Plentiful Packards & Pierces vs Rare Peerlesses

[jeff_a]

Does anyone have any opinions why there are so many more Packards and Pierce-Arrows around than Peerlesses?

As near as I can tell, the ratio is 5,000 Packards to 1,900 Pierce-Arrows to 319 Peerlesses.

[trimacar]

If you're talking ALL Packards, the number is higher than that I'm sure, with the Junior series of the thirties and forties thrown in.

I would think it all starts with production numbers. I don't have the numbers, but would guess that Packard outsold Pierce for most all years of production, and then of course, in 1938 Pierce made a handful of cars before shutting down, Packard made 2500 Senior cars and tens of thousands of Junior cars. Peerless was long gone by then, and I'm sure their production numbers were under even Pierce.

The numbers you mention, are those from Club membership numbers?

If so, I can tell you in the case of the Pierce, for every car listed in the roster, there's at least one, and probably two, more out there. They might be KNOWN to someone in the society, but they aren't listed in the roster.

Interesting question, does someone have production numbers, let's say from 1900 to 1941, for the Three P's?

[poci1957]

I happen to have a one year snapshot handy, and it might be a surprise to you. This is 1916 final production and 1917 introduction pricing, from the Standard Catalog of American Cars.

Packard 10,645 Prices $3950-$5500

Peerless 4210 Prices $1980-$3350

Pierce 1647 Prices $4800-$6100

We can see that the Peerless production is actually pretty good BUT the prices put it squarely in the upper medium price class and half the price of an entry level Packard. The Pierce Arrow is at the top of the price class and is in fact the most expensive American car that year of the 36 makes that I sampled. To me this shows Peerless was already moving downmarket and trading on their name as their competitors kept their prestige (and price and profits) up. My notes indicate sales had almost doubled since 1914 as the prices came down and the company had been in the midst of changes in management and philosophy.

Sound familiar? That is right--just like Packard after WWII. This is of course just one point in time, but I thought it was interesting. Todd C

[trimacar]

Pierce was making some wonderful cars in the late teens.....works of art....

[jeff_a]

trimacar,

Thanks for replying. On Packard, I'd be counting 1899-1956. If we scaled this back to not include the postwar Packards...the Packards wouldn't look so well-preserved. Better yet, we should use 1899-1931, when all three companies were around -- more or less. I asked around and think I got estimates of 1,400, 1,900 and 2,500 on surviving Pierce-Arrows with 1,400 being a Pierce-Arrow Society figure, if I recall correctly. As a Pierce-Arrow owner, you probably have better access to accurate numbers than I.

poci1957,

Thanks for chiming in on this post. It's interesting to see these comparative figures. I have included some for 1923. I think Peerless had decided to go after the Cadillac market by 1917, but what I've read suggests they had their hands full building trucks for the war, which Packard and Pierce-Arrow were doing, too. Peerless managed to increase their sales, eventually, to what you have listed for Packard, but that wasn't until 1926.

1. Packard 13,832
   
2. Peerless 4,775
   
3. Pierce-Arrow 1,669
   
4. Cadillac 17,809
   

Anyway, I wind up with a ratio of about 6 surviving Pierces and 16 surviving Packards for every surviving Peerless.

----Jeff

Edited January 27, 2012 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Hi-I don't believe there's any accurate figure on Pierce survival rates, and this probably applies to almost any car ever made, unless it was a one-off.

The Pierce Arrow Society has member cars listed.

This doesn't account for cars that are known but not listed, or are still out there waiting to be discovered.

I found 2 Pierce Arrows about 3 years ago, that no one knew about.....and there are still discoveries being made. So, numbers are very difficult.........

[poci1957]

I think Peerless had decided to go after the Cadillac market by 1917, but what I've read suggests they had their hands full building trucks for the war, which Packard and Pierce-Arrow were doing, too. Peerless managed to increase their sales, eventually, to what you have listed for Packard, but that wasn't until 1926.

Hi Jeff, you are correct about both Cadillac and the truck business, which is an area that even veteran hobbyists are often unaware of.

If you add Cadillacs to my chart you would find them with 18,004 in sales and pricing from $2240-$3910, so indeed Peerless was more aligned with that price level. Also in that mix were Willys Knight and Franklin.

[alsancle]

Hi-I don't believe there's any accurate figure on Pierce survival rates, and this probably applies to almost any car ever made, unless it was a one-off.

Duesenberg would be the exception as every head bolt & tie-rod can be accounted for.

I've always assumed that Peerless are seldom seen because production stopped in 1932 (approx) and by WWII they were at a minimum 10 years old and prime for the scrap heap.

[jeff_a]

I don't know what total production of Packard vehicles was. Well above 200,000, I'm sure. I believe Pierce-Arrow output was about 85,000 (1901-1938) and Peerless output was about 107,000 (1900-1931).

Surveying the Peerless numbers as I often do, it's interesting to note that about a quarter of all surviving Peerless cars are 1929s and 1927s.

Edited January 27, 2012 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[A. Ballard 35R]

If you check the online Packard roster you will find an extremely accurate record of surviving Packards made from 1899 through the 3rd series twin in the early 1920s. Packard production numbers for this period are also available so that it shouldn't be that hard to determine the survival rate.

[trimacar]

What online Packard roster are you referencing, and could you provide a link to it on the Internet? I'd like to see it....thanks -dc

[A. Ballard 35R]

The web site is Packards Online and is very accurate up to the 1922 3rd series twins. Let me know if you need to contact the present roster keeper.

[trimacar]

That's a great roster for the early cars. I know Terry Martin, he made the body for my 1910 Buick Model 16, a real craftsman, and being from Warren he surely likes the early Packards.

It's very difficult to keep an accurate, up to date roster, with owners. I did it once about 10 years ago for Buick, 1909 and 1910 Models 16 and 17. Found about 50 cars, and by the time I had it finished, there were cars being bought and sold, and so, while I had the cars accounted for, the owner list became obsolete.

Hats off to anyone who keeps one current.....

[packard lover]

OK, with very few Peerlesses being bought and sold, is the asking price for the one on eBay realistic?

[trimacar]

Duesenbergs might be the best documented, that's for sure....but I knew of a sedan that lived not far from where I live now, and the historians didn't know about it.....so I'm convinced there are at least one or two out there not captured....the world's a big place...

[Richard Lichtfel]

The problem with Peerless was all the stock take- overs and changes of management. In 1912 GE took over control of Peerless and they went more into trucks than cars. In 1914 Peerless produced less than 300 cars but they had one order for 12,000 trucks. They were even building FWD's under contract with the Clinton company. In 1916 they came out with new models at lower prices trying to get back into the car market but even though all Peerless were very good cars they never again were able to regain the prestige they had in the early days.

RHL

[jeff_a]

Packard Lover In Utica,

Sorry not to get back to you earlier regarding that car on eBay. You asked if the starting price was realistic, "...with very few Peerlesses being bought and sold". There's an earlier mention of this on the Peerless Forums "Peerless For Sale Dept" thread, 1/17/12, post #6.

The $59,900 price is a Buy It Now price. With the limited amount of info one can get from reading the ad, I would say that would be a high starting price but o.k. for a B.I.N. price. Auction runs untill FEB 6.

The auto is almost certainly a 1930 or 1931 straight-8 Peerless Model A, or Standard Eight. As certain as, say, Chevrolet starts with a "C". I haven't seen the vehicle or talked to the owner. If it's everything the pictures show, everything works, engine's great and it's a rare car, it should be worth high rather than low dollars. My reading of the Peerlesses-still-in-existence-list says 5 to 8 Peerless Standard 8s exist.

The Standard Eights had an 85 HP Continental straight-8 engine of 246.7 c.i.d. and 2,032 were built. List price was $1,495-1,595. The marketing department felt that the model was competing for buyers of the following:

• Hupmobile 8
  
• Studebaker 8
  
• Marmon, Mod. 69
  
• Nash 8
  

There is no way I can tell anyone what the car is worth, especially from a distance. On a marque-specific publication like this, one is more likely to read "buy it -- it's great" than negatives -- and I'm no exception, but I'll put up another post with a ton of negatives and a ton of positives. I don't have access to any value guides except The Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942, VOL I (1996). It says: $3700/4700/7300/13700/26000......Condition: #5/4/3/2/1, respectively.

The best thing going for the car is that it represents the last and one of the best efforts of the Peerless Company. I feel that the 1930s Peerlesses are among the companys best designs. Wager in Golden Wheels (1986) says: "Peerless models for 1930 and 1931 were widely acclaimed, particularly for their quality of styling..." and Kimes, Clark, Dinwoody and Marvin say in The Standard Catalog: "...the Peerless line for 1930 was a styling tour de force because the brilliant young Russian emigre Alexis de Sakhnoffsky was hired to design it."

----Jeff

Edited January 27, 2012 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

The 1930/31 Peerless Standard Eight for Sale On E-bay

Negatives:

1. The upholstery: (are there seat covers?) it's a little hard to tell from the photos, but doesn't look great.
   
2. Not a CCCA Classic.
   
3. Not ultra-powerful.
   
4. Not a make everyone's chasing.
   
5. Not a big car, compared to some.
   
6. Average person not familiar with the marque.
   
7. Not Common: you'll never be able to go to a car show and park in the "Standard Eight Peerless Section".
   
8. The smallest of 3 1930s Peerless 8 models (118", 125", and 138" wheelbases).
   
9. There are few enough Peerlesses that finding parts could be a problem. All of the remaining 1930, 31 & 32 Peerlesses would fit in a Pizza Hut parking lot.
   
10. Not a good choice if you want to select an antique car because it's a plentiful make or model or because everyone else shows up on tours with them. According to Classic Car Club of America figures from about 5 years ago, 388,980 Cadillacs and 336,779 Packards of models approved as Full Classics were built, but only 6,445 Peerlesses....so it might be too hard to get a model like this approved (fewer are familiar with it).
    

Positives:

1. Has the Classic Car Look with the long hood, long sweeping fenders, DSMs and wire wheels.
   
2. If I had one, I'd genuinely enjoy campaigning it for Full Classic status, even if I never succeeded.
   
3. 108% more powerful than a 1930 Ford.
   
4. Peerlesses are rarer than Duesenbergs.
   
5. Coachwork designed by Sakhnoffsky.
   
6. Peerless a celebrated luxury car 100 years ago.
   
7. Not a "belly button car" (everyone has one).
   
8. One of the last models ever produced by this company.
   
9. There is a Peerless Motor Car Club for fans and owners of Peerless cars & trucks.
   
10. An AACA Classic, would show in class 19A, not that anyone ever has(whoever does so will be the first).
    

Edited March 5, 2012 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

A. Ballard 35R,

Thanks for the link to the earliest surviving Packards. Very interesting to look through!

----Jeff

[jeff_a]

packard lover,

The red Peerless sedan could be a 1930 because of the 4-spoke steering wheel, or a 1931 because of the 2-blade bumpers. Source: Golden Wheels by Richard Wager, 1986, the story of automobile manufacturers of northeast Ohio.

----Jeff

[alsancle]

The 32 Custom 8 that Tom Laferriere sold last year was much nicer, a full classic and I believe he only wanted 35k.

[jeff_a]

alsancle,

You're right, a bigger, nicer car. The Peerless Custom 8 Tom Laferriere sold was a couple of rungs higher up the ladder than the Standard 8. A 322 instead of a 247. About 120 h.p. instead of 85, and a much longer wheelbase. Oddly enough, the engine stroke is greater on the Standard: 4 3/4" vs. 4 1/2".

The two models are about equally rare in terms of numbers of surviving cars, and I've never heard of a Standard Eight in a show or tour. The only one I've seen good photos of in the U.S. is in the Kansas City area.

I don't know if this 1930 Peerless "Model A" sold or not. An information request sent to the consignors, regrettably, went unanswered.

----Jeff

Edited March 5, 2012 by jeff_a (see edit history)