West Peterson Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Many letters and phone calls have been received in regards to the 1939 Bantam story in the latest issue of Antique Automobile. I spelled the body style Shooting "Break", and the reason I spell it "break" is because the origin of the term is from a cart used to break horses. As time went on, those carts were also used for hunting, thus, shooting break. As the term transferred from horse and buggy to automobiles, the correct spelling became muddied, perhaps because "brake" is an automotive term and "break" isn't.The information came from a researcher from the Smithsonian Institute's transportation department. I'm well aware that most people and even large car companies refer to the body style as "brake," but since it is a body style and not a proper noun, there is no definitive way of spelling it. In my opinion, "break" is more correct, and until someone gives a stronger argument, that's the way I'll spell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Good for you Wes. I thought your usage was correct and you've confirmed it. That's why you get the big money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMW1939 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Not sure about brake or break, but it is Smithsonian Institution. Oooops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Good luck West! You can't win. Every time I have seen this body style mentioned in print, someone has argued that whatever spelling was used is wrong. I would have probably just called it a 1939 Bantam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Hmm... :confused:I always thought it ( "Shooting Brake" ) was British-English, and never gave it a second thought...Any comments from "across the pond" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I will not argue for it or against it. I was involved with British cars back when there were British cars. They (the Brits) always spelled it "Brake" in all of the manuals, parts books and other literature. Spelling was optional 200 years ago. One person might have spelled it "brake" another may have preferred "brack" or "brek". No one really cared. Proper spelling is a relatively new idea compared to the spoken language.For me, I prefer "Brake". It's the preferred spelling according to the people that coined the term, but to each his own. I will continue to use "labor", "center" and other Americanized English spellings since I live here. I also won't put that pretentious little cross on my 7s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I am more comfortable seeing it as "brake" since that is the British usage I have always seen and this is a British body term as John points out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Wolk Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 The words "dash board" have certainly changed over time, too, but have buggy origins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I've always seen "brake" and "break" looks incorrect to my eye. However, I know West doesn't make simple mistakes like that, and I'm happy to see the explanation behind it and why he decided to go with break. Thanks for the history lesson and details, that's a factoid I didn't have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) I spelled the body style Shooting "Break", and the reason I spell it "break" is because the origin of the term is from a cart used to break horses. Apparently the cart was used to break horses, but was called (and spelled) a "brake" even then ( Re: Shooting brake ). I think the whole point of the process was to have the capacity to add extra weight and thereby "brake" the animal's progress.From www. AustralianHeavyHorseForums .com.au • View topic - Breaking-in Gig Dimensions : Edited September 30, 2011 by Dave@Moon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gary Hearn Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I always thought a shooting break was what you stood behind when hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 "Break" is the French word for "station wagon". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tarheel Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 As West explained the spelling was detirmined by period of time and the country. From a website:"An all-original and fully restored Shooting Break carriage by J. J. Durham of Rosemont, PA. Built in 1898, it seats a driver plus one on the driver's seat and can carry up to two passengers or grooms. Drawn by a team of two horses, this type of carriage was used in the 19th and early 20th centuries.Location: southeast Pennsylvania." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) Apparently the cart was used to break horses, but was called (and spelled) a "brake" even then ( Re: Shooting brake ). I think the whole point of the process was to have the capacity to add extra weight and thereby "brake" the animal's progress.From www. AustralianHeavyHorseForums .com.au • View topic - Breaking-in Gig Dimensions : I'd rather see some original information for the "brake" argument. You're link is one person's modern day interpretation, and the Smithsonian Institution's retired transportation curator says the opposite. The point wasn't to brake a horses progress, it was to break its wild tendencies. Edited September 30, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oracle Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 As Wiki says:Shooting-brake, shooting brake or shooting break, originated as an early 19th century British term for a vehicle used to carry shooting parties with their equipment and game. The term brake[1] was initially a chassis used to break-in horses — and was subsequently used to describe a motorized vehicle.However, by 1939 in the UK the term 'Station Wagon' was being preferred since they were originally intended to carry guests to and from the station and hotels, especially those hotels that were owned by the railway companies. Also that year Martin Walter of Folkestone, long-pstanding coachbuilders and bodywork company, offered their take on the brake as it were with their Bedford van-based Utelicon which was a windowed van with seats that could be converted to a commercial vehicle by their removal or folding-down. During the war Ford station wagons or wagons, imported from the US and Canada, began to be used as passenger cars, convertible vehicles or purely van-types. Post-war the woodie 'brake' almost died-out in the UK by the mid-1950s in favour of all-steel types, that began to be named as 'Estate Cars' as landowners used to take shooting parties around their estates in that type of vehicle...which brings us full-circle! The last woodie wagons or 'Travellers' were built by Morris Motors in 1971. In their time Morris Minor Travellers were also used as commercial vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I think it is amazing that such a big discussion and controversy can be caused by such a small car...West, I would guess it will be a while before you publish any "Shooting Break" or "Shooting Brake" photos again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Mercedes is set to introduce a Shooting Break in its 2014 lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 I tend to agree that the term "shooting break" (or brake as Mercedes wants to spell it) should be reserved for wooden-bodied wagons. Otherwise, estate wagon is more proper. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I think Mercedes will find using the label "shooting break" will not resonate with American customers and I am surprised they are even going to try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) According to Oxford English Dictionary on-line, 2011:Brake: 1. A large carriage-frame (having two or four wheels) with no body, used for breaking in young horses. 1831 J. C. Loudon Encycl. Agric. (ed. 2) 1002 The training of coach-horses commences with‥driving in a brake or four-wheeled frame. 1865 Derby Mercury 1 Mar., A horse-breaker's drag, or brake, with two horses harnessed to it. Etymology uncertain. Oxford English Dictionary Online, Oxford University Press 2011.Wiki suggests: Shooting-brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaCheck -out the paragraph "Etymology and examples"I offer no defense of modern car companies trying to use the term for certain "boutique" models of cargo hauler... :mad:I would side with the crowd that believes that shooting-brakes (breaks) are limited to wood-bodied wagons, variations on the Station or Estate Wagon.As to whether to call it a "break" or "brake", I think that is more a question of linguistics and what demographic you are speaking / writing to. Since the vehicle body type seems to be a British / European contrivance, personally I would lean towards using the traditional British spelling.I'm not so sure that I would carry that so far as to referring to West's Bantam as having a "carter" as opposed to a "crankcase" though... ( seems like another automotive term subject to some liberties, similar to "roadster", "coupe`", "limousine".... ) Edited September 30, 2011 by De Soto Frank (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oracle Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 The word 'Mini' in relation to cars, i.e. 'mini', 'supermini'...in connection with car sizes would seem to date back to the 1959 Austin 7 and Morris-Mini-Minor, aka Mini. However I found a reference in a British 1939 article by an engineer of the time with details of his 'Mini Motor', a three-cylinder small car, 20 years beforehand! Interestingly when the Mini had a van version in 1962 there was also a stuck-on-wood version termed the 'Traveller', and then an all-steel version which was an 'Estate'. The Austin 7 Mini just adopted the name of its illustrious predecessor the Austin Seven (7HP), which American Bantam took on of course pre-war. There were Austin 7 vans but I don't know of any factory shooting brakes (or breaks!). Today, Peugeot refuse to admit that their 309SW estate car has initials that stand for 'Station Wagon'!OTT it seems that although N America spells the colour 'grey' as 'gray', the for example GM Flint foundry was the Grey Iron Foundry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Oracle Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 ( seems like another automotive term subject to some liberties, similar to "roadster", "coupe`", "limousine".... ) and brougham, landau, cabriolet, sedan, coach... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 OTT it seems that although N America spells the colour 'grey' as 'gray', the for example GM Flint foundry was the Grey Iron Foundry.North America also spells color without the "u". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Well, since Oxford is the Gold Standard, I guess I'll continue to lean in their direction. In a similar vein, sheet metal workers will bend or "break" the material they're using in, guess what, a sheet metal brake. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) I say!!! When his Lordship and I used to have a go at a brace of quail we would be driven to the heath in his shooting braque. When we sailed we would use his barque. Usually had a jolly good time of it.................. Edited September 30, 2011 by Bhigdog (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldcarfudd Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Call it a depot hack and move on!Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalef62 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Call it a Station wagon or a SUV!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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