Formal sedan ?

[jvsb]

I see several ads for club sedans but few for formal sedans. Being new to this could someone explain the difference? Are formal sedans more rare? Thanks in advance.

[Guest bkazmer]

club sedans are "close coupled", the passenger compartment is basically within the wheelbase - the shorter greenhouse is noticeable. A formal sedan has blind rear quarters for thr privacy of the rear seat passenger, and usually a padded roof

[jvsb]

Thanks much. I assume that formal sedans are only on the longer wheelbase cars. Do any of the club sedans have the padded roofs? thanks.

[West Peterson]

Neither club sedans nor formal sedans have rear quarter windows. Formal sedans normally have a fully padded top and a division window (usually only one side-facing jump seat), while club sedans don't. Both have shorter wheelbases than touring sedans and limousines. With the exception of the 1940 club sedan, I think that most clubs and formals share the same body.

[Guest bkazmer]

West, would you agree with this distinction?

A club sedan has a shorter roof than a formal sedan. Both have blind rear quarters, but on the formal sedan they extend past the rear axle. The body looks like a toruting sedan with the rear quarter filled in while a club sedan has a 4 dr victoria look.

Or I could be out to lunch!

[West Peterson]

Both have blind rear quarters. The distinction I've always used is that a formal sedan has a division window and is long wheelbase. I guess usually with a padded top. I'm not sure I've ever seen what I would call a club sedan on a long wheelbase.

No. A club sedan and formal sedan are basically the same body, on the same chassis (in the Packard world, anyway). A formal sedan has the padded top, division window and a single side-facing jump seat (side-facing because it's on the shorter wheelbase than a touring or limo).

The 1940 Club Sedan is a different car altogether from the Formal Sedan.

Edited October 14, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

West, would you agree with this distinction?

A club sedan has a shorter roof than a formal sedan. Both have blind rear quarters, but on the formal sedan they extend past the rear axle. The body looks like a toruting sedan with the rear quarter filled in while a club sedan has a 4 dr victoria look.

No. The bodies are identical. Of course, it all depends on what year of Packard we're discussing. Once you get into the 1940s, there are differences.

Edited October 14, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

I may be wrong in regards to the 5-pass. sedan sharing the same body with the clubs and formals, so I've edited slightly what I've said above.

[Guest bkazmer]

[Guest bkazmer]

club prior, i'll try again with formal

[jvsb]

I am more interested in the differences between the formal and club for the pre-war packards (mainly 33-37 or so). THanks again for your input but must admit I am still a little fuzzy about the issue.

[Guest bkazmer]

[Guest bkazmer]

doofus here finally posts two photos - first is club, second formal

[fordmerc]

OK: so what is a '41 120 with a divider window and fixed front seat called?

[Roads2run]

Here are a few points to add:

In 1937 Packard made a model 1507 which had a 139" wheelbase for both Club and Formal Sedans. The model number, 1507, indicates the car has a Twelve cylinder engine, a 139" wheelbase and could be purchased with many different body styles, including a Formal Body or a Club Sedan body. Limiting this discussion to the two body styles in question, the Formal Sedan was designated as body style no. 1032, and the Club Sedan was no. 1036. Both of these model sedans have the same engine and wheelbase. However, be aware both of these sedans were available as either a Twelve or a Super Eight. The pictures shown in this thread appear to be Super Eights which had a 134" wheelbase.

Enough of the specs and to make it simple, in 1937 the interior of a Formal has a single jump seat and divider window as Wes points out, and the Club Sedan has neither. The rear seat in a Club Sedan is close coupled, or just forward of the rear axle with the thought that it was therefore "sportier." The Formal Sedan's rear seat is farther to the rear, making the interior passenger compartment "roomier."

The exterior of a Club Sedan had a larger built-in trunk, whereas the Formal had a shallower trunk, and a leather top. The rear section of the body is longer in the case of the Formal Sedan as it is not close coupled. There are a few other differances, but these are the main ones.

Hope this helps.

[jvsb]

Thanks again. The last explanation with pics helped a lot.

Jvsb

[West Peterson]

A.J. and BKaz.

I owe you an apology. Too many things on my mind.

As Kaz has illustrated, the bodies of the two are different. However, they do share the same wheelbase (not for 1940, though).

The formal sedan shares the body with the 5-passenger sedan, not the club sedan.

Edited October 15, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

OK: so what is a '41 120 with a divider window and fixed front seat called?

That would be called an anomaly. Photos, please.

[Joe Block]

by 42 formal is 138 inch wheel base. longer than the standard sedan,

[fordmerc]

That would be called an anomaly. Photos, please.

Images of the anomaly. I was told that the original owner didn't want to appear too wealthy so she bought the 120 but had the divider placed and still let the chauffeur drive. There is no glass. but tracks suggest a slider.

Edited October 16, 2011 by fordmerc (see edit history)

[Guest bkazmer]

your explanation makes sense. That looks like a regular 120 seat. factory division windows have a more massive front seat frame with room for the window to drop down.

[West Peterson]

by 42 formal is 138 inch wheel base. longer than the standard sedan,

At the risk of being wrong, again, the standard 2007 sedan (the chassis the formal is on) is also 138 inches (model 1542).

[West Peterson]

Images of the anomaly. I was told that the original owner didn't want to appear too wealthy so she bought the 120 but had the divider placed and still let the chauffeur drive. There is no glass. but tracks suggest a slider.

Interesting. What does the division window look like? Is it three pieces? Do all three go up at the same time? The frame at the top makes it look as though the two side pieces may not go all the way up.

[fordmerc]

While I do not have any glass, there are tracks that suggest there were two "fixed" side lights and the two tracks would have allowed a sliding pane in the center. All speculation on my part.

This anomaly is not necessarily good, since the front seat is fixed and I'm long enough to be a bit cramped in the driver seat. The rear seat and door panels of the car are upholstered and the front seat and door side panels were leather (seat now an embossed synthetic)

[JD in KC]

Interesting on the 120 divider. There was a discussion some time back on a '41 120 that I've provided a link to. Unfortunately the eBay item is long gone, so the pictures are not available.

http://forums.aaca.org/f134/41-120-divider-256055.html

[Joe Block]

My 42 formal tracks look like 2 x4 on end with slide cut in them and their upholstered and the glass hit the roof ( not ceiling guides), so when the glass is down it very much a concealed the entire diver window.

[Highlander160]

Those of you who say the 5pass sedan and formal share the same body structure, you're right on the money. Several years back I restored 34 1107 Formal Sedan. During the interior and roof restoration it was very apparent how they shared the overall structure. The rear window in a Formal, ususally about 1/3 the size of the standard sedan window, had it's own frame work and sheet metal that tied in to same wood substructure. Packard didn't bother to weld or fill the edges since the whole affair was covered in a padded leather. The same was apparent in the 1/4 window area. Not all of the wood was used from the 5pass versions, but the basics were there. This one had 2 jump seats and one of them indeed faced sideways. The roof covering was a challenge. The sides of the padded leather top were 1pc but the deck was in 2 so overall, a 4pc top pattern. The split in the leather on the center deck was even with the rearmost door jamb. We ordered extra large hydes dyed Packard Blue from our ol buddy Bill Hirsch, and if I recall correctly the hydes were in excess of 65sqft to accomodate the side panels. 1/2 rounds brass mouldings were then screwed around the perimeter of the leather, the screw heads filled, and then painted to match the car. On the original, the fill was a very hard version of the old school spot putty that lacquer painters used to use back in the day. Why formal and closed cars seem so much less in price has always been a head-scratcher to me. The shear elegance and craftsmanship that Packard employed in these cars is exponentially higher than most any open car. Nice topic...

[Packard Don]

The photo that fordmerc posted was neither a formal sedan nor a club sedan as neither had the rear quarter windows that are clearly visible in the photo. Of course, a formal limousine (as opposed to formal sedan) is different yet, having the longer limousine wheelbase of around 148" but without rear quarter windows. Even on later model Cadillacs and other makes, the term applies but many people seem to think that formal limousine means it has a partition which is not the case.

[Joe Block]

club sedans are "close coupled", the passenger compartment is basically within the wheelbase - the shorter greenhouse is noticeable. A formal sedan has blind rear quarters for passenger privacy of the rear seat passenger, and usually a padded roof

Formal sedans have divider windows usually, in Packards they almost always have them, the reverse is not true, a divider window was option in 1941 for the 160-180 138 inch wheel base sedans.

[Guest impulsivelystupid.lol]

Just to add my two cents... There were plenty touring sedans that went through conversions back in the day to make them a Club sedan....and they may be exceptions to the rules you mention.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Back to the originating post, jvsb asks "Are formal sedans more rare?"

Using production estimates based on surviving vehicle numbers, for the 1934 Eight series there were 464 club sedans (body type 716) manufactured and only 38 formal sedans (body type 712). The ratio may have been somewhat different as you moved upscale to the Super Eight and Twelve but club sedans were far more popular than formal sedans during the years when both were offered on the same chassis.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)