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Ornament Identification


sandtrooper
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Isotta-Fraschini. Are you the one who has it listed on eBay? I'm not convinced its authentic. It's certainly not Packard, as it's currently listed. Duesenberg also had something similar.

Isotta

http://www.americanarrowcorp.com/html/product_details.php?nav_id=4&cat_id=1&product_id=225&

Duesenberg

http://www.americanarrowcorp.com/html/product_details.php?nav_id=4&cat_id=1&product_id=198&

Edited by West Peterson (see edit history)
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Gut feeling, based on some of the other orenaments the eBay lister has. Plus, the patina does not look like that of what an original should look like. It doesn't look like it's made of the right kind of metal. I don't know exactly what the original metal was for the Isotta piece, which is why I say "I'm not convinced." I've seen a lot of original hood ornaments of the period, and I've never seen an original "age" like that. I believe, also, that if the person who listed it on eBay would have seen the proper signature on it, they would have said that on the listing. No such mention.

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yes Mr. SuperModerator, I am the one listing on ebay. I joined up with your outfit here to talk about car stuff with experts as I am obviously not. I would be asking if its okay to be here and ask some questions. And if this is the right department. I did not want to cause any trouble and I know that sometimes you gotta pay for intel. I guess I'll be consigning a group of car stuff and its probably no secret that when someone is asking questions about something for sale it is a form of salesmanship or promotion....Funny thing is I had the Isotta-Fraschini connection thing in my notes from research a while back and I forgot/lost it. I listed it as a Packard in haste. Maybe haste is not a good word, but you might be surprised how much work is involved getting a batch of things on auction on a particular day in a time slot pre-determined.

SM..."Gut feeling, based on some of the other orenaments the eBay lister has"

I don't know how to take that one. I guess I'm offering everything the collector assembled, the good the bad and the ugly. I am gonna have to be careful not to reckless with my guessing. I try to show alot of pictures so buyers can make their own assessments and I have already made 2 really bad IDs in 2 weeks (maybe more in your own opinion). But I also have the 'gut feel' thing often. Especially when there is no makers marks at all on any piece. (there's a subject for another hourly discussion) And then how does one accurately assess a history of customization, repair and restoration. A guy could smashed his car up in the first week he owned it back in 1920 or whatever. In the old days a body shop could fix anything including a broken mascot and I don't think they had 'Bondo' either.

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Once I unpack a few more boxes I'll uncover my books on Mascots but for now, I think West has made an accurate call on this one. I realize you are just a seller and may not know that the guy who purchased these may have made a few mistakes over the years - gads, we all do some of that and I've got stuff in my collections that I never should have paid real money for - but have other things given by great friends that I treasure regardless. In the end, somebody might end up selling my stuff and that does include the good, bad, and ugly. Mascots are tricky with lots of repros around. One guy them buy the dozens on ebay and carefully words his ads to reflect they are "in the style of..." so I guess that means they are "made to look like..." and they all start at $49. Suspect they are made somewhere overseas as simple castings with minimal finishing on them. They lack the fine detail of originals and are pretty easy to spot despite the vague descriptions. Still, he sells a lot to some pretty happy people who are no doubt glad to fill an empty space on the shelf until something better (or real) comes along. They look good from a distance and if you don't want to invest mega-bucks for the real thing they serve a purpose and meet a demand.

I like your ads by the way - lots of pics to evaluate, and thank goodness you've avoided the usual stuff like "rare" and "guaranteed old" that we so often see. Good luck with your sales and I look forward to seeing some of the other things from this collection. You've got some interesting things.

Terry

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Santrooper

I meant no offense. You are welcome to place your questions here. This is a free forum. I thought that by saying "gut feeling," that pretty much said I was guessing. Like Terry Bond, I've bought some things that I initially thought were real, only to find out they were poor reproductions. I also agree with Terry in that your listings are very well presented. I never once thought you were trying to tell potential buyers that the item was something it was not. I respect you for letting the buyer make his own decision by posting a lot of great photos.

Good luck, and welcome to the AACA Forum.

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No offense taken. In fact I am proud that you and Mr Bond as well as any other answered at all. Your comments are honest and straight down the middle and can only be appreciated. The collector collected everything from actual antique cars up to and including keychains from the late 1990s.

Your comments were spot on and I was a little tentative with my answer perhaps because I am new to the venue and was not sure about what was allowed and where and things like dues etc. And also I am not really sure how I am being perceived by the many auto people. I do not want to be the guy who just wants 'free information' for my own benefit. I have about 40 questions stacked up in wait so we'll see. Thanks

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Almost forgot to ask if there were any old spark plugs among the goodies - it's one of the collections that I've collected longest - appreciate it - have a great Christmas and new year!

Terry

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Guest Jim_Edwards
No offense taken. In fact I am proud that you and Mr Bond as well as any other answered at all. Your comments are honest and straight down the middle and can only be appreciated. The collector collected everything from actual antique cars up to and including keychains from the late 1990s.

Your comments were spot on and I was a little tentative with my answer perhaps because I am new to the venue and was not sure about what was allowed and where and things like dues etc. And also I am not really sure how I am being perceived by the many auto people. I do not want to be the guy who just wants 'free information' for my own benefit. I have about 40 questions stacked up in wait so we'll see. Thanks

"Free information" is what forums like this are all about. The place to go when you need an answer to questions about vintage automobiles and how to keep the old turkeys running and looking good, or to simply ask "what the heck is this" when you discover some long lost and forgotten treasure when finally getting around to cleaning out the corners of the garage.

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Looking at the second last photo of the original eBay listing for this mascot, I think it actually is signed, just a bit hard to see. I've used the original photo and highlighted it a bit (I'm hoping Sandtrooper doesn't mind). The letters F, A, I & N are quite clear, part of the Z is, but the B isn't. The name F.Bazin would tie in with this Isotta Fraschini mascot. I also think there may be some numbers in the green box, but they are a bit hard to pick.

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=17426&weiid=5259583⟨=En

post-69884-143138770908_thumb.jpg

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Guest Foggy norm

To pass some time, I enjoy looking at the ornaments. Like other's, I was excited to see some unique item's show up. Getting over my initial excitement, thing's didn't look right on a few I was familiar with, along with more fitting the same description. Now, when I see a vintage ornament made of brass/bronze I scrutinize it, especially if it's suggested it has remnant's of nickel plating. As Terry suggested, the detail's are crude and it becomes obvious of their intent. Tho the original casting's could be original mascot's, the image of a south american foundry pouring these out, and dipping them in our melted nickel's doesn't humor me. If you spot one, other's become obvious.

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Craig G is a great inverstigator with above ordianry perception. The 'tool marks' around the base actually hide a 'F - BAZIN -' but I cannot really see the numbers on the upper area to the right that were indicated.

It should be noted also that the impressed name is not in hammered text with single tool characters like the example at the website link... but are more like informal type hammered using the same one-stroke tool ...ie 3 to 4 hits for a 'F' , 1 or 2 hits for an 'I' , 3 hits for a 'Z' etc.

So conclusion could be that the makers mark (signature) is an early prototype from BAZIN works, ....or a credit from an aftermarket or restock run foundry, or a deliberate counterfeit moniker on a knock-off.

FURTHER COMMENT: I had the pleasure of being consignee on a nice collection of carstuff about 4 years ago. I appraised the emblems while they were still on mounting boards. After getting the go-ahead to dismantle the boards and sell them, I was at first shocked to find that almost 1/4 of the emblems (50 pcs) were Harry Pulfer re-dos from the 60s. (Evidently they were done in Hong Kong with tight quality control). They were advertised and titled as 'Reproductions' and stressed as so. In general, they sold for very good prices.

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  • 7 months later...
Guest PhilMorris

All I can say is just one look and I would not buy it, that says it all as to authenticity. I don't like the fake aura it gives off !!~

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