carbking Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Here is the link:NewsJon. Edited November 10, 2011 by carbking (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Yep. Bought a brand new chainsaw this past weekend - owners manual states "Ethanol based fuel is unacceptable" Edited November 10, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Good to know, thanks Jon. I had been watching E15 being talked up and was very uncomfortable with the idea. Full disclosure though, I have been using E10 in old cars since the 1980s and have still not had any rubber failure that I know of. Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutlasguy Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I've had enough! I went through the "oxygenated gasoline" farce where my gas mileage was virtually cut in half before they found that it caused Cancer and scrapped it! Our Rock Headed Governor even wanted the Feds to cut off our highway funds if we didn't switch over! Now they want to ruin our engines by increasing the Ethanol by as much as 50% in our gasoline, just to subsidize the farmers who plant corn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I recall reading in some owners manuals of cars built in the 70s that it was noted not to use any alcohol based fuels in them or face the chance of risking serious damage to the engine and/or emission controls. Plus using such fuels would void any warranty. I could only imagine the havoc this fool fuel could be doing to today's modern engines. As you know these engines have many sensors that are always checking various components involved in combustion in order to calculate proper burn by adjusting air/fuel ratios constantly depending on driving demands. E-based fuels have a different burn characteristic than the alcohol free fuel and is one of the reasons for noticeably reduced economy and power output. I would only think vehicles specifically designed to run various fuels such as flex-fuel vehicles, are the only ones that can probably use E-based fuel safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yep. Bought a brand new chainsaw this past weekend - owners manual states "Ethanol based fuel is unacceptable" I have a weed eater with a rotted gas tank. The stuff is pure crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Yep. Bought a brand new chainsaw this past weekend - owners manual states "Ethanol based fuel is unacceptable" E10 and even E15 are not "ethanol based" fuels. E85 is, as is any fuel with more than 50% ethanol.If E10 were not allowed in any gasoline device, that device would be unusable and (hopefully) not sold in more than 1/2 the United States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I recall reading in some owners manuals of cars built in the 70s that it was noted not to use any alcohol based fuels in them or face the chance of risking serious damage to the engine and/or emission controls. Plus using such fuels would void any warranty. What you're probably recalling is the sudden problems found with methanol-based dry-gas products in some emissions controlled carburetors. It was a major controversy at the time as methanol was cheaper than isopropyl alcohol, the other common material used, and was more commonly found at the time. Methanol was frequently banned from use by manufacturers in the 1970s for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) If you ever see one of these signs on a gas pump, read it. They were mandated by the Federal government (those guys who are assumed to not know what they're doing) almost 6 months ago for all E15 pumps, if and when they begin to appear in your area:Note especially the very last line.I find it very interesting that the results of this study are being released 5 months after Federal law already prohibits the very thing being studied, as if it's somehow breaking new ground. Politics is very subliminal sometimes. "'New' ethanol information" indeed! Edited November 11, 2011 by Dave@Moon added last paragraph (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 It would have been nice to know the maker and specific series of the engines involved; and most certainly the specific nature of the damage observed. My own usage of E-10 fuel reveals that amount of fuel (gasoline) consumed increases by roughly 10% for same miles traveled verses non-ethanol diluted fuels. The power and performance loss is noticeable. Confirming that Ethanol fuels deliver less energy potential to any engine, even if designed to be Ethanol tolerant. Any and every age vehicle suffers from this this type of loss of efficiency regardless of the percentage of ethanol contained in the fuel.Ethanol is a huge failure period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 So Dave M., what exactly is the upside to Ethanol, from your perspective? BTW - will re-read my manual, I am not sure if "Ethanol based" is my wording or straight from the manual - could simply be "fuels containing Ethanol" - since there is such a difference, to be precise I will check it out and pass it along. My suspicion is the manufacturer is doing a CYA move to protect itself against this junk, but if I am wrong I will pass that on as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 So Dave M., what exactly is the upside to Ethanol, from your perspective? If people pretend that Climate Change is a fraud as well (commonly the case here), nothing. There's just no point of discussing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 It would have been nice to know the maker and specific series of the engines involved; and most certainly the specific nature of the damage observed. This is all they ( News ) wanted you to know:Both Volvo Penta and Mercury Marine provided test engines as well as the testing facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lichtfel Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 The thing that gets me is that the automobile is blamed for the pollution and fuel consumption and nothing is said about the commercial airlines. In every daylight hour there are 22,000 commercial jets flying at 35,000 feet sprewing a kerosene exhaust into our atmosphere and no one seems concerned just blame pollution on the car!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stock_steve Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 ...Climate Change...Good to see that at least the new acceptable nomenclature is being used (now that "Global Warming" has been trashed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 That's because aircraft is considered mass transit. There are people (who have unfortunately weaseled their way into positions of influence) who cannot stand the idea that someone travels in their own private vehicle.So if I find myself in position of having no other choice to but to purchase this E15 garbage for my vehicles because I am out of fuel and there is no other option, I am technically breaking federal law. Is that what you're telling us, Moon?As usual the guvmink who knows best has mistakenly assumed there are no pre-2002 vehicles left on the highways, or power equipment engines that were not designed for ethanol fuels. Or that could be by design, in their unceasing effort to get older cars into crushers.I was in agriculture myself long enough to realise that this whole ethanol farce is not about weaning us off fossil fuels or reducing climate change. It is about subsidising corn farms and Big Agriculture. Period. In the meantime we're paying subsidies on a product that is inefficient in both production and use and is generating the unintended consequence of increasing food prices. A lot of foodstuff is made from these cereal grains that are being diverted to ethanol production, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 If I am not mistaken, E-85 and E-15 are the same thing. Both show the % of ethanol added per gallon. I have an E-85 friendly Tahoe and will never put a gallon of that stuff in there again. E-10 which is standard in my area is bad enough, but the mileage and power dropped of considerably when I tried it. The Gov't screwed up the diesel industry so bad, why don't they add it to truck engines if it is so great? Diesel fuel is the cheapest to refine yet the most expensive to use. Instead of scrutinizing the banking and mortgage industry, they should focus on the oil industry. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Well, the climate sure changed here in CT for sure - we had a foot of snow on 10-29!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28 Chrysler Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 My wife's 1965 Mustang 6 cylinder's carburetor is spilling fuel from every gasket and the accelerator pump is non functional. I had changed the fuel pump in the spring. I thought the fuel pump was just old and started to leak.The fuel was tested and came in at almost 12% ethanol.I am wondering if running the fuel system dry would slow down the deterioration when a car sits for any extended period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 My wife's 1965 Mustang 6 cylinder's carburetor is spilling fuel from every gasket and the accelerator pump is non functional. I had changed the fuel pump in the spring. I thought the fuel pump was just old and started to leak.The fuel was tested and came in at almost 12% ethanol.I am wondering if running the fuel system dry would slow down the deterioration when a car sits for any extended period.I would expect the woes with that Mustang may be more related to the injector cleaners in today's gasoline. Someone needs to do a study on the affects of those cleaners on the fuel systems found with older normally aspirated engines. I am of the firm belief those injector cleaners are slowly destroying the bodies of carburetors by leaching metal from the castings internal orifices and are most certainly eating the heck out of old gaskets and O-Rings. The problem is probably no one knows the nature of the injector cleaner additives found in each and every "brand" of gasoline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 caddyshack - the E number is supposed to be the "up to" percentage of ethanol in the fuel.E-10 - up to 10 percentE-15 - up to 15 percentE-85 - up to 85 percent28 Chrysler - we have found more issues with running the system dry than in leaving fuel in the system. For some reason which no one has yet explained to me; neopreme having once been in a fuel containing ethanol will harden when allowed to dry. Of course, once the diaphragm type pumps harden, flexing will cause the material to crack rendering it unservicable. Those who drive their vehicles daily or even just start them once a week have far fewer issues with component failure.Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I'm not sold on R-134a, let alone E10............a big G/W gimmick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Guys, if you have an old car and the temperature outside gets above 85 as it often does here in Florida, your old car is going to vapor lock. Give me a break! Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water, don't you know? Most of you probably aren't old enough to remember using alcohol as an anti-freeze. The only way I could get my '39 Buicks to run on ethanol, if I'm forced to use it, is I wrapped my fuel lines with the stuff you wrap hot water heater pipes in up north in the winter. I don't know why the government is persecuting us who have older cars, but it's my bet they want to force people into debt buying new cars to improve the economy........as if it will. Meanwhile old people are starving because the money they've saved all their life isn't worth ANYTHING when it comes to CD interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Carbking, thanks for that info. Now I really know why the Tahoe had no pep.Boat owners are having lots of problems with this ethanol junk. My new 50hp out-board motor warranty will be voided if ethanol is used in the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51dyno Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 One thing our politicians do not want to talk about ,why they are subsidising ethenol manufacturing????? It would not surprise me if they do the same for farmers. Remember years back farmers were paid not to grow cetain crps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Well, the climate sure changed here in CT for sure - we had a foot of snow on 10-29!! That's not a joke. It actually is something that was predicted to occur with increasing frequency and voracity as a result of global warming, and is in fact one of the key indicators of how far along the phenomenon has progressed. However, as the jokes will continue anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Those who drive their vehicles daily or even just start them once a week have far fewer issues with component failure.Jon.This is why I stopped fogging my engine and storing it over the winter. I start mine every 3-4 weeks during the winter. I've had no problems whatsoever with ethanol in either my 1970s Triumphs or 1960 Buick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 By observation, the "climates" have changed EVERY season since the start of time. If the term is now "climate" rather than otherwise. According to the E15 label, if I happen to fuel my 2000 Impala with E15, I'm breaking federal law? WHO is going to prosecute these offenses? Or is this just a way for the Feds to not have any liability for damages caused from mis-fueling with E15 fuels? What IF that's all the stations have available, as many desire, and E10 is long gone? Lots of law breakers???? What penalties???Farm subsidies have been around for decades, with their viability having been discussed many times over. As have farm produce price supports. These are discussions not really related to fuel issues, though.Here's a proposal that will possibly have a FAR GREATER positive impact on things. If we take all of the corn crops which were planted solely for ethanol-in-gasoline use, then plow them under and plant grass in their place . . . then purchase cattle to feed on the grass, exclusively, and further certify it as an "organic" operation (no pesticides on the grass, for example). That would up the supply of grass-fed beef that many claim is better for our human bodies. Then, these same farmers could lease their land for windmill electricity generation and/or solar power electricity generation. That would be TWO revenue streams from the same land, for GREEN ENERGY from RENEWABLE SOURCES. Possibly THREE revenue streams if a few hay crops could be baled from the same land!The only down-side might be that the windmills can tend to put "shadows" on weather radar (or military radar, for enemy airborne encroachment detection), so that might need to be worked around somehow.IF we can get the legislation mandating the total gallons of ethanol being added to gasoline per year deactivated, then that promotion of ethanol-in-gasoline use can be scaled back to what it needs to be, basically maintaing E10 as the desired fuel. This legislation was passed during the George W. Bush Presidency, with good intentions at the time, but after gasoline went above $2.00/gallon consistently, miles driven and gallons used greatly diminished, yet the legislative mandates still stand.Regards,NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 So if I find myself in position of having no other choice to but to purchase this E15 garbage for my vehicles because I am out of fuel and there is no other option, I am technically breaking federal law. Is that what you're telling us, Moon?I haven't even seen an E-15 pump yet, and I live on the edge of the "Corn Belt" where E-10 ethanol gas is totally unavoidable and has been for many years. If anybody's "forcing" you to buy E-15 already that's news to me.There will come a day when pump gas can't be used in a carbureted car, and some other source of fuel will be needed (e.g. bought in cans at the hardware store, etc.). You might as well just get used to that. It isn't a conspiracy, political or otherwise. It's progress that was always inevitable. Railing against it is not productive.How many gas pumps did you see in the Star Trek and Star Wars movies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 According to the E15 label, if I happen to fuel my 2000 Impala with E15, I'm breaking federal law? WHO is going to prosecute these offenses? Or is this just a way for the Feds to not have any liability for damages caused from mis-fueling with E15 fuels? What IF that's all the stations have available, as many desire, and E10 is long gone? Lots of law breakers???? What penalties???E15 (a blend of gasoline and ethanol) | Fuels & Fuel Additives | US EPAWhat is the E15 Waiver? In order to protect the emission control systems of vehicles and engines, the Clean Air Act prohibits the introduction into commerce of fuels or fuel additives that are not substantially similar to the fuels or fuel additives used in certifying vehicles and engines to emission standards. However, the Clean Air Act authorizes EPA to grant a waiver of this prohibition if it can be demonstrated that the vehicles and engines using the otherwise prohibited fuel or fuel additive will continue to meet their emission standards over their “full useful life” (e.g., 100,000 or 120,000 miles for light-duty motor vehicles, depending on the vehicle type and model year). In March 2009, Growth Energy (a coalition of U.S. ethanol supporters) and 54 ethanol manufacturers applied for a waiver to increase the allowable amount of ethanol in gasoline from E10 to E15. The waiver application included data on the impact of E15 on vehicle emissions, fuel system materials, and driveability. Additional data were developed by DOE, which in 2008 began testing for potential impacts of various ethanol-gasoline blends on the emission control systems of MY2007 and newer light-duty motor vehicles. This testing followed enactment of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, which calls for significantly increasing the amount of biofuels, such as ethanol, to be used in transportation fuel. On October 13, 2010, based in large part on DOE test data, EPA partially granted Growth Energy's waiver request. This partial waiver allows fuel and fuel additive manufacturers to introduce E15 into commerce for use in MY2007 and newer light-duty motor vehicles, subject to certain conditions. EPA denied the waiver for E15 use in MY2000 and older light-duty motor vehicles, and all heavy-duty gasoline engines and vehicles (e.g., delivery trucks), highway and off-highway motorcycles, and nonroad engines, vehicles, and equipment (e.g., boats, snowmobiles, and lawnmowers) due to insufficient test data or other information to support a waiver for these vehicles and engines. On January 21, 2011, after additional DOE test data were made available to the public (see EPA Docket #EPA-HQ-OAR-2009-0211 at www.regulations.gov), EPA took further action on Growth Energy’s waiver request application by partially approving the waiver to allow the introduction into commerce of E15 for use in MY2001-2006 and newer light-duty motor vehicles, subject to the same conditions that apply to the partial waiver decision for MY2007 and newer light-duty motor vehicles. Taken together, the two waiver decisions allow the introduction into commerce of E15 for use in MY2001 and newer light-duty motor vehicles if the waiver conditions are met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 In order for the manufacturers to ensure continued compliance with fuel economy and engine emissions certifications, they must advocate that the consumer uses fuels and motor oils of the same type as those used to obtain the original compliance certificate for the particular vehicle. IF the owner might vary from these recommendations, there can be some ultimate impact on exhaust emissions and fuel economy, compared to if the customer had used the recommended items.UNLESS the particular vehicle has FlexFuel capabilities from the factory, then we have the EPA saying "It's OK to deviate from OEM factory recommendations". Recommendations which can also influence the OEM's warranty coverage.It also appears that both E10 and E15 will need to be sold by the same physical fueling station, rather than E15 replacing E10 completely at the fueling station. Unless all conditions set forth by the EPA are met, then E15 can't "be introduced into commerce". It almost looks like they built their own roadblocks to E15 happening.Regards,NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Yaros Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 The November issue of Car Collector Chronicles has a feature article dealing with ethanol blended fuels. Find it here - Dave (D.Yaros) on Scribd | ScribdDave (D.Yaros) on Scribd | Scribd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest South_paw Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Just removed this tag from a new piece of equiptment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Ok guys, you got a little off topic here. I had to remove a few posts. Keep it civil please.wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim_Edwards Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Ok guys, you got a little off topic here. I had to remove a few posts. Keep it civil please.wayneWell then how about deleting the posts from you no who that got the thing off track in the first place rather than just those which rebut them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I've had no problems whatsoever with ethanol in either my 1970s Triumphs or 1960 Buick.So you are telling us that your mileage didn't change to the negative side in your Buick?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stock_steve Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) Well then how about deleting the posts from you no who that got the thing off track in the first place rather than just those which rebut them.Ditto that. Wayne please trace the origin of the sarcasm in this thread and delete it like you have the rest of us. There is NOTHING I wrote that was not civil.Thanks. Edited November 12, 2011 by stock_steve (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So you are telling us that your mileage didn't change to the negative side in your Buick??Not really enough to notice, maybe 5-8% at most. I don't recall driving any extensive highway trips on E10, but I probably did by the time I drove to Flint for the 2003 Centenial Meet. City driving was unaffected. The whole time I owned the car I was getting about 14 mpg city/17 mpg highway (which for that car was extraordinarily good mainly because I had the "375-E" regular gas engine option with lower compression, single exhaust, and a tiny Stromberg carb). Losing 5% off those figures is difficult to notice when you only drive a few hundred or a thousand miles in a year.I was vigilant in adjusting the carb for peak performance and driveability the entire time i owned the car. This probably helped mitigate the effects somewhat, keeping the loss to a minimum. Also having a total diet of E10 made for a consistent tuning target that helped as well. Finally I used an electric fuel pump due to severe percolation issues that arose in 1996, years before the introduction of E10, which may have helped as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Maine Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So if E15 is the only fuel available where you live, what are you supposed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So if E15 is the only fuel available where you live, what are you supposed to do?Rethink how you cast your vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now