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No back penalties for old cars in California


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Many of you may already know this. I still find many that do not though. There is a directive in the CA DMV code book, 4604(d)3, that exempts most old cars from having any back penalties due to not registering vehicles or not placing them in a "non-op" status. This equates to sometimes as much as $1,000.00 in penalties for not filing. It could make a barn find car somewhat unrestorable if you know you have to pay penalties. Past president of ACCC and active AACA member Jack Passey put this together for us back in the 70's. Thank you Jack.

Let me know if you need more info. Most DMV offices have to be told about this rule as they don't know it themselves.

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Can you find me that bill # so I can get a refund? I have been to the DMV 8 times so far to register a 1932 Buick and they have still messed it up, I just got the pink slip in with the wrong License plate # and the wrong vin# after going to the CHP and three more times to the DMV. I belive the only hire the mentally handicapped which is pretty hard to belive since most mentally handicapped people I know could get it right at least the second time.

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Hopefully these links will work

V C Section 4604 Nonoperated Vehicles

V C Section 5051 Definitions

V C Section 5004 Vehicles of Historic Value

V C Section 5004.5 Pre 1943 Motorcycles

The first link is the rule that anything that fits within certain guidelines as described in the subsequest links are exempt from filing non-op's and thus are exempt from back penalties. Basically anyone that is a car collector and what ever cars you may want to say are going into your collection. Even includeds parts cars. A few times we have had DMV offices that refused to comply once a car person pointed it out but we were victorious in every case because we have contacts at the top in CA DMV and were able to override them. And boy does that feel good.

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  • 2 years later...

I'm seriously thinking about buying a classic car (more than 25 years old) that doesn't have a title. I checked with DMV and it currently has about $600 in back registration fees and penalties as it hasn't been registered in 11 years. Anyway, I'm trying to get prepared for the battle with DMV where I tell them that they need to waive the $600 in fees due to DMV section 4604 d (3). Would you be willing to share your contacts with DMV management if my local DMV office tries to force me to pay the fees? Also, question for you: if I am able to convince them to waive the fees due to this being a "vehicle of historic value," would I be required to have the special historic vehicle plates on it?

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  • 10 months later...
I'm seriously thinking about buying a classic car (more than 25 years old) that doesn't have a title. I checked with DMV and it currently has about $600 in back registration fees and penalties as it hasn't been registered in 11 years. Anyway, I'm trying to get prepared for the battle with DMV where I tell them that they need to waive the $600 in fees due to DMV section 4604 d (3). Would you be willing to share your contacts with DMV management if my local DMV office tries to force me to pay the fees? Also, question for you: if I am able to convince them to waive the fees due to this being a "vehicle of historic value," would I be required to have the special historic vehicle plates on it?

I just ran across this old thread and since I JUST had a talk with someone that WITH THE HELP OF THE LOCAL DMV OFFICE decided to surrender the title of his father's collector car to avoid pack-fees and then bring it back with a SALVAGE TITLE.. YES-- TRUE! The DMV told him that was the ONLY way to avoid paying the penalties! Here is the actual chapter and verse from the Vehicle Code that everyone going into DMV should take with them:

(Actually, I always fill out a statement of fact (REG256) with this statement: "I am a collector and this is a collector vehicle exempt from back fees as defined in VC 4604 paragraph B")

5051 collector is defined:

(a) "Collector" is the owner of one or more vehicles described in

Section 5004 or of one or more special interest vehicles, as defined

in this article, who collects, purchases, acquires, trades, or

disposes of the vehicle, or parts thereof, for his or her own use, in

order to preserve, restore, and maintain the vehicle for hobby or

historical purposes.

VC4604 Is the code that describes the non-op penalties, Section D lists the exceptions:

(d) A certification is not required to be filed pursuant to

subdivision (a) for one or more of the following:

Paragraph 3 is the collectable car exception that you NEED to keep in mind and ask for a supervisor if any problem:

(3) A vehicle described in Section 5004, 5004.5, or 5051, as

provided in Section 4604.2. However, the registered owner may file a

certificate of non-operation in lieu of the certification specified in

subdivision (a).

VC5004(a) defines collectible vehicles. Paragraph 3 is the broadest category:

5004. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this code, any owner of a vehicle described in paragraph (1), (2), or (3) which is operated or moved over the highway primarily for the purpose of historical exhibition or other similar purpose shall, upon application in the manner and at the time prescribed by the department, be issued special identification plates for the vehicle:

(3) A vehicle which was manufactured after 1922, is at least 25 years old, and is of historic interest.

5004. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this code, any owner of a vehicle described in paragraph (1), (2), or (3) which is operated or moved over the highway primarily for the purpose of historical exhibition or other similar purpose shall, upon application in the manner and at the time prescribed by the department, be issued special identification plates for the vehicle:

(1) A motor vehicle with an engine of 16 or more cylinders manufactured prior to 1965.

(2) A motor vehicle manufactured in the year 1922 or prior thereto.

(3) A vehicle which was manufactured after 1922, is at least 25 years old, and is of historic interest.

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Sounds to me like the above makes modified or Hot Rod vehicles ineligible. It also sounds like you would not be able to put one of those historic license plates on a Hot Rod either.

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-QUOTE=58Mustang;1366821]I see no mention of originality in the above statutes. Only age and historic interest is mentioned.

Age is the main factor in dealing with this(25 yrs old and older or a model of which there were less than 2500 sold in CA in a model year). The DMV should not be(nor are they) in a position to tell anyone what is collectable and what is not. There are people out there collecting and restoring Pinto's for heavens sake. I deal with this issue almost weekly and I can assure anyone out there, the law and the statues are on our side. In no case have I ever lost this argument with the DMV. You just have to be willing to escalate it to me or know the DMV code good enough to show them what is correct. Just last week I was on the phone with a 17 year DMV employee at the phone center and a supposed expert on this statute that was telling me there was some magical list of "collectible" vehicles that DMV maintained. There is no such list. Bill 209-402-6167

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there is a separate code for custom built cars. they issue 500 new VIN's per year for newly constructed vehicles. Hot rod and modified vehicles ARE eligible to fall under this code as long as the vehicle fits the 25 years old or older part. Again, DMV is not and should not be in the business of determining what is collectible. We should be careful not too abuse this though.

Bill Adams

209-402-6167

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  • 2 weeks later...

This may sound ridiculous, but does this give someone an incentive to store a car for long periods of time (decades?) without having to register it? The reason I ask is because I am looking for my father's car (which I believe is/was in CA), and I wonder if someone may be storing it without registering it.

Thanks,

Rich

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This may sound ridiculous, but does this give someone an incentive to store a car for long periods of time (decades?) without having to register it? The reason I ask is because I am looking for my father's car (which I believe is/was in CA), and I wonder if someone may be storing it without registering it.

Thanks,

Rich

It may indeed cause someone to store the car for long periods of time without registering it, which is the requirement in CA if it is used on the road. If you are going to store a car you own and it will not be on the road, you should file the required non-op form. The cost is minimal. One of the keys to keeping and using this statute is to not abuse it. Or use it as it was unintended. However, we find that for the most part, collectors are unaware of these statutes altogether.

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most other states have no requirement to register a stored car

Most other states do not charge back penalties for cars. You do have the option of filing a certificate of non-operation though if the car will not be on the road. We do have the exemption for smog requirements on pre 1975 cars so that helps to offset the negatives here in CA

Edited by xdmn (see edit history)
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It may indeed cause someone to store the car for long periods of time without registering it, which is the requirement in CA if it is used on the road. If you are going to store a car you own and it will not be on the road, you should file the required non-op form. The cost is minimal. One of the keys to keeping and using this statute is to not abuse it. Or use it as it was unintended. However, we find that for the most part, collectors are unaware of these statutes altogether.

Thanks! I know that in Indiana (as in other places), if a car is stored outside, especially on a city street, it has to be fully registered. I wasn't sure about requirements for inside a garage. Cheers.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Called ya today ! Wyane RE : D M. V Mack RD. First visit today I made my second visit to the DMV I was cold out there before it on the first time I went there I was pulling 457 dollars for the registration and put a? Weeks man how much about the vehicle for it was going to be till tax on that included 357 today I went in today again from 357 up to $610 and it also I was told that by the DMV down and called after I left there today was not going to pay the 500 $10 if they want to go over there for the for the registration that I was told we can restrict 57 so I'm going to let you go over there and see where we're at and hopefully you can get back with me my phone number is 916 667 5372 and I look forward to your call thank you Wyno

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  • 2 weeks later...
Most other states do not charge back penalties for cars. You do have the option of filing a certificate of non-operation though if the car will not be on the road. We do have the exemption for smog requirements on pre 1975 cars so that helps to offset the negatives here in CA

Just remember that while 1975 and newer are exempt currently from emission checks that all cars from 1966 to 1975 ( have exhaust emission controls ) and according to law a owner must maintain those systems. If you read California smog control laws you will also notice that the state can pull those vehicles back into smog check at any time if the state deems it necessary. Newly passed California Cap and Trade law will no doubt sometime in the future bring those cars back into smog check. One of the reasons this will happen is the state is scaring away businesses in record number. The company I worked for ( major auto manufacturer ) left Ca. in 2006 and I understand Toyota Motor is in the process of moving it's headquarters to Texas and there are literally hundreds of companies that have left the state. All this means is California will be looking for alternative place to reach it's carbon offset requirement. As in the past the state has always picked on the auto owner because there is apathy in the ranks and little struggle passing laws against the aware motorist. The most recent example of the state and it's appetite for motorist money is the new mileage tax law that was passed a few weeks ago, whereby a GPS will track your mileage or you will have to go to DMV once a year for mileage check verification in addition to the already gas tax fee on a gallon of gas.

The negatives in California are plenty and growing every day. All this with a state legislature that can pass laws with not a 2/3 majority like it used to be, but with a simple 51% majority. It's no wonder people from outside California ( especially the ones that ran away from that state ) call it the California Socialist Republic.

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  • 1 month later...

And the "Tax by the mile" will spread..... to all of "Amerika".

Just remember that while 1975 and newer are exempt currently from emission checks that all cars from 1966 to 1975 ( have exhaust emission controls ) and according to law a owner must maintain those systems. If you read California smog control laws you will also notice that the state can pull those vehicles back into smog check at any time if the state deems it necessary. Newly passed California Cap and Trade law will no doubt sometime in the future bring those cars back into smog check. One of the reasons this will happen is the state is scaring away businesses in record number. The company I worked for ( major auto manufacturer ) left Ca. in 2006 and I understand Toyota Motor is in the process of moving it's headquarters to Texas and there are literally hundreds of companies that have left the state. All this means is California will be looking for alternative place to reach it's carbon offset requirement. As in the past the state has always picked on the auto owner because there is apathy in the ranks and little struggle passing laws against the aware motorist. The most recent example of the state and it's appetite for motorist money is the new mileage tax law that was passed a few weeks ago, whereby a GPS will track your mileage or you will have to go to DMV once a year for mileage check verification in addition to the already gas tax fee on a gallon of gas.

The negatives in California are plenty and growing every day. All this with a state legislature that can pass laws with not a 2/3 majority like it used to be, but with a simple 51% majority. It's no wonder people from outside California ( especially the ones that ran away from that state ) call it the California Socialist Republic.

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I have used the section of the vehicle code cited but the first poster. It saved about $300 in back fees. In fact, I got a refund from the DMV because the friendly DMV lady observed that I had overpaid (paid the penalty) and she realized that the cited section of the vehicle code would apply. On the other hand, just recently I tried to cite that section of the vehicle code when completing the registration of a 1976 Gremlin which had been in my garage, hangar and back yard for over ten years. The DMV clerk denied my attempt, but the resulting fees still were not too expensive so I did not protest.

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I have used the section of the vehicle code cited but the first poster. It saved about $300 in back fees. In fact, I got a refund from the DMV because the friendly DMV lady observed that I had overpaid (paid the penalty) and she realized that the cited section of the vehicle code would apply. On the other hand, just recently I tried to cite that section of the vehicle code when completing the registration of a 1976 Gremlin which had been in my garage, hangar and back yard for over ten years. The DMV clerk denied my attempt, but the resulting fees still were not too expensive so I did not protest.

You have to make the same argument each time as you are always going against the grain on this. Every time I can convince a collector to stick to their guns on this, we win as the code is on our side. Please contact me via this forum or at xdmn@yahoo.com and I will help you with this.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Hopefully these links will work

V C Section 4604 Nonoperated Vehicles

V C Section 5051 Definitions

V C Section 5004 Vehicles of Historic Value

V C Section 5004.5 Pre 1943 Motorcycles

The first link is the rule that anything that fits within certain guidelines as described in the subsequest links are exempt from filing non-op's and thus are exempt from back penalties. Basically anyone that is a car collector and what ever cars you may want to say are going into your collection. Even includeds parts cars. A few times we have had DMV offices that refused to comply once a car person pointed it out but we were victorious in every case because we have contacts at the top in CA DMV and were able to override them. And boy does that feel good.

Looks like I need to update the links on this as the CA DMV has changed the web address or something.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d3/c1/a5/4604

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d3/c1/a8/5004

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d3/c1/a8.3/5051

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  • 1 month later...
Many of you may already know this. I still find many that do not though. There is a directive in the CA DMV code book, 4604(d)3, that exempts most old cars from having any back penalties due to not registering vehicles or not placing them in a "non-op" status. This equates to sometimes as much as $1,000.00 in penalties for not filing. It could make a barn find car somewhat unrestorable if you know you have to pay penalties. Past president of ACCC and active AACA member Jack Passey put this together for us back in the 70's. Thank you Jack.

Let me know if you need more info. Most DMV offices have to be told about this rule as they don't know it themselves.

Bill,

Hello. I currently have a 1984 Mercedes 500sec with tags back 6 years. Im hoping this strategy will work in terms of getting this car up to date without paying the $700 in back fees.

I realized you may be really close to where I am located so I was wondering should I have any issues wold you consider helping me DMV?

Michelle

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  • 2 months later...

hello, my name is mike and i have a question in regards to the above mentioned vehicle codes. my father bought a truck about 5 or six years ago. its a 1984 chevy silverado c20 one ton, with a 350 5.7 litre v8. right now the dmv is telling him that the registration fees owed are around the $2000.00 mark. the truck has been sitting on a ranch unused for 4 of those years. it was purchased from another ranch that used it as a ranch truck only. he has since moved and taken the truck with him but now wants to give ownership of the truck to me. with it being 31 years old, does it fall under any of the above codes to waive back registration fees? the truck ran when purchased, then had some issues where it did not run. we fixed it, then something else went bad, fixed it, then it was something else. my father developed health issues and wasnt able to work and therefore the registration lapsed a few years. it was registered when purchased and was current till 2011. he put a non op on it but dmv revoked it before a year was up. due to being sick he was no longer able to work and could not pay the registration. any help would be greatly appreciated as i want to take ownership and retore the truck. you can email me at mswezea10@gmail.com or call me directly at 805 315 0921. thank you for your time and assistance.

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  • 6 months later...

I have not posted here in a while. However, this continues to be very important. I am a director with the Association of California Car Clubs and Collectors. www.acccdefender.org We are THE watchdog organization for all car folks in CA and have been since 1971 when we were concerned that CARB would be overstepping it's authority, among other things. We can assist when citing this code or applying it. Most DMV clerks are unaware of it or unclear with how it is supposed to be applied. When presented properly, we have never lost a case where the vehicle is supposed to be exempt by statute from non op fees. As long as it has not been on the road, there should be no penalties. 

We are also reviving the discussion and legislation on moving the smog exemption up to 1980 in CA. Let us know if you would like to get involved please. Will need all the help we can get. Hope to be able to get SEMA on board as well.  Seems like a good time to promote this since every classic car enthusiast should be engaged with regards to what the recent re-interpretation by the EPA of altering your own vehicle.

 

Bill Adams

xdmn@yahoo.com

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  • 3 weeks later...

  I was wondering if anyone has tried / used this on a motorcycle ?

Before I knew of this , I had purchased an 81 Harley Davidson FLT that was a salvage ! I promptly went down as all of us educated Sheeple do and payed my 300+ transfer and the back fees from previous owner stating to the rep that I would be working on this for a few years and i wanted to pay everything so I would just come in and receive my title and plate !

Well after three and a half yrs I had jumped through there hoops had my CHP inspection My brake and light and insured it , I went back to find that they had penalized me for no payment of registration totaling 400+ !!!! Having my address and all pertinent information on me I do not understand why I never received anything giving me the chance at a non-op ! They themselves are unable to explain this to me either !!!!

Being that in California anything over 175 cc (i Believe) is classified a motor vehicle I was hoping this vehicle code could help me !?!?!?

 

P.S. I am not sure if they will do it for cars , but after searching far and wide for the Brake and light chk ranging from to $69 To $99 dollars I found that the Honda MC shop would do it for less than $20.00 !!!

 

P.P.S I would like more info on the legislation for the updated smog exemption ! I would like to help , not sure what I can do on limited funds but I have an 80 F350 I've owned for 28 yrs and have seen 3 or more times that they have bypassed the exemption updates which i have found very frustrating !!!

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  • 4 weeks later...
Quote

Only age and historic interest is mentioned.

Age is the main factor in dealing with this (25 yrs old and older or a model of which there were less than 2500 sold in CA in a model year)

 

All good information but I found the above especially interesting as it would make my newest car, a 1992 Nissan 240SX Special Edition Convertible, qualify as only 2327 were built and not necessarily all sold in California although I imagine that most were. My own '50s and '60s vintage cars had long ago fallen from the DMV database due to changes in the non-op rule which, for a time some years ago, had to be renewed annually and as I had moved twice and thought my cars had non-ops (which they did when I moved), the DMV in their infinite wisdom deleted them from the database.

 

It wasn't until recently that I discovered the issue so have had to take the necessary steps of having them all VIN verified and applications submitted for the non-ops. A difficult, time-consuming and expensive process, especially considering that they are stored in my Oregon workshop. Since I'm a California resident, Oregon won't let me register them there either so keeping the California titles is apparently the only way unless I want to somehow get dual "citizenship" for the two states! It was part of the reason that I became a VIN verifier myself and through the application process every DMV person I spoke with said, sure, no problem with verifying my own cars. Guess what? Now that I am licensed they tell me that I cannot do so as it's apparently a conflict of interest even though I already have titles in my own name.

Edited by Packard Don (see edit history)
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  • 1 month later...

To register a car in CA:  Contact the CHP and have them come out to your place to verify the VIN.  Go to the DMV with the CHP VIN verification and tell them that you lost the title (pink slip), the registration and the license plates.  They will issue you new plates, pink slip and registration.  Easy peazy.

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The California Highway Patrol no longer makes house calls. Sometimes you can flag down a local police officer but even they will more likely than not refuse to do it so taking the vehicle to the DMV or Highway Patrol, or calling a mobile VIN Verifier are the only ways. Of course, the first two choices would not work for a vehicle stored out of state such as mine and having a mobile VIN Verifier do it was far too expensive.

 

You can also save a lot of time by NOT telling the DMV that you lost the title (pink slip).  Instead, download and fill the appropriate forms, write a check for the fees (there is a fee chart on the DMV Web site) and mail them in. It might take up up to 60 days but unless you're in a real rush, it saves much hassle.  If you are in a rush, fill the application for replacement title, make an appointment, then bring it into the DMV. To register, you'll also need to fill the forms for that and to get plates, another form might be needed but the bottom line is to fill the forms in advance. Be sure to also ask for a month sticker too as it's not automatically sent or given.

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  • 1 month later...

Calif DMV no longer gives direct online access to Motor Vehicle Law.  One has to go to http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=3.&title=&part=&chapter=1.&article=5. and do a bunch of reading..   I am not skilled enough to cut and paste or highlight the pertinent information as one needs to go to another section of the vehicle code to read the law that applies to antique vehicles.

 

   I hope some other member knows how to supply current links and possibly top post it to help us in Calif to keep our money in our wallet.

 

Bill

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  • 7 months later...

Here is the current link: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/bb11c904-037d-4638-9311-7a9cc39e8f8a/12vin21.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

 

Vehicles Exempt from Planned Non-operation New Information Planned non-operation (PNO) requirements do not apply to historical interest and special interest vehicles. NOTE: A special interest vehicle is a vehicle of any age that is unaltered from the manufacturer’s original specifications and, because of its significance includes, but is not limited to, an out-of-production vehicle or a model that had less than 2,000 sold in California in a model year that is collected, preserved, restored, or maintained by a hobbyist as a leisure pursuit. Procedures A certificate of non-operation (CNO) is required to renew the expired registration of historical interest and special interest vehicles to waive fees and/or penalties. Background Although historical and special interest vehicles are exempt from PNO requirements, a CNO is required upon renewal. Distribution Notification that this memo is available online, at www.dmv.ca.gov under Publications was made via California DMV’s Automated E-mail Alert System in June 2012.

 

   

Edited by RadRods (see edit history)
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  • 8 months later...

Hi, inquiring is this code still apply CA DMV code book 4604 (d) 3 in Califonia cause I'm going to DMV to register a vehicle thats been for 10 years without a non op but has no tickets and has not been on the road,  if this applies it would great to use so I would avoud and accrue the back, fees that the CA DMV  $1099 is asking for. Let know please, any help would be appreciate,  and I have other vehicle that I would like use this exemption CA DMV code 4604 (d) 3. Thank you in advance Jimmy Perez

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5 minutes ago, MrKarman said:

Hi, inquiring is this code still apply CA DMV code book 4604 (d) 3 in Califonia cause I'm going to DMV to register a vehicle thats been for 10 years without a non op but has no tickets and has not been on the road,  if this applies it would great to use so I would avoud and accrue the back, fees that the CA DMV  $1099 is asking for. Let know please, any help would be appreciate,  and I have other vehicle that I would like use this exemption CA DMV code 4604 (d) 3. Thank you in advance Jimmy Perez

Jimmy, see post #35 above.  I just followed  the link therein and it still works.  You can also call (on a workday) the DMV Public Inquiries Unit in Sacramento at (916) 657-6560,  and ask them for a citation (paragraph number) in the Field Offices' Operations Manual, as the Field Offices (strangely enough) follow that manual but not the Vehicle Code sections like the one you just cited.  The Public Inquiries Unit is MUCH more familiar with the provisions relating to collectible cars than any Field Office.

 

Now, know that this applies to vehicles **eligible** for Historic Vehicle (HV) plates, meaning (1) over 25 model years old and (2) used as collector cars not as daily drivers, no matter what plates are on it now.  As the link tells, you must still fill out a Certificate of Non-Operation (CNO) form in which you declare under oath that the car has not been operated or left standing on a public street or highway since the expiration of the last registration.  As I recall, the CNO is part of another form, but the Public Inquiries Unit can give you the form numbr, and you can download and print the form from the "forms" section of the DMV website.

 

Good luck and Happy New Year!

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Don, that's a good point.  The late Jack Passey got this provision enacted about 25 years ago, BUT DMV drops vehicles from their computers (in most cases) after four years on neither being registered nor non-op'ed.  Seven years ago I had a very difficult time re-registering a 1939 Cad 75 last registered in 1981 even though I had the 1968 title in my name.

 

My advice is that if you have a car already in the system that will be down for awhile, pay the bloody $20/year non-op fee even though you don't have to--just to save a huge expense of time and frustration when you re-activate the car.

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