Rebuilt engine Engine Seized?

[Guest 64LeadSled]

I will try to keep this short and to the point.

1964 Lincoln

430 motor rebuilt

tranny rebuilt

Drove up the street to the store and parked. 15 minutes later got back in to find that it won't turn over. I had it towed homed and thought, starter. Replaced that to find it still had the same loud click that it had before like the starter engaged to hit a dead stop. we pulled that starter out and tested it with a battery and cables and it worked fine. Tried a few batteries, replaced the cylonoid on the fire wall and even tried to bypass all that by just jumping the starter under the car with another battery and it had no luck kicking over. Now i have up on blocks and tried to manually turn the crank and it seems to just want to tighten the bolt.

I am at a loss now this engine was just rebuilt completely and has about 2000 miles on it. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Edited November 12, 2011 by 64LeadSled
Forgot to state the details of the car (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Take out all the sparkplugs and notice if any liquid comes out of the holes, if so keep track of which cylinder. Try to turn it over, if it turns easily you have an internal leak causing hydrostatic lock.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Expanding a bit on Don's suggestion, if the intake manifold gaskets were not correctly installed on that 430 you may get coolant into either or both #4 cylinder or #8 cylinder. Those are the two I'd pull the plugs on first. If nothing there look at #1 and #5 cylinders. Also with that engine if the head bolts were not torqued to exact specification in exact proper order. you may have issues all over the place with coolant getting into cylinders and the oil. If you find coolant in the oil or oil globules in the radiator you need to have a real serious conversation with whomever did the rebuild.

[Guest 64LeadSled]

Thanks guys for the replies, really helped with some drilling down on what the problem might be. I checked to see if the alternator was locked up by loosening the serpentine belt, removed the plugs (all looked dry and with normal burn), removed the valve covers and checked to see if there was any rods busted or out of line, but all looked good. Oil looks like its normal with no water but even with the plugs out and no starter the engine will not turn over.

Had a thought: Engine was done professionally so feel that hopefully it was torqued properly but I did put on the original power steering pump and when it was first started it leaked and I let it drain and have been driving without power steering, would this possibly seize and stop the crank from turning over? I've removed the radiator to get to it and thought to remove it and see if the crank can turn without it. Next step will probably be to remove the oil pan and see if it's something down below.

Again appreciate the input, let me know if you have any other suggestions, will keep you all posted.

[Guest Dave Boyer]

Is it an automatic? The tranny could have locked up.

Testing the starter off the car, and finding it working, could also be a battery problem.

[Guest stude8]

Pull the power steering belt off the pump and see if it can be turned by hand. Running the power steering with out oil could certainly sieze the internal rotary parts over the time you descibe. Can't say if it would stall the engine from cranking but the belt would squeal loud slipping on the hub.

Stude8

[Guest 64LeadSled]

Is it an automatic? The tranny could have locked up.

Testing the starter off the car, and finding it working, could also be a battery problem.

So thought this may be the problem but i have the car in neutral so thought that would bypass the transmission if that was the case.

I've tried three batteries and had the yellow top tested and was at full cranking, thought it could be a bad ground so I took jumpers and direct grounded it from the battery to the engine to see if that was the case. We tried to use another battery attached to the starter directly to see if it would just turn over but got the same sound.

Transmission was rebuilt at the time of the engine from a well known transmission guy, is there a way to test this theory?

[Guest 64LeadSled]

Pull the power steering belt off the pump and see if it can be turned by hand. Running the power steering with out oil could certainly sieze the internal rotary parts over the time you descibe. Can't say if it would stall the engine from cranking but the belt would squeal loud slipping on the hub.

Stude8

Thanks Stude8, BTW we have 61 Lark as well

So I got the belts loose (not sure if I got the one from water pump to the harmonic balance pulley loose enough) and tried to turn the crank but nothing happened, the power steering pump mounts to the front of the crank so thought to remove it completely and have it rebuilt anyways being it was something that needed to be done. This is seriously mind boggling

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I would try to physically turn the crankshaft with the plugs out and in neutral get something big enough to grab the crank pulley. If that's not practical try to move the teeth on the flywheel with the starter out. If you find it's not seized you can flat tow it and drop it in gear over 20 mph. You can do that on the older automatics, not the newer ones.

[Guest namvetschrysler]

Maybe the oil pump packed it in and the Pistons have nipped up, sometimes if this happens engines will run for awhile but when stopped they seize and then will not turn over.

Sump off, disconnect bearing cap try and move piston in Bore

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Okay, looks like all the simple methods of getting that puppy to rotate have pretty much been tried and all have failed, implying a major issue with something in the crankshaft rotating assembly.

So now it's time for twenty questions so to speak. What was replaced during the rebuild beyond the main and rod bearings? Did the engine require any boring and if so how much over and what kind of machine was used. MEL blocks cannot be correctly bored on an old type boring machine without the proper wedges. Preferably the boring would have been done with a Rottler Center Bore machine or equivalent. If the pistons were replaced were they checked for proper orientation and wrist pin function? Were rings replaced and if so did anyone check to make certain they were correct for the generation of pistons used with the given year MEL block? Was the Cam pulled and Cam bearings replaced?

[60FlatTop]

I imagine some reading this thread will be planning and engine rebuild and looking for tips.

I just had a new engine and transmission installed in my '86 Park Avenue convert.

We had low oil pressure on the first start (8 PSI) and tracked it down to an incorrect timing cover gasket. We now run just under 50 PSI.

Since all the components of the engine have been "tampered" with We installed a gauge set in the engine compartment. It has oil, water temp, and volts. I plan to check it frequently when the car goes into service. I may or may not leave them there.

I also have a water temperature gauge under the hood of my '64 Riviera.

I don't like the look of gauges under the dash and I open the hoods often enough to make this application practical.

Any refresh rebuild should have gauges installed for early checks.

Bernie

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

I imagine some reading this thread will be planning and engine rebuild and looking for tips.

I just had a new engine and transmission installed in my '86 Park Avenue convert.

We had low oil pressure on the first start (8 PSI) and tracked it down to an incorrect timing cover gasket. We now run just under 50 PSI.

Since all the components of the engine have been "tampered" with We installed a gauge set in the engine compartment. It has oil, water temp, and volts. I plan to check it frequently when the car goes into service. I may or may not leave them there.

I also have a water temperature gauge under the hood of my '64 Riviera.

I don't like the look of gauges under the dash and I open the hoods often enough to make this application practical.

Any refresh rebuild should have gauges installed for early checks.

Bernie

Gauges under the hood, interesting idea and it keeps em out of sight from passengers & curious onlookers while parked. I'll have to remember that one.. I'm always checking under the hood on my cars.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Gauges under the hood, interesting idea and it keeps em out of sight from passengers & curious onlookers while parked. I'll have to remember that one.. I'm always checking under the hood on my cars.

Especially at 70 mph., right.

[60FlatTop]

The Electra hood pivots forward so it will be hard to get open at speed.

I think a properly maintained cooling, electrical, or lubrication system is more reliable than a single monitoring gauge. Especially on older cars where the gauge may have a capillary tube or geared clockwork mechanisms; the old start the car and tap the gauge type. And I do not eliminate the factory gauge. I Tee off so it keeps its idiot gauge value.

So my purpose is to enhance the monitoring while I make a weekly visit under the hood. I am looking for subtle changes or just reassurance they things are OK.

In the 1990's I serviced a 1942 Caddy for a while. The owner said the temperature gauge had not worked since 1964. He had an old stock one that had been in the glove box for years. He was very concerned about that gauge and wanted it installed. After installing it turned out to be broken as well.

However, every hose on the car was checked and rotted. I replaced all including the heater hoses. I replaced the radiator cap. We checked the system and put new anti-freeze in it. The fan belt was nearly in threads. When finished I had confidence in the cooling system, much more than in the gauge.

I remember that he told me the car leaked gas when he filled it. The gas fill hose had no rubber on it. Only the cloth was left.

I prefer to check the supplemental gauges at home with the hood open.

As I wrote, I may take them off when I am confidence the newly rebuilt engine is OK. It was professionally rebuilt, like the Lincoln mentioned. In 50 years in the hobby I have learned that the more professional the service the more suspect I should be of the outcome.

Bernie

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Well Bernie unless that '86 has dash gauges and not idiot lights for oil pressure and coolant temp, you are connecting gauges into circuits that will not be providing gauges with the proper input and therefor what you would be seeing on gauges, if anything, wouldn't mean diddly.

Given many models of various makes in a given year were produced both with and without gauges your suggestion to anyone not aware different sensors are used for gauges and idiot lights the suggestion is not only going to waste their time and money but could also compromise the wiring from the sensors to the point sooner or later nothing on the dash would work. Candidly your suggestion is worse than very poor!

[NTX5467]

Actually, the correct nomenclature (in GM parts) for what "runs" gauges and warning lights is different. Gauges have "sensors", which supply a variable signal to the gauge. Warning lights have "switches", either off (no light) or on (light activated). These would not apply to the "Gen" or "Alt" lights which illuminate when voltage flows the wrong way (discharge) in the generating system circuit. A "sending unit" could be either.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

In 50 years in the hobby I have learned that the more professional the service the more suspect I should be of the outcome.

Bernie

I concur, the term "professionally rebuilt" has come to be greatly mis-used in the car hobby. At worst, it just means that the owner didn't do it, who would be blameless should a failure occur.

Another observation is that as it was "professionally done", the owner probably paid a little too much to get it done. Higher prices = better work? Many times, but NOT always.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

In 50 years in the hobby I have learned that the more professional the service the more suspect I should be of the outcome.

Bernie

I concur, the term "professionally rebuilt" has come to be greatly mis-used in the car hobby. At worst, it just means that the owner didn't do it, who would be blameless should a failure occur.

Another observation is that as it was "professionally done", the owner probably paid a little too much to get it done. Higher prices = better work? Many times this is accurate, but NOT always. An observed issue is that it just depends upon whom you get recommendations from as some "professionals" turn out not to be, just perceived to be, or broker the work to someone else.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Looks like this thread has been sufficiently high jacked as to be of no additional value to the original poster who apparently may have a problem too serious for a simple correction to be found among the users. There are no simple solutions for an engine that cannot be rotated with a socket on the crankshaft pulley bolt and a long breaker bar or cheater bar over a socket wrench. Even if rotation eventually is made possible the engine should be pulled and the cause of the seizure properly identified in order to prevent more damage.

[Guest namvetschrysler]

Agree 100%

[J3Studio]

Looks like this thread has been sufficiently high jacked as to be of no additional value to the original poster who apparently may have a problem too serious for a simple correction to be found among the users.

A pity - I was hoping to at least find out what the issue is.

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

The very next post after the initial one, should have been..."TAKE IT BACK TO THE PERSON THAT DID THE REBUILD AND LET THEM SORT IT OUT"....I have rebuilt engines for people, and would not cover anything, if they decided on their own to solve a problem that should have been taken care of by me......

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

A pity - I was hoping to at least find out what the issue is.

Being a lot more than just familiar with the MEL block series of engines I can say that unless a re-builder was very familiar with them they provide for many opportunities to screw one up. I'll even go so far as to say if one has never re-built one of them or the very similar Chevy 409 there is more than a 50/50 chance some aspect will be screwed up. There is no such thing as a quickie re-build with that series of engines, most particularly those manufactured before 1966 and not of 462 c.i. displacement.

[Joe Block]

Did gap the ends of rings correctly?

[Guest prs519]

Although it would get one no nearer to the solution, even if successful, I would go back and re-suggest that if the starter is removed, more torque can be applied by a lever to the flywheel than one might apply to the big HB bolt or nut, especially in the loosen direction. I think that if one were able to turn the engine backwards, particularly, success would point to broken pieces somewhere. Especially if it subsequently remains loose. It sounds like some of these guys truly have experience with these engines, so my unexperienced should not be top-rated. Also, a spun bearing will often come temporarily loose by turning an engine over backwards, leastwise this is so with smaller engines.

Edited November 14, 2011 by prs519
spelling (see edit history)

[Guest 64LeadSled]

I think while having this car apart (again) I might actually do the same..

Gauges under the hood, interesting idea and it keeps em out of sight from passengers & curious onlookers while parked. I'll have to remember that one.. I'm always checking under the hood on my cars.