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Trying to start 1953 Super for the first time.


WillBilly53

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I got everything hooked up so far: brand new wiring harness, rebuilt engine, recored radiator, new battery, spark plugs/wires correctly installed, etc. Everything is ready to go. so I held my breath and turned the key but there's nothing indicating that things are "on". The only thing that works is the dome light (and door buttons for it). No headlight action or instrument lights. Could it be the ignition switch?

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Guest Rob McDonald

"...turned the key..." Of course, you also pushed the gas pedal, right? The starter switch is on the carb. Just checkin', is all.

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If you follow Robs advice above and it still does not start, look for this:

Watch the Ampmeter when you turn the key from OFF to ON. You should see a slight and momentary dip towards the negative side. With the key on also check your signal lights. Either side, they should work with the key on and again the ampmeter should make the momentary dip as the lights light up. Also check your headlights. They should come on regardless of key position and the ampmeter ought to make a more serious dip towards the negative.

If none of that works, calmly get out, open the hood and disconnect the battery. Just joking... but if this stuff does not work then obviously something is hooked up incorrectly.

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Thanks for the promo Rob!

Sooooo.... I have to carefully press the starter (vacuum?)switch on the carb with my hand, because I'm missing a retention spring on the throttle linkage making the gas pedal a little goofy. So anyways, I did give it some gas so to speak, but still nothing. Headlamps don't come on, but it is possible they are bad. Turn signal lights are no where to be found in my many boxes of parts, lol. Ammeter is not connected, so looks like I've got to make some more connections. It just seems like nothing is on at all.

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All, and I do mean ALL of the car's electricity flows through the ammeter, and if I remember correctly from when I did a '53 Special, even the ignition switch current flows through the ammeter, so if you don't have the meter hooked up, you arent' going to start the car or get anything else, for that matter.

Pete Phillips

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Will

Enjoy the beer! In order for the usual starting system to work you need functioning and correctly connected generator, voltage regulator, and vacuum switch. If you just want to start it, turn on the key and verify that you have voltage at the coil (it will not be 12v if your ballast resistor is connected --- this is normal). Then jump 12v (+) to the wire that connects the starter relay and the solenoid (on my 55 it is black...); it should crank and start. Be sure the wheels are blocked and that the tranny in in park or neutral since this will bypass the safety switch.

Willie

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Thanks Willie! As I sip on some Bellhaven Scottish Ale, some things have occurred to my little brain. What exactly connects to the vacuum control on the distributor and would this affect my current situation? I thought it was the oil pressure gauge, but the manual says that this installs on the crankcase near the distributor.

So I checked for voltage at the coil and I got .56 when I set the voltmeter to "20".

Can you tell I don't know what I'm doing?

(just so everyone knows, I've stopped working on her for the night, because I've got beer in hand. Don't particularly want to start the year of dead. :)

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Speaking of batteries - I might should mention that I bought the cheapest 12 volt at pep boys for the time being. It has a CCA rating of 525 at 0 degrees and 655 above 32 degrees. The actual OE replacement battery from Antique Auto Battery has a rating of 850. Was wondering if this could be part of my problem as well?

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What exactly connects to the vacuum control on the distributor and would this affect my current situation? I thought it was the oil pressure gauge, but the manual says that this installs on the crankcase near the distributor.

So I checked for voltage at the coil and I got .56 when I set the voltmeter to "20".

Can you tell I don't know what I'm doing?

The vacuum control on the distributor is connected by tubing to the front of the carburetor...the oil pressure gauge connects by tubing to the fitting on the passenger side rear of the engine between the oil filter and distributor. This will not affect starting, but if hooked up wrong can make a mess.

I don't know what that .56 reading means...maybe 5.6v...you did check it at the wire from the firewall to the coil?

If that battery is charged it will start the car (the original in 1953 probably had half the power)

Willie

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Okay, so I hooked up the oil pressure gauge and vacuum control correctly! Thanks Willie!

Now I hooked up an aftermarket ballast resistor but it started smoking. I unhooked it and checked the voltage at those wires and got the same readings at the coil. And I was actually wrong, the reading at both locations fluctuates around .03 - .05 when set at 20 on the voltmeter. I check the voltage on the generator and it starts at .87 and starts declining. Any advice? Gonna flip though the manual now...

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Holy cow! I've got action! Still couldn't get it to start, but it's trying. I was fooling with the wiring under the dash because it was bugging me that the instrument and map lights wouldn't come on when the headlights and dome light would. Well I found the fuse holder pigtail for the radio ( and I promise I didn't do this), but it was connected to the middle terminal of the circuit breaker on the light switch. I removed it and was just fooling around to check the lights and dang thing tried to start! Scared the fool out of me. So I've put some fresh gas in the tank and gonna try again after I pick my girl up from work.

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Guest shadetree77

I'm glad to hear you got it to turn over but you might want to make sure you have a good fire extinguisher close by! That wiring can cause a fire in no time! Keep us updated.

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Holy cow! I've got action!

Hi Will

Glad to hear that you are making progress with the Buick. Sadly it sounds as though the dashboard wiring is in a mess. There is no easy fix for this. You will need to go through everything systematically, checking connections and cleaning terminals as you go. It is so important for safety and reliability, so worth it in the end.

Do keep us updated!

Adam..

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Right on, yeah I got the fire extinguisher handy.

Still nothing. It's trying but not going for it. What little I know - it doesn't seem its getting fuel. The wiring harness is new and I've double checked the connections to the diagrams in the manual and the instructions from Y and Z's. Could someone take a look at these photos and see if there's something obvious? (besides the air cleaner on the carb) On a related note, could someone tell me if I'm missing something on the throttle linkage? It's kind of loose and wobbly. When I attach the return spring from the equalizer shaft to the bracket on the engine, the hold thing leans out and scratches the left bank valve cover. Is there something that attaches on the other side of the shaft that helps stabilize it? I had noticed that the fuel bowl had no fuel in it, so I filled it up manually, but still won't start. Should I try spraying starter fluid in the carb?

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Pictures are pretty small but apparently there are some differences I wasn't aware of between the 53 and 54 engines.

So you've got fire to the plugs but no gas to the carb, is that right. Have you tried pouring just a swig of gas into the carb then turning it over. (Being careful to move the gas container a safe distance from the carb before doing so of course)

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What is that on top of the oil fill tube? It does not look like a regular cap. It kinda looks like a plug that might have been installed after the rebuild. Have you verified the oil level before cranking the engine?

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What kinda beer ya usin?

I like the motor oil mostly: Guinness, Boddingtons, Duck Rabbit, but I rarely turn away a gold old fashioned Pabst Blue Ribbon!

Sorry for the picture quality. iPad is great, but it's camera leaves a lot to be desired. I've attached some slightly better photos. The oil filler is covered with duct tape, I never had the original cap my guy that rebuilt the engine said to cover it until I find a replacement to keep nefarious particles out.

Gonna check the oil level and try the smidge of gas in the carb trick. Be right back!

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Guess those photos weren't much better. Anyways, so I checked the oil level and we were off about a quart and a half. So replenished that. Poured a swig of gas in the carb and tried again. I got some, what I would call, compression "pops" (not backfire though) and the rotation sounded a little faster like it was about to pick up for a second, but then would go back to a slow "chugga chugga chugga" but still no go. Id like to say this is still pretty exciting for me and I thank everyone for your help! Almost there, I can feel it. It's 53 degrees here - might be interfering as well?

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Sounds like the timing is off it's mark, or the points are not opening. Also I noticed you don't have the choke stove hooked up. and if you are going to dump raw gas down the carb you probably need to prop the choke butterfly open to get some air in there.

Of course I would recommend you reverify the linkage situation. If it leans with the spring on there then it's probably ready to fall off the carb.

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I have been following this post. Here is what I would do if you just want to get the engine running so you can make that great "Hey it's the first start" youtube video.

From scratch some givens:

You need a power source ( A battery 12 volt), A hot wire to the starter solenoid, Another hot wire from the starter to the distributor/coil. The starter solenoid needs to be temporarily engaged so it can be turn the starter armature. The distributor/coil needs to be hot so it can provide juice to the points which in turn can send a current to the coil to be kicked up to around 20,000 volts, which in turn can channel the current to to the distributor cap and be rationed by the rotor to the plug wire leads and on to the plugs.

If you are doing this by hand without the use of the ignition switch and just by-passing it for now, you have to set yourself up so the hot solenoid wire can be safely engaged against the hot wire leading up to the distributor/coil arrangement. This will spin the starter while also providing current to the distributor/coil. Note: On a functioning engine the motor will start but the hot wire to the solenoid will have to be disconnected or the starter will continue to engage along with the running motor.

The coil: Take you coil to a electrical machine shop and have them confirm your coil is putting out properly. Just because it is new and out of the package means nothing these days.

The Carburetor: You need fuel in the carb bowl as well as the filter you mentioned. But if you just want it to pop over and run for a few seconds just to see if it can then take that squirt bottle mentioned below with an attached small tube hose and feed it into the carb with the choke baffle plate held wide open. Another way, You can also fill the bowl via the cap hole inspection port on the side of most carbs or Another way, down the bowl plunger. However a truly diagnostic and A fore sure way is to just eat it and open up the top of the carb and set it aside and fill the bowl with fuel. Then take the carb accelerator linkage while holding the choke vanes open and then just start moving the accelerator linkage back and forth to confirm that the accelerator pump/plunger is indeed squirting fuel into the venturi bores against the throttle plates. This will confirm the carb is atomizing the fuel from the bowl. Then put the top back onto the carb.

OK - You are in a position to get things going:

So now ....

1st: Take the number one spark plug out and make sure the piston is at Top Dead Center. Front passengers side cylinder. Also check the timing mark on the crank shaft to make sure the timing notches are lined up properly when number one is in proper position to make sure you are on the fire stoke and not the exhaust stroke of the 4 cycles. The manual goes through this in detail.

2nd: Make sure all the spark plug wires are connected in the proper firing order and trace them to their plugs to make sure. Also take your voltage tester and select the "continuity" position and trace each wire to make sure the current is going down each one.

3rd: Open up the distributor cap and make sure that when you have the key in ON position, or if doing the hot wire approach as explained above, the points have current to them by using a simple minded $ 2 light / wire gauge when you manually open/close the points. This simple tool light will go on and off as you do so.

4th: So here we are: The carb is primed as explained above. The timing is correct.

We have hot wires available. The points and wires are working. The coil is working.

5th: Now go ahead and let her rip and see what happens.

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So I had a buddy of mine come over who knows more than me about cars. We started doing some trouble shooting and definitely have spark but definitely no fuel going to the carb. The problem seems to be the fuel pump that I rebuilt years ago. I removed it from the engine but kept the intake line from the tank connected. I manually moved the rocker arm up and down to see if it would spit some fuel out of the outtake. Nothing at all. Dry as a bone. I'm sure I did something wrong back then so I'm going to re-rebuild it today. I've got a couple of questions regarding these pumps. The manual says the fuel and vacuum sides are completely independent from each other, so I assume I don't have to have the connection to the wiper motor connected in order for it to still pump fuel, correct. However I noticed one of the other outs on the vacuum side runs to the intake manifold which to have connected. Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is this for? I'd honestly like to just get an aftermarket single action pump and then convert the wipers to electric. Also, is there a way to test the fuel pump for operability while it is not installed? I'm thinking of hooking a spare line/hose to the intake to a jar of PB or fuel and a hose on the outtake to an empty jar then manually move the rocker arm. I have an old spare off my parts car that I'd like to test.

Edited by WillBilly53 (see edit history)
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Will

Your fuel pump may be ok. Sometimes it takes a long time to pump fuel if the system is dry. Try it again with at least 10 gallons of gas in the tank. Pour a small amount of gas into the carb repeatedly to keep it running and it should soon pump and run.

The vacuum part of the pump is to assist manifold vacuum so that the wipers don't slow down of stop when accelerating (manifold vacuum drops).

Willie

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Will

Old-Tank is correct. You can, of course, test your pump in the vice as you suggest, by pushing a hose on each side and working it by hand.

If you think you rebuilt it wrongly, it won`t take long to whip it apart to check. A classic error is to install the one-way valves the wrong way around.

You are correct that the vacumn and pump sections of the unit are entirely separate. The vac side need only be connected to facilitate the wipers, however. if you try to run the engine without the manifold connection you will be drawing excess air through the hole, so blank it or reconnect the pump.

Adam..

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Will, Im so sorry I haven't been able to be of more help thus far. Hopefully the warden will let me off yard duty this weekend and I can bring a known good fuel pump and my little oil can/gas pump over and see if we can get Naomi running. You do have a fire extinguisher right.

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So I re-rebuilt the pump. Everything was correct, valves and such, but this time I maintained pressure on the rock arm while installing the fuel diaphragm and cover (which I don't think I did years ago). I now can hear suction when I move the arm manually. So I reinstalled it yesterday and man does it keep trying. For a second it things were spinning faster and I could here the pistons firing in succession and I thought it was a go but then went back to chugga chugga. The fuel bowl before the carb is still dry as a bone. The 2 barrel stromberg carb that I rebuilt around the same time as the fuel pump seems kind of janky, so I'm going to remove it as well and re-rebuild it, lol. the throttle linkage as stated before is goofy and not working with the carb and seems to be missing a crucial piece that I don't remember or see in any of my boxes. When I turn the key to "on" it immediately tries to start until I either depress the vacuum switch on the carb or turn the key to "off". This makes sense, right? - since my accelerator/throttle linkage is non-functioning at the moment?

One concern - I was trying last night and a couple of times it would chugga chugga for a bit but then I would just hear spinning, but the crankshaft, fan blade and generator would not be moving. This scared the hell out of me and I'd shut it off immediately. I'm not in the middle of ruining this "brand new" engine, am I?

No worries Lamar, I'll be around this weekend. I work Thursday and Friday night at the bar, but I'll be working on Naomi Saturday and Sunday.

Edited by WillBilly53 (see edit history)
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If you're taking the carb off, now is the perfect time to install a glass fuel filter.

It won't be original, but it sure does help diagnostics!

You can either use a cheap inline filter from the parts store, or "hide" the non-originality by going with a reproduction glass bowl-style filter from a Tri-5 Chevy.

If you're getting spark to the plugs, everything under the cap is working as it should.

If you look down into the carb and go all the way forward with the throttle linkage, you should see gas squirt out of the jets. If there is no squirt, there's no fuel in the carb. (which it sounds like you've diagnosed to this point).

If the pump is dry, it takes a bunch of effort (engine spinning) for the pump to prime and start moving fuel. Getting the engine running will help create vacuum that will assist the pump in drawing the fuel from the tank, through the dry lines, into the pump and through to the carb. (I've actually driven a couple hundred miles with no fuel pump by keeping the RPM high enough to draw fuel).

After that, verify that you have the timing right--number 1 cylinder is at Top Dead Center on the Compression Stroke when the rotor is pointed at the Number 1 wire on the cap.

It sounds simplistic, but an old guy told me this once: If an engine has compression, timing, ignition and fuel, it can't HELP but run.

If it's not running, it's one of those four things.

Go down the list and check them off.

-Brad

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Will

Taking last things first, the starter motor was spinning but not engaged in the flywheel. That is nothing to worry about. Probably caused by the battery becoming discharged through cranking.

It sounds as though you are making progress with the pump. Have you tried cranking the engine with the fuel hose to the carb disconnected to prove that you have petrol to that point?

It sounds as though you would be right to check the carb. The linkage is clearly wrong if the starter engages when you turn on the ignition. That should require you to push the thottle linkage all the way to full travel, past the accelerator pump action. The only thing I can see from the photos is that the return spring is missing.

Have you verified the condition of the contact breaker points and the ignition timing? I can see that a new coil has been fitted.

Adam..

Edited by Alfa (see edit history)
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Awesome, thanks for everybody's encouragement and advice. I got a little over 10 gallons in the tank per Old Tank. I'm still not confident the pump is working, but it may be my impatience. :)

Thanks Brad for the fuel filter tip. There's an old glass bowl in line just before the carb, similar to the one from a Chevy like you suggested. It still isn't getting any fuel.

And thanks Alfa for the reassurance on the spinning noise. I've got a pertronix electronic ignition and that's the flamethrower coil mounted that you see in the photos. I couldn't find the original, it may be with my parts car back in north Carolina.

I'm going to reassess the carb to ought and double check the timing while I'm at it and give her another go tonight. I'll keep y'all updated of course. Thanks agin for everybody's help.

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Thanks Brad for the fuel filter tip. There's an old glass bowl in line just before the carb, similar to the one from a Chevy like you suggested. It still isn't getting any fuel.

Best go back and check that pump....

How about the fuel feed line, I forget if you mentioned if it is new or not....maybe a blockage or even a pin hole in the suction line/fittings?

Maybe try bypassing the tank altogether and run the suction into a portable can of gas.

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I am gonna agree at this point with stealthbob! If you have no fuel, with as much cranking that it sounds you have done, might be a rusted through gas line to the tank, or better on top of the tank where it goes in. Just as easy to pull off the line from the tank and put a "temporary" line to a gas can with a hose away from under the car. I would also think that if you are pouring gas into the carb, you should be getting more than a sputter. Check the timing if still won't run when you have fuel past the pump. Matt

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