1941 Buick SSE Starting Problems: Part Deux

[Guest Tim Romans]

Hello again everyone!

After a summer of trying to fix the starting problems on my 41' I'm back at square one, or less than square one for the time being.

So, I hooked up a starter button in an attempt to bypass the vacuum switch I thought was the problem. Took it out for a drive for 2 miles, parked it back in the garage, shut it off and same thing: The car refused to start until it cooled off for a few hours.

I then replaced the wires on the solenoid relay as they were frayed. Same thing, drive it for a couple miles, shut it off and...nothing.

So, I finally pulled the starter off the car and took it downtown to a pretty reputable place. Turned out the solenoid and the relay was bad as was the spring in the overrunning clutch on the starter. The shop retrofitted a newer generic 6V solenoid onto the starter. I brought it home mounted it on the car and began hooking up the wires and encountered a small problem. Whereas the old solenoid relay had two posts (one for a generator wire and the other for the vacuum starter switch) this one has a post and another small inverted bolt that could almost be a post. I hooked up one of the wires to the inverted, almost post and one to the post, tried to start the car and nothing, not even a click from the solenoid. I tried the wires the other way, same thing. I tried both wires on the "actual" post and same thing. Each time I press the pedal down, I do notice that the ammeter gauge bobs down to zero, but the gas gauge is registering when I turn the switch on.

Now I'm stumped...again! I can't figure out what I did wrong here. I believe I have everything hooked up right and yes, brand new battery, brand new 00 gauge cables, clean as a whistle. Sorry for the dramatic saga, but I really appreciate any help/advice you all can provide!

Tim

[Guest Grant Magrath]

Hi Tim.

I'd call the place that fixed your starter and have a talk about it if I were you. One might be a ground. They should be able to tell you.

Cheers

Grant

[Joseph P. Indusi]

For anyone to provide assitance to you it will be necessary for us to use the correct terminology so we know just what part we are talking about.

The solenoid is mounted on top of the starter and does two things when it receives +6 volts, on the small terminal, from the starting circuit:

1. It connnects the heavy positive cable from the battery to the starter motor by slamming a heavy copper disk between the terminal +6 volts from the battery cable to the terminal connected to the starter motor.

2. Moves the starter gear forward to engage the teeth on the flywheel.

The solenoid relay supplies +6 volts to the solenoid small terminal to activate the starter motor as described above. This relay has two components inside:

1. A coil and flat armature connnected to a set of points.

2. The point set that comes together when the coil is energized. When the points close, +6 volts goes to the solenoid.

The solenoid relay actually has 4 terminals on it but they may not all be obvious.

For the coil section, one terminal must go to ground, usually to the ARM terminal on the generator since the ARM terminal is at ground potential (-6 volts) when the engine is NOT running. The other coil terminal goes to the carburetor mounted starter switch or a bypass switch if used. For the points in the solenoid relay, one terminal goes to the small terminal on the solenoid. The other terminal goes to +6 volts.

Evidently the repair shop changed something, but I am not sure if it was the solenoid or the solenoid relay or both. The repair shop will not likely understand how the Buick accelerator actuated starter system operates or is wired. If you can send photos or a diagram of what you have some of us could help get this going.

Joe, BCA 33493

[danhar1960]

As always, a few pics of the unit may help to identify the problem.

Danny

[Guest Tim Romans]

Grant,

I called the shop today and they told me to hook up the "hot" wire leading from the vacuum starter switch to the post on the solenoid and to "tape off" the wire from the generator armature/voltage regulator. Didn't make much sense to me, but what the heck so I did as I was told this evening and still not a thing. Not even a click.

Joe/Danny, thank you for your offers to help. I will pull the starter back off in the next couple of days and snap some photos. You're absolutely correct. Although in business for 40 years, the shop didn't really understand how the pedal actuated system works (well, I barely understand it myself>) It seems to me though that the other wire has to go somewhere to do something. Just for giggles, I tried grounding out the ARM wire and still no luck. Photos forthcoming and thank you all again. If it weren't for folks like you all I would have likely left the hobby long ago out of sheer frustration. Can't get my dad to help out on this one. He's an early Ford guy who has the alibi of "not understanding" how those Buick run ever since I went to the dark side with Buick and Olds. I think he just would like for me to sell it and buy and old Ford sometimes

Cheers!

Tim

Tim

[Joseph P. Indusi]

In the August 2010 issue of the Buick Bugle there is an article on the Buick starting system that I wrote. Here you will see in schematic form the wiring for the accelerator actuated starting system. This is essentially the system you have. The relay is mounted near or on the solenoid. In later models the relay was mounted on the firewall in front of the passenger.

Let's see what you have. Do you have a shop manual for your car?

Joe, BCA 33493

[Guest Grant Magrath]

IIRC, the system gets it's ground from the generator until it starts, so I would imagine it would be kinda useful to keep the generator in the loop, so to speak!

Like Joe says, a shop manual with a good wiring diagram is the way to go. We renewed all our wiring with new stuff from Rhode Island Wiring. It was a dream to do! No issues at all.

Cheers

Grant