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My guess would be something other than the lining material.

 

The "top gear cone slides on splines." I'd suspect something wrong with the mechanism is causing the cone to not slide along the splines and engage as it should.

 

 

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Thanks for the info on how top gear engages/operates Oldcar.  Unfortunately until you get your hands on the gearbox and dismantle it the problem I don't think can be really identified.  Hope it is a simple fix which you can identify and put right without spending more money..  I feel you pain in respect to the amount of money you have spent on the gearbox as there is nothing worse than spending buckets of money and still the problem is not fixed. Hang in there.

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On 8/22/2019 at 11:54 PM, oldcar said:

210131826_ENVTopGear.thumb.jpeg.5eba12fd06d660e7a17dcae772cabe88.jpeg

 

The taper of that cone is very small, meaning the cone is very close to a regular cylinder shape. So you are correct that if too much lining was machined off it would just bottom out before engaging.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Re: The extremely expensive repairs done to my gearbox by one of the self proclaimed "specialists" in Europe, All I can say is.

The damage is done and all I can do is to move on.  I just hope that other enthusiasts can learn from my mistakes!

 

Bernie j.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Did Fourth gear ever work at all with this "new" transmission? When you first installed it was there any engagement of fourth gear, at least initially when you first tried it?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Hello Mike

Unfortunately for me,  the gearbox would "select" Top gear but failed to "drive"in it. To my limited knowledge ( I rebuilt my first Lagonda Rapier in 1978 or there abouts) the Top-gear (cone clutch) will only fail to drive when it's friction linings are totally worn out or as I suspect, in this case the operator fitting the new lining has machined far too much material away on the "female" half of the cone. to the extent that the male "half" was not making sufficient, if any, contact. This to the extent that while driving down a reasonably steep incline that the car would not maintain speed  with top gear engaged and the motor running at about 4,000 rpm.  Much the same as a slipping clutch except the "clutch" is the coupling inside the gearbox, Top Gear being in effect Direct Drive.  While perhaps overly complicated for the average owner/driver it is not "Rocket Science". The transmission in a "T" model Ford is not all that different!

 

The ENV Preselector is designed to self adjust to compensate for normal wear. There is not really room here to fully describe the operation of the gear "selection" mechanism. The actual mechanism is totally different to a conventional gearbox in that it is an epicyclic transmission.  The Lagonda Rapier uses an ENV 75 gearbox made under Wilson Patents.

Wikipedia explains them thus:- 

A preselector or self-changing[1] gearbox is a type of manual gearbox (US: transmission) used on a variety of vehicles, most commonly in the 1930s. The defining characteristic of a preselector gearbox is that the manual shift lever is used to "pre-select" the next gear to be used, then a separate control (a foot pedal) is used to engage this in one single operation, without needing to work a manual clutch.[1] Most pre-selector transmissions avoid a driver-controlled clutch entirely. Some use one solely for starting off.[2]    

Preselector gearboxes are not automatic gearboxes, although they may have internal similarities. A fully automatic gearbox is able to select the ratio used; with a preselector gearbox, gear selection remains the driver's decision.

 

There are several radically different mechanical designs of preselector gearbox. The best known is the Wilson design.[3] Some gearboxes, such as the Cotal, shift gears immediately as the control is moved, without requiring the separate pedal action. These are termed 'self-changing' gearboxes, but were considered under the same overall heading.[note 1] In recent years, a similar role is carried out by the increasing number of 'Tiptronic' or 'paddle shift' gearboxes, using manual selection and immediate automated changing.

 

There is a huge amount of information available through "Google" etc. For a great many years  the famous London Double Decker "Busses" used a form of Pre-selector Transmission. In the 1930s Englands famous ERA Racing cars all used "Wilson Preselector gearboxes.

Again during the 1930s many of Englands "Quality Car Manufacturers offered Preselector gearboxes as either an option or as standard equipment. You may have heard of some:- Daimler, Riley, Armstrong Siddley, Crossley, Triumph, ERA & MG. in many of their famous Racing Models, "K3" being probably amoung the best known of the MGs.

 

Bj.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Yes Fourth is different. First, Second and Third have the brake bands and the planetary gears. Fourth, being direct drive 1:1 such that the input and output shafts of the transmission effectively become connected, you have no need for a planetary set of gears. So I suppose it is not surprising that something other than a brake band is used for Fourth gear.

 

Peter could have tested this on his bench before shipping it off, even if just by turning the input shaft by hand.

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Oldcar is it possible to show the "Sectional view on Plate 1" referred to in the Lagonda Rapier hand book (Fourth gear described. Details of clutch action)?

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Posted (edited)

Lagonda Handbooks are tricky, the pages are often borrowed from other sources so page numbers are not always consecutive. 

Here are Illustrations Nos 8 ,  9 & 10.1469829454_ENVIllustration8.thumb.jpeg.ecb60901e878d4a1c5e6005643dd0b0d.jpeg817407403_ENVIllustration9.thumb.jpeg.cf63d9621775c3885a9085677baebfb9.jpeg375546256_ENVIllustration10.thumb.jpeg.91524b3f4c9922d064e8f792d2196556.jpeg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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By looking at Illustration "10" and comparing this with the photograph of my "Freshly Rebuilt" gearbox on the previous page it becomes apparent all is not as it should be!

 

Bj.

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This view is actually taken from the rear of the gearbox. It does show the large spring lying horizontally on the floor of the gearbox. This exerts pressure on the "bus bar" which in turn lifts the preselected "operating strut" which applies pressure on the "band" thus bringing the selected gear into action.

ENV Illustration 10 1.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

 Applying pressure on the gearchange pedal causes the Bus bar (1) to drop allowing the previously engaged operating strut to move away and the next (pre) selected strut to be lifted. The "camshaft"  in the side of the box controls the movement of the struts. The fingers projecting from the operating strut come into contact with the camshaft pushing the required strut over towards the bands and in place to be lifted by the busbar. Only one strut comes into contact with the bus bar  at any one time.

 

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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At  this point I should add that I have no formal training in automotive engineering or as a motor mechanic. I am a self taught amateur and a life long car enthusiast. I do all my own work both from a financial necessity and for my own personal enjoyment. I do not own any specialised equipment other than a box of hand tools and spanners.  As I  approach my 83rd Birthday I am inclined to think I have done enough. I will however do what ever is necessary to get the Lagonda Rapier "Back on the Road". What I do with it then is a matter of conjecture. It will not be back in Australia until "sometime in December" so I have plenty of time to think about it.

 

Bernie j.

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6 minutes ago, oldcar said:

At  this point I should add that I have no formal training in automotive engineering or as a motor mechanic. I am a self taught amateur and a life long car enthusiast. I do all my own work both from a financial necessity and for my own personal enjoyment. I do not own any specialised equipment other than a box of hand tools and spanners.  As I  approach my 83rd Birthday I am inclined to think I have done enough. I will however do what ever is necessary to get the Lagonda Rapier "Back on the Road". What I do with it then is a matter of conjecture. It will not be back in Australia until "sometime in December" so I have plenty of time to think about it.

 

Bernie j.

 

Oldcar I have no doubt that your Lagonda will be back on the road shortly after it returns home.  As for what is wrong with the gearbox it is all speculation until it is dismantled and properly examined.  But I don't think there is anything wrong with hoping that it is some internal adjustment or minor issue which you can fix.  Having read the information you have posted (several times) I feel I now have a good idea how top gear engages/operates.   One thing which I think bodes well for you is I did not see any metal fragments etc in the photo of your gearbox only clean oil.

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Posted (edited)

The only thing I can do now is to wait until it returns "home". I promise that "God Willing" I will have the gearbox out and top gear removed for "inspection/replacement" within 48 hours of its arrival in my driveway. Until then it is all conjecture.

 

Bj

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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What does old lag mean?
(British English, informal) a person who has been in prison many times. : old lag.

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Posted (edited)

Hello Mike 

While that is one definition, the other one is even easier to decipher. "Lag" is simply an abbreviation of Lagonda and more a term of endearment (for the Marque) 

In this particular case it is simply a play on words.  It is also common among some older (Long term) Lagonda Owners to have a warpted sense of humour.

We are not all "Stiff Shirted" or "Frightfully British"...... I bought my first Lagonda in the 1970s and have not been without one for more than two or there months since.

My wife of a great many years, trials and tribulations, Helen, Is, as the "Navigator" an essential part of our "Team" and the second "Old Lag".857946763_HelenKG22WinterWonderland22..thumb.jpg.c43c927a28418f2baf1d8405deb0bf37.jpg 

 

"Oh, I Say Old Chap!"  & "Jolly Hockey Sticks!" 

"What Ho!"

 

B.J.

Rapier 1100cc, Rapier 1500cc, Rapier-Amilcar (Racing Special),  Two Litre, Two Litre Supercharged, 16/80, Three Litre, 3.5 Litre, LG45, and V12.

 

 

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

One of the most difficult things is to find photograpgs of Helen,  99 times out of 100 it is she who is taking the photographs. Many of her best pictures are taken hanging out of the side of  the car,  travelling at speed or under very difficult circumstances.DSCN0165.thumb.jpg.ca6e24267b2e1b0a478f9827ec0f0ef4.jpg

 

DSCN1365.thumb.jpg.e728cb93192993afc71f434b23dc320f.jpg

 

Bj.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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Anyone looking at the last photograph of the three cars could easily be left wondering. Yes the three cars ar all "Rapiers" the middle car is the only one of its (body) type remaining!  It is one of a pair built as a"Rapier" in 1936 and fitted with a "Bertelli"  (of Aston Martin Fame") two seater sports body.

The Navy blue car is a Lagonda, I bought in England (as a basket case) in 1984 on behalf of the owner, Ted Geermans' father. After languishing for several years and after his fathers death, Ted took the car over and finished it with a two seater sports body of his own design. The third ,camera, car is of course "KG" with Helen in the passenger seat, leaning well out of the side to capture all three cars as they drove around an Alpine "hairpin" bend. Typically with both hands holding the camera.

 

Bj.

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image.png.8cc681789418e0817818264232a2c7c0.png            Unknown-1.jpeg.66c30be4e70064f6c9979a2826806226.jpeg

Going back a "couple of days", Valloire is a commune in the Savoie department in the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region in south-eastern France. The ski resort Valloire-Galibier is located in the commune, at the foot of the Col du Télégraphe and next to the ski resort of Valmeinier, France. 70% of the Valloire/Valmeinier ski area is above 2,000 m.  You are welcomed both in Summer and Winter. 

The Col du Galibier is the second highest road pass in France. During our stay in this part of France we would have crossed the Col du Galibier two or three times in both directions. The photograph of the three Rapiers shows the similarity when viewed from the front, while when viewed from the rear, as seen in the previous (hairpin bend) photograph they are entirely different. In effect there are no two Rapiers precisely the same. Every one is unique. Note; If you look carefully, the windscreen on each car is different!  In addition the mudguards (fenders) are all quite different.

The third photograph (which you have seen before) shows the road with NO saftey barriers or similar "edge markings", in some places a sheer drop down into the valley below.

 335670133_ColduGalibier2645ft_789.thumb.jpg.d30f61bf82f76431f5f7309a6c1e6901.jpg1539249550_FullColduGalibierBruce_2026.thumb.jpg.9ec339090095d98029c2febf26229eee.jpg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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I am sorry to be dragging up all this old stuff but right now there is nothing happening with my car still stuck in England and the whole GEAR BOX saga starting to give me the irrits!

Even when the car finally does arrive home I will have to start taking it apart. To make it worse I have spent a bucket full of money and have absolutely nothing to show for it. Added to that I have had three months driving around in a "Modern European SUV" that I absolutely hated. I have said else-where "The most dangerous vehicle I have ever had the misfortune to drive."

 

Bj.

 

69783

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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OK! A "couple of days" have passed and 35 people have looked in at this thread but sadly no one has anything to add or say.

It would seem as though I am boring most of you, so perhaps someone can tell me "Why do I bother?"  My Lagonda Rapier will not be returning to Australia until some time in December so I will probably have nothing more to add until then.  EVEN SO there is a chance that It may not return at all but go off to a new owner "as Is".

 

EXPRESSIONS OF INTEREST (Offers) ARE INVITED re the purchase of my 1934/5 Lagonda Rapier, Eagle (replica) Two Seater. Original UK Reg KG 5363. Highly developed 1500cc engine. Gearbox only recently fully rebuilt in Germany by Preselector Specialist Peter Meyer (Currently not working).  Old English Ivory with dark green wheels. Excellent dark green, English hide, upholstery, good hood and tonneau cover. No side screens. Some minor work required on body. i.e. a small dent in RH rear mudguard, some cracking in aluminium. 5 Excellent Michelin (Super Comfort) tyres on 17 in wheels*, three additional part worn spares. Mine since 1978 and used extensively both in Australia and on regular (five yearly) visits to UK and Europe since 1984. A small selection of useful spares including a spare ENV 75 gearbox.Car is currently still in the UK waiting shipment back to Australia.

Available in Australia early December. * N.B. 17 inch wheels are now the preferred size for all (UK) VSCC competition. Rear luggage rack quickly and easily removable. E Mail for extensive folio of photographs and detail description.

Bernie Jacobson. <twooldlags@gmail.com> +61 3 9842 5808.
 
 
DSCN6014.thumb.jpg.5cf054930892fb011063e34854dc4491.jpgDSCN6015.thumb.jpg.2e8d1a9792d6357bdd7434cd3e46ed4b.jpgDSCN6016.thumb.jpg.0cb68312b6957905f9953afa4dbf428b.jpgDSCN6018.thumb.jpg.f806f3216fc6d76248af429348998e73.jpg
 

 

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Going back to an earlier discussion regarding suitable oils for Preselector gearboxes. I had previously stated theat I have for some years now used the same oil as I used in my Lagonda's engine. Penrite HPR 30 in winter and 40 in summer. Having now discovered a 5 litre bottle hiding in my garage I can give you the relevant information.

Penrite do not use any "Friction Modifiers" in their engine oil. They do use a small percentage a "Zinc Rich" additive as protection against  "wear, corrosion,  oil oxidation and  sludge formation". This is very little different to the earlier HPR range of engine oils and in my opinion still suitable for use in my Lagonda's gearbox. 

I earnestly believe that the use of this oil in my gearbox would NOT have had any detrimental effect on the gearboxes ability to transmit drive to the rear wheels.

I will be continuing to use the same oil in both the engine and gearbox for the Lagonda once it returns to Australia and I have back in driveable condition.

The Good news is that provided there are no more hold-ups, the Lagonda should now be back in Australia (and home) by "mid November".

For anyone interested I have attached a scan of the back label from a current 5 Litre oil container.  Unfortunately for the shipping watchers, I do not have a name of a Vessel as yet.

Bj.

1772193595_PenriteBacklabel.thumb.jpeg.bea7e1feb718b865618db06b9e7ed710.jpeg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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