This may be of interest to a collector who's car was damaged

[R Walling]

http://autoepi.org/uploads/Cassella_v_Lenches_CT_12_10_Decision_Full_Repairs_IDV.pdf

[Barry Wolk]

I had a similar, but quickly resolved, problem with Hagerty. When my Porsche was smashed in the trailer they only wanted to pay for painting half the car. Since the car had no break lines to paint to, like the Corvette, and the fact that they would have had to shoot clear coat over the repainted section with no guarantee that the primers and paint wouldn't negatively interact, they ceeded and paid to have the whole car painted.

[Guest Klayfish]

Hopefully this won't go into an insurance bashing thread quickly. Without knowing specifics of that case, it's hard to really say if that was a "fair" judgment or not. I work in the auto insurance claims business, have for quite a while. With most newer cars, this isn't an issue. Cars, even new Corvettes, don't get fully repainted when they're in an accident. Collector cars are a whole different story. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the cars are unique, have a documented "history" or things like that.

In this case, I'm guessing he filed damages through the other drivers' insurance, which was a personal lines carrier. Generally, collector car companies are a lot less likely to argue as much on these things than a personal lines carrier. They are much more in tune with the collector car industry and have a better handle on repairing them. Doesn't mean that they'll just give anything the owner or shop wants, but they're more flexible even when they think they're right. My personal recommendation would be if your collector car gets damaged, let your carrier handle it (except for diminished value, which a lot of policies don't cover) and let them go after the other persons' insurance.

[R Walling]

Klayfish, Being in the in the auto insurance claims business, I'm sure you know that a blended repair is not a correct repair. At the bare min., the paint may be blended and than the entire panel must be clear coated with all of the mouldings and chrome removed.

As many panels are not broken at a seam, there are times that the rear body panel, quarter panels, roof and rockers must be recoated with clear.

You also know that this is for Base coat/Clear coat finishes only.

You also know that the overall condition will usually show that it is 1/2 repainted.

You also know that older paint formulars can not be perfectly matched with todays newer pigments.

You also know that painting just one or two panels on a aged car most likely will not put the car in previous loss condition.

You also know that insurance companys do not repair and paint cars, that is left to professionals in the trade, so your last statement " let your carrier handle it" is self centered.

Insurance companies ONLY pay for the repairs as billed by the shop, per the insurance contracts with the at fault party. (third party claims)

Why would anyone allow the person who caused the damages, (or his agent) determine the repair process and/or the amount or the damages in dollars?

[Amphicar BUYER]

Just as a head up.. It's better to put a short explanation of what the link goes to and that it's safe to do so. I have seen instances where just a link was listed and it was a virus. The message didn't even come from the person listed as their email was hijacked.

So please never just post a link or click on any link that has no info attached to it....

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming already in progress.

[Guest Klayfish]

Roger,

You also know that you need to get over yourself, right?

I don't ever recall making specific judgments on how a classic car should be painted.

When I said "let your carrier handle it", I was referring to filing the claim through your own specialty insurance carrier. I don't remember saying that the insurance adjuster will spray paint your car. So I don't see where it's "self centered". I simply meant a classic car insurance adjuster/appraiser understands classic cars better than most.

Not sure what you mean by insurance contracts with the at fault party? If I cause damage to your car, you don't have a "contract" with my insurance company. Their contract is with me.

Also not sure what you mean when you question letting the person who caused the damages (or his agent) determine the repair process. I'm guessing maybe you mean their insurance company. Most people when they are in an accident, and are not liable, file the claim through the carrier of the person who caused the accident. You certainly don't have to, but most people do. That insurance company has adjusters and appraisers to work with the shop regarding repairs. Of course the insurance company doesn't do the repairs, that's up to the body shop.

So at the end of the day, not sure why you got your underwear all in a twist. I never said a classic car should be painted half a$$, or made any statements about the process and procedures for repairing an antique. As a matter of fact, I was advocating filing a claim with your own classic car insurance carrier, who understands classic cars better than your big name personal lines insurance companies. It has nothing to do with the insurance company doing the actual repairs, as you accused me of saying. It has to do with the fact that you are less likely to be in a situation like the original post outlined. The State Farms, Nationwides, Progressives of the world may not understand why they need to repair a classic differently than a new car, which leads to these bad situations.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Klayfish (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

Gentlemen, please remember our rules here on the forum. Our moderators are getting concerned over this thread as I am. There is an important message in this thread about working with your insurance carrier to get a repair that is right for your vehicle. There probably is a message here that specialty carriers may be more familiar with what it takes to repair a collector car appropriately.

The nature of my job is that I hear lots and lots of stories about claims. The VAST majority of them involving the major specialty insurance companies are positive. In fact many of them show the company will go over and beyond the call of duty.

Yes, I have also heard a few that have gone the other way but again, they are the exception.

[R Walling]

Steve, I default to your judgment. Thank you.

[Guest Dick Whittington]

I have been involved, as an appraiser, in several cases like the one quoted. Most of the time the cases were quickly resolved when proper documentation was presented. 99% of the insurance companies are very reasonable.

[trimacar]

I don't know how it is now, but I do remember when I worked at a well known restoration shop in Virginia, that there were cars coming in insured by a large and well known agency, being careful here but let's say there were two initials that started the company name.

If a car was damaged, as I well remember a 1928 Chevrolet with a fabric top was, the car would come into the shop, be fixed, and the X.X. whatever company paid the restoration shop, no questions asked.

If I ever have a claim, and I do have numerous cars insured right now with that company, then that's the route I'll go, bring it to a restoration shop, and let the insurance company deal with them.....maybe I'm dreaming, but that's the easy way to do it...

[Joe Block]

I froze my block and it cracked , and the insurance would not pay, as they have a clause they don't cover damage cause by changes in temperature. That was a screw job.

They told me they pay until I send in the repair estimate, then they came up with an out. same carrier that did want to paint the whole car.

[Restorer32]

We have never had a problem being fairly compensated by insurance companies to properly repair an insured collector car. Few people realize that if your car is damager the adjuster who shows up to estimate the repairs will more than likely have little if any experience with collector cars, regardless of the insurance carrier. Specialty insurers outsource their adjustment work the same as non- specialty carriers. The adjuster may need a bit of "education" as to the rarity and cost of parts, or the cost of replating etc but once they understand the situation there are generally no problems. Where the problems arise is when the car owner sees a minor accident as his big chance to repair every little shortcoming on the car, regardless of how or when it happened.

[Matt Harwood]

I think what Klayfish was getting at is that it's usually better to let your own specialty collector car insurance company pay the claim (you do have collector car insurance, not Allstate or some other common carrier on your antique cars, right?). Your collector car insurance company will then work with the other party's insurance company to subrogate the claim. This is done routinely in the industry and it is often smart to work with your own insurance company, who has keeping you happy as one of their interests as well as a far better understanding of collector car values and how proper repairs are done on such cars.

Going after someone else's common carrier will result in a headache like the one described in the PDF linked above. Even if you ultimately win, it's a long fight with no guarantees. Better to let your own insurance fix the car the way you want it fixed at the shop you choose than to fight with a big corporation whose only interest is in not paying your claim.

In addition, this will have exactly zero effect on your rates, and your own insurance company will support this decision because they know that they'll get their money back from the other party's carrier. It's just not worth the headaches to pursue the other party's insurance, even if the principle of the thing is a noble one.

I'm sure that's what Klayfish was getting at here, and he certainly wasn't being an apologist for the insurance companies. But as anyone who has dealt with a company like Hagerty will attest, such as Barry above, the collector car insurance companies will make your car right with a lot less fighting than AllstateFarmProgressCo.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Matt Harwood
typo (see edit history)

[ted sweet]

why u think insurance covers engine damage?

[Barry Wolk]

I'm glad you said it first.

[Guest Dick Whittington]

why u think insurance covers engine damage?

I do not think that any policy covers operator omissions

[Amphicar BUYER]

So I can get insurance to cover my own mistakes (like not having anti-freeze in my cooling system, for example) WOW! That is a great policy!

I think it's always better to have a specialty ins. company handle the speciality cars. Chances are better that they won't be surprised at a $1400 windshield or a $5000 hood ornament whereas your typical "15 minute" company will try to order you something from J.C. Whitney.

[Guest Klayfish]

First, I apologize if my last post wasn't the most polite. I intended my post as a helpful hint. No hard feelings Roger. Wasn't trying in the least to be self centered, just trying to give perspective from an industry insider.

Yes, Matt hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what I was saying.

And Amphicar BUYER, yes, actually your coverage will cover some owner/user mistakes. Perfect example...putting unleaded gasoline in a diesel engine. Or vice versa. Happens more than you'd think. Not all that long ago, I totalled out a brand spaking new 2011 Audi Q7 diesel because the owner put gasoline in it. :eek: As you can imagine, the unleaded gas caused havoc everywhere, destroying a boatload of extemely, extremely expensive parts. True story.

[buick man]

Well I just want everyone to know that I have a degree in insurancitology and not to confuse that with scientology tho both are closely related. I just also want to make sure all you guys realize that insurance companies as a general rule do not insure for any loose nuts behind the wheel.

Edited October 6, 2011 by buick man (see edit history)

[Lebowski]

I'd like to hear from the owner of one of the dozens of cars that were damaged at the Russo & Steele auction a couple of years ago in Scottsdale to see if they were compensated to their satisfaction....

Edited October 6, 2011 by Lebowski (see edit history)

[ted sweet]

many of those cars had no insurance coverage

[R Walling]

many of those cars had no insurance coverage

Did the auction's insurance cover them?

[Guest Klayfish]

Holy smokes! What happened to those cars? I didn't hear about that.

If Russo and Steele had "possession" of those cars (i.e. they had the keys and were in control of the car), then yes they should have insurance for it. It's called Garagekeepers insurance. It's insurance designed for bodyshops, mechanics, dealers, valets, etc...who take possession of a customers' car.

[stealthbob]

Here is a link to the story:

Russo and Steele car auction estimates $1.5M in damage