been said sometimes happens to cars donated to museums.

[Guest Kingsley]

Ronnie, thanks. I think the comments previously expressed by me in post 46 pretty well lay out principles that will preclude any actions to the contrary by the recipient. Any commitment that falls significantly short of what I have outlined will have a definite impact on everything and I, personally speaking, have little wiggle room on this. The Board make wish to make their comments on this also.

Also, if I have not sent my personal thanks to each Donor, I send my apologies and hope that it will be accepted.

I should also mention that, while my time can be limited on occasion, I am considerably more free than most folks and have greater opportunity read the Forum posts and to pound these keys! Sometimes to the point that even I get tired of myself. Somehow, lightness strikes again and even my wife does not like it!

Having said that, there is no lightness in my commitment and that of others in our approach to this project.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Kingsley (see edit history)

[Jim]

I fully concur with Ronnie on kudos to Kingsley for all he has done on this project and what is left to do.

I wanted to send my contribution in Kingsleys name for this reason and for others but also felt, like Ronnie pointed out, that ALL the vendors, not just myself and Marck, should contribute to this endeavor.

Thank you Kingsley and Barney and anyone else doing the leg work.

I would like to remind, this is not a solely Reatta division project and you do not have to be a member of the Reatta division to get involved. The shipping money is being handled by the Reatta division but preserving the car is for the good of all Reatta owners and those who like the Reatta. I will probably never get to see the car. I am envious of our California members who will be able to.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Jim (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

I sell parts [or should I say give parts] however I will donate $50.00 towards the cause. [Check is going out today].

How about all of us who have come on line and recieved FREE advice that save us $100.00s in repairs?

That should be worth SOMETHING...

[padgett]

Check is on way. IM'd Ed.

Heck if you need a place to put it I'll find one. Sure any of a number of others would do the same.

Think simplest answer to make roadable would be a hardtop. Allante maybe ?

Legal opinion would be advisable but know of several states where a title would be possible though a quit claim from GM would help.

[Booreatta]

I sell parts [or should I say give parts] however I will donate $50.00 towards the cause. [Check is going out today].

How about all of us who have come on line and recieved FREE advice that save us $100.00s in repairs?

That should be worth SOMETHING...

Dave you are 100% correct. The money that most members of the discussion group has saved must amount to a TON of bucks. What with Barney, Ronnie, Jim, Padgett and all of the parts vendors an awful lot of money is saved to keep our cars running. I know that Ronnie has challanged all parts vendors to send a check, but I will take it one step further. If you have used the free advise on the discussion, take the time to send a check. If everyone who has used this forum sends a check today we will reach our goal this weekend.

Lets all make it happen

Chuck Kerls

[farnelle]

As of 3/8/12 at 8:00PM EST I have received or had pledged a total of $1,238.00 from 18 donors. That puts us over half way. Great Job!!!!

Ed

[Guest 89Reatta]

Make that $1,338 total! Please put me down for $100. I have learned so much from the great members on this forum over the last 18 months to improve my car, to me this is a very small payback. I am not a member of the BCA so this is my small way of saying "thanks."

Cody

[Guest Kingsley]

Roger McCrone (reattas.com), the fellow who purchased all of Speedway's parts inventory called to say that he is in for $200 and mailing a check today.

What is it now, $1538 or so?

Edited March 9, 2012 by Kingsley
Typos (see edit history)

[farnelle]

ARE WE THROUGH HERE? I have not had any new commitments for that past couple of days. At some point soon I will announce the end of the drive to solicit funds for this project so I do not have to be concerned about what to do with any excess funds. However, we are not there yet. There is time to jump in.

Ed

[Ronnie]

Aren't you closing the bank a little early? Maybe some folks haven't been in a hurry to get their donation in due to your previous statement quoted below. It lead me to believe it was a long term project. How much has been raised as of today, Saturday March 10th?

OK, the bank is officially open. I will collect all donations received over the next several weeks. All checks received to help move the prototype, will not be cashed until all arrangements have been finalized. I will post the total received on this thread once a week until we reach the $1,900 goal starting next Saturday March 10th.

[farnelle]

I did not say the bank was closed. I said "at some point soon" I would announce the end. The last sentence encouraged folks to help get us to the goal. Total pledges so far are $1,588 although I do not have all the money in hand.

[KDirk]

Ed,

I have my check for $60 going out today (finally - have been sidetracked all week) along with my RDiv renewal.

KDirk

[Booreatta]

I did not say the bank was closed. I said "at some point soon" I would announce the end. The last sentence encouraged folks to help get us to the goal. Total pledges so far are $1,588 although I do not have all the money in hand.

If I remember correctly there was also a motion on the table from Nancy Eaton for the RDiv to pay the bill to move the car. I dont know if the officers ever voted on that or not. The other few bucks might have to come from there. When you have time why dont you post the names of the folks who donated just dont post the amounts. the person that sent just a few bucks are as important who sent big checks.

Set a date and close the bank. That will set the deadline.

Ed thanks for taking care of this

Chuck Kerls

booreatta@cox.net

[Guest tempest6cyl]

BJM, yes there are items on this car that make it unique, as a prototype, and even as a production car.

-Pull down motors, odd because there's no top, and they weren't added until 91.

-Odd shaped 3rd brake light.

While not mentioned in your post, the power pull downs were in the header on this car and not in the tonneau, correct ?

The CHMSL was off the Corvette at the time. Initially the whole housing was going to be used on the Reatta but it set 'on' the surface. Eventually styling won and a new housing that blended into the tonneau outer skin was developed.

[Barney Eaton]

Tempest........ without close inspection it is not obvious that this car had a different header.

Attached is a photo that Kingsley posted that is the best header shot. The header on this car looks different from production but I have not done a comparison.

Does not really matter because this car does not have a top.

I did notice it does not have a Reatta type radio, some of you may notice some other differences.

[padgett]

Interesting. Radio appears to be from an early 80's big Buick (think I've seen that model before) & something is going on at the top of the HVAC thingie that does not look rite. Console looks like for a CD which is not there.

[Guest blue72beetle]

Is this the power pull down motor? I photographed this as it looks nothing like the storage compartment in my '90.

[Guest tempest6cyl]

Barney, I agree that the placement of the pull downs doesn't matter for this cars function but, I am still curious where they were for refreshing my own memories and maybe adding to the groups general interest of the Reatta and it's development. Blue beetle mentioned that the car had pull downs yet, I don't see them in photos of the inside and outside of the tonneau, the eventual production location. That got me wondering what he had seen. One of the other shots from Kingsley's photobucket files shows the header receiver at a closer range which possibly shows a larger hole in the trim plate for clearance to the revolving receiver. ASC was developing power pull downs before the Reatta program showed up and was trying to sell them to any program that came in the door. Their existence on this car would tell me this car came from them and was not something Buick had made on their own. Plus, I think we did look at initially putting them in the header but the package caused the header to be larger than wanted. The other thing I noted in the pictures was the absence of the underbody rail caps. These were some of the first parts added in the program so I'm sure this car was not an engineering prototype. I'm still convinced that this was one of the showcars made by ASC for Buick and the autoshow circuit.

Edited March 11, 2012 by tempest6cyl
typo (see edit history)

[Guest tempest6cyl]

Is this the power pull down motor? I photographed this as it looks nothing like the storage compartment in my '90.

No. It reminds me of the decklid release solenoid. You couldn't tell if it was attached to the tonneau release could you ?

[KDirk]

The device in the photo posted just above (with the blue wiring hanging down) is definitely a solenoid. In fact, it rather looks like a fuel door release solenoid. Perhaps this part was re-purposed for prototyping on the 'vert?

And, the radio _could_ be a Cadillac or Buick base radio from an earlier model year, it does have the silver inlays on the two knobs. Cannot tell much detail from the picture that shows it. Are there any additional pictures available? I'm also wondering if this had a fully functional SIR (air bag) system. Obviously, the bag has been removed, but did they graft in the Sir module and sensors, or was this just for looks being that it was built from an 88 and the interior was swapped?

Very curious...

KDirk

Edited March 11, 2012 by KDirk (see edit history)

[wws944]

The stereo is definitely looks like the base cassette unit from late '80s/early '90s big Buicks. Nothing special. The HVAC controller also looks normal.

Tempest: Do you happen to recall how many of these show cars were built?

[Guest tempest6cyl]

I know there were at least two but, I have this voice in the back of my head saying there was a third.

Re-purposing parts for a show car was standard practice. The main objective was to get a car out on the circuit to get the general public excited. As long as there was a radio, where it came from was less important. No one was going to spend big money on special parts that hadn't been developed yet so you make existing stuff work. If you could look inside the rockers, you'll probably find some angle iron in them. Show cars need to go on and off trucks without collapsing. They're not meant to go down the road at 70 mph.

Back on the solenoid. Please refresh my memory. The decklid solenoid is actually attached directly to the latch while the fuel door solenoid was attached to it's latch with a cable, correct ? I know we eventually used the decklid latches for the tonneau except they had a different manual release lever.

[Barney Eaton]

Tempest....... look closely at the pin receivers on the boot and you will notice the hole does not go thru the boot. The black plastic parts only makes it look like a production assembly.

On the subject of power pull downs. Most 1990 Reatta convertible literature says the cars have power pull downs, but we all know that it was not put into production until the 1991 model year.

This brings up the question of why. One could speculate there was a problem with them working correctly, but if ASC had them well before the Reatta, the bugs should be worked out. Other possibilities might be cost, did ASC initally want too much for the units? Are the 1990 mechanical latches the same as some other GM convertible? I don't think anyone has done any indepth research into the pull downs. It might be valuable information when someone has a problem and needs replacement parts.

[Guest Kingsley]

tempest6cyl - your knowledge on this is most important and very much appreciated. It complements what others are putting forth very much. By all means, let us have all the background that you can come up with as it most certainly adds to the information we can give the Museum and be a part of the overall presentation. With your background, you are truly in a unique position.

Thanks to all!

[KDirk]

wws944-

Thanks for posting the close up view of the radio/climate head. Yes, that is a Buick radio (exact provenance escapes me presently) although there was a nearly identical (re-skinned face plate) version used by Cadillac. This, of course, is not surprising as GM did a lot of re-purposing of parts to be used in different models/years.

What is unclear is why they used this unit. I suppose the stock 90/91 radio might not have been in production at the time this prototype was built out, yet the instrument cluster and climate head are clearly regular production. It has the CD cubbyhole adapter which was a special part just for the 90/91 (Riviera had the "wood" finished version) so the trim plastics were already available at the time this was done. We'll probably never know.

Tempest-

on the solenoid, the fuel release usually did have a cable (not direct) attachment so I should clarify that I do not think it was the exact same part, but perhaps one that was adapted somehow. The length and diameter of the solenoid body does look very much like the type commonly used for the fuel door latch release, so that was my first impression. Wish I could get a close up look (in person) at this car to examine some of these oddities for myself. Hopefully someone will have the opportunity to scrutinize this car more closely and report their findings.

KDirk

[jonlabree]

Looks like it originally had a CD player, as the opening is divided in two. One for the CD player and a cubby hole under it.