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1933 " famous" Marvel Carb ideas/HELP


Guest outlaw car man

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Guest outlaw car man

Working on getting my green 1933 90 running properly.

1) Engine was rebuilt 20 some years ago- I've had it running for about 1/2 hour in drive, at different times

2) The Marvel was taken off, rebuilt and test run on another 90, seemed to run great

3) The jets were inspected and repaired where necessary

4) Car runs real smooth at a bit higher idle with hand throttle

5) get a little hesitation when power is fed but runs OK

6) To move the car in first gear, when power is applied it starts to die with demand.

7) no gas leak from the Marvel ( amazing )

8) been chasing the large air adjusting screw, can get it to idle pretty good, has good rpms sitting static, then as above wants to die when asked to move the car

I know I'm going to have to take it off ( again) but any thoughts you might have about this would be appreciated. ( help )

Thanks,

Sandy Jones

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Guest outlaw car man

Choke out to start, choke in to run, throttle advanced a bit to keep running. This is where the air valve comes into play. I can tap the manual throttle linkage down a bit while turning the air valve to adjust idle. I can get a pretty good idle this way, but when the accelerator in advanced, it chokes and almost dies.

Also I've timed it twice and double checked that side.

I'm still thinking the jets maybe fouling / plugged again after I test fired it on my other 90. This is a new rebuilt engine with probably 4 runs in the driveway at 10 minutes each or so.

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Guest outlaw car man

Air screw is pretty much even with the top of the rachet spring ( keeper) as per the Marvel guide book. I have set the float too, as required.

I move the brass air screw about 18 notches, as I remember counter-clockwies to increase idle. I can get it to idle fairly smooth, untill demand on it. Mark Shaw had said to check jets, this would be the third time, has to be a final solution, can't keep pulling the Marvel off everytime to run. Nuts.

I'm listening, and frustrated.

Can't be just me & my 33 Marvel .

Can you post a couple of pics of the carb and assembly? It will be easier to describe what you might need to do. I especially want a close up of your air valve assembly and where you have it adjusted to.

TX.

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Sandy, do you have the little wheel adjustment on the bottom of your carb?

Otherwise I think that you have debris in one or both of you long tube nozzles. On the right of your carb pic I would run soft piano wire through all of them and blow them out. I had debris in mine and had a hard time of finding the problem. It does not take much. Make sure your bowl is spotless before assembly. I also would leave the air valve even with the adjustment arm. You should only have to move it three or four notches to get it to run right. With it even, I would run the car for a mile or two and then make a two notch adjustment if you feel it is not running right.

Also, check the heat riser to make sure the ends are tight/sealed and there are no rust thru in the pipe.

Hope that this gives you some ideas. But I think that you are having a debris problem like I did. Today's gas is terrible and only lasts a couple of months before it starts to gum up everything.

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Sandy,

How about coming at this from another direction.

You say this carby worked well on your other car. The other cars carby presumably works well so to establish it is a carby fault ( not obscure air leak, vacuum problem etc ) how about trying your tried and reliable carby from your running car on the new motor.

If the new motor performs well with the old carby you have definately established the new carby as the culprit, but if it runs the same with both carbys you can then rule out the carby as the problem and look for another cause.

I know it's a pain in the a** swapping carbys around but it may save some frustration if you can rule out a carby fault.

Edited by 50jetback (see edit history)
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Guest outlaw car man

Thanks for the thoughts-

1) no wheel, I'm seeing the same thinking, take it off and go after the jets AGAIN.

2) Damnit, I was hoping nobody would support the thought of swaping the carbs again. I really hate taking one off that's running so good, may have no choice

Take the one off the green 90, clean etc, re-install, and see what happens- No improvement, swap Marvels.

You know that's just part of the old car deal.

It's pretty obvious, what has to be done, just hoping for a magic wand from somebody.

Appreciate the comments-

will keep you posted from time to time,

Sandy

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There may be NOTHING wrong other than the engine is freshly rebuilt!

On a much later (mid 1960's) muscle car with tachometer and a complete rebuild, I observed the following:

(1) start-up - decent idle at 900 RPM in neutral

(2) after 250 miles - decent idle at 800 RPM in neutral

(3) after 500 miles - good idle in drive at 650 RPM

(4) after 1000 miles - excellent idle in drive at 550 RPM regardless of ambient temperature. Of course this was BE (before ethanol).

No modifications were made to anything other than readjusting the mixture (leaner each time) and the idle RPM. The parts in a new engine need to get to know each other.

Jon.

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Sandy,

I believe the magic wand is the air valve spring. All my Marvel carbs have springs like the one below. If you have a straight spring, it is probably from a hardware store and not a Marvel carb part.

Mark - with absolutely no disrespect intended.

Marvel used approximately 30 different air valve springs on various model carburetors. Many of them are straight. The ones with the "bump" in the middle have different configuration bumps, but all resemble each other. Unless you lay them side by side many enthusiasts would not know the difference. A number of different sizes of music wire were used.

Most (and I believe all of the Buicks) springs have a free length of 1.5 inches. Some other springs (Pontiac and others) have a free length of 1 inch.

What is important is that each carburetor by identification number should have the correct spring for that carburetor. Switching springs from different carburetors (unless one has the Marvel parts listings, and know the springs are the same) is NOT a good idea.

Jon.

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Guest outlaw car man
There may be NOTHING wrong other than the engine is freshly rebuilt!

Hi Jon, thanks, know exactly what you mean with a fresh engine, everything needs to break-in together.

My main issue is lack of acceleration on demand. If it were another carburetor, I'd point my finger at the accelerator pump, I've had that issue on other carbs with the alcohol destroying the " leather" plunger on the end.

If I'm thinking correctly, the low speed nozzle works at idle, the intermediate speed for next demand, the the high speed standpipe beyond that.

If I give it gas the intermediate should kick in, in conjunction with the low speed nozzle. So, it may be back to the previous writings here, gunk in the jets, possibly from evaporation of the alcohol while static.

Mark, I have three Marvels from 1933, all the springs are the same, they are straight. That had crossed my mind too, but my black 90 is original and a good standard to go by. Good thought. I think your posting from a month or so ago, is the magic wand,clean & inspect the jets.

Thanks to all here ( again ) with my ongoing Marvel problems. I'll close here till I get off my kiester and pull the carb. Will check the heat riser too, another good suggestion,

Thanks.

Sandy

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Jon,

No disrespect taken. I am no expert on Marvel carbs., I just know that my 24 & 29 Buicks would not work correctly because they originally had the wrong air springs.

I am glad to learn that not all Marvel springs have the bump in the middle.

Thanks,

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Mark - to my knowledge, there is not a complete chart available.

Marvel published a booklet in 1932 entitled "How to Overhaul a Marvel Carburetor" which contained a chart of most carburetors produced from 1928 through 1932. Air valve springs for these models are a part of the chart.

The only way to do a complete chart would be to go through the myriad of Marvel books (I probably have 75 or so different, maybe more), make a listing of all of the carbs (well, since I have this information in my database, I could get this listing fairly easily); then write down the air valve spring used for each (this information not in my database), and pull one of each from my parts bins. Doing this project would require a LOT of time.

Since we, as you, feel the air valve spring is the key to making any Marvel work as well as possible (we will agree to disagree on how well that is ;) ); we reproduced each of them to place in our rebuilding kits. So the springs, albeit with kit only, are readily available.

Jon.

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Could be a vacumm leak, or sticky valves that are tight in the guides. It would only take one or two sticky intakes to make the engine loose power at a higher RPM. Also, Look carefully for intake manifold leaks. As mentioned above, the leak could be hidden in the heat riser. An undetected hairline crack somewhere will expand rather quickly as the manifold heats up. Have you shorted the plugs with a screw driver to be sure that you hear a change in the engine? This is to be sure that every cylinder is firing. It can be hard to hear a skip in an 8 cylinder. Dandy Dave!

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Guest outlaw car man

So far-

checked spark advance, gasket sizes, wires, and other misc suggested things that I could at this point

1) took the carb off the green one, some mild gunk was built up, main thing was one of the ears was broke off the float support and had been JB Welded on. Wonderful.

2) Took the carb off the black 90 and it had more gunk, varnish, crap then I've ever seen before in a carburetor. The low speed jet completely plugged, others about the same.

I drive it about twice a month, enought to at least get the plugs hot.

Until I get the " ear " issue solved, I can't continue with the Marvel on the green 90.

The black one should be ready to roll.

I'm really thinking this is a heat vs ethanol evaporation issue. The stuff in the black 90 was VERY substantial and I've had this before, but nowhere as bad.

We've had a lot of hot weather this season, cars sit in a garage that probably hits 110.

May sound stupid, but I might leave the carb off the car till we get out of this heat wave. If I put it on the car I know I'll fire it up.

That's it so far,

Thanks for all the great feedback, helped a lot. Good forum.

Sandy

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Sandy,

One thing is certain... Ethanol does a good job of cleaning all the crap out of old fuel systems and dumps it into carbs...

I suggest you just shut off the gas to the carb and let her run out of gas. This should do the same thing as removing the carb. with less trouble.

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. Ethanol does a good job of cleaning all the crap out of old fuel systems and dumps it into carbs...

ETHANOL IN YOUR FUEL!!!!!

There is a growing trend in Australia to introduce ethanol into our fuel but it is not widely accepted due to damage it is causing to the fuel systems on older vehicles.

Australia wide the old car movement avoids any fuel with ethanol, even though it is cheaper where available. The troubles start as far back as the steel fuel tanks which rust out if fuel is left standing in them for any period ( alright for modern cars with plastic tanks! ) and there are frequently news items about older motors being destroyed by the use of fuel containing ethanol.

Here fuel containing ethanol is to be avoided at all cost.

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Guest outlaw car man

Hadn't considered that, does take a lot of cranking to bring gas back in. I was thinking high octane fuel, like avgas ?

I;ve been fighting the ethanol issue for many, many years in Colorado, eats fuel pumps too unless you have the upgraded internals.

Yes I always us Stabil in the gas, learned the hard way about that years ago.

Maybe should move to the land down under !

I still maybe fighting another battle with the green 90, besides just the buildup in the Marvel. We'll see.

Another concern, is what's going on in the fuel tank, basically a large float bowl.

Is there any reason an updraft carburetor would be diffent then the downdraft , with this problem.

I can't be an isolated case with my 33 Marvel ? Crazy .

Off to it guys, thanks again for the comments.

Sandy

I suggest you just shut off the gas to the carb and let her run out of gas. This should do the same thing as removing the carb. with less trouble.

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  • 1 month later...

I have read all the comments about the Marvel carburetors with great interest. There has been some good advice given, however, please allow one more thought. I have three Buicks

that are all 6-cylinder models with Marvel units on them. I have a 1916, 1920, and a 1922. I used to cuss and despise these Marvel units. Nothing but pieces of junk I thought. Well,

let me tell you what happened to change my mind. I found out

about the boys at Classic Carburetors down in Phoenix. I sent the unit off the 1920 down first. About three months later I get it back and the thing looks like it just came out of the box at Flint. I get it back on the car and the second turn of the crank has the engine running so smooth it is almost unbelievable. The guys down there made it a special point to ask if I was going to run the original vacuum tank system. Yes, I am. The needle and seat is specific for the vacuum tank application.

They also flow tested the unit on their engine. The carburetor was 'dialed in' to run perfectly when I put it back on my engine. And it does! I consider myself to be a pretty fair mechanic, but, there are some things that I am not an expert

at and I leave them to the professionals. I do not cut my own

hair and I do not work on my own teeth - I pay people to do these things for me and get excellent results that way. Marvel Carburetors and Stewart Vacuum Tanks are two of the things that I will not even consider taking on. I am not real sure when the Buick engines went to the mechanical fuel pumps, but, I would just about bet that the innards of the carburetors changed when this happened. Just something to think about.

I'm pretty happy with the way the cars run since the units have been properly rebuilt/restored. And one more thing - I stay clear away from any fuel that has alcohol in it. I also dump about a teacup full of Marvel Mystery Oil into the gasoline tank

whenever I add fuel to the tank. Great upper cylinder lubricant.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

terrywiegand@prodigy.net

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Guest jules greenway

Spare a thought for us chaps on this side of the pond-all our fuel has ethanol in so we have no choice!! It's an absolute pain!!

cheers

Jules

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Guest outlaw car man

Hey Mark-

All the cars sit in my garage and I run them, or fire them up at least every two weeks. One issue, I think, is it's been real hot this year, as most well know. My garage can get up to 110 or so in the summer AND I'm at 5200 feet elevation.

Both those are a perfect formula for evaporation of ethanol ( alcohol ).

Then add the fact that some parts just sit in the ethanol gas, really causes problems. Throw in vapor locking to at my elevation too.

Another self induced issue may be that I don't get the Buicks , in the 95 + heat, running up to speed and for a good amount of time. This could add to fouled plugs causing the backfiring. I'm heading to that direction now and the other great comments I've gotten here. I believe the Marvel on the B-90 is clean, as is the fuel pump. ( I hope anyway )

The G-90 , with it's problem of not ramping up, I 'm sure, is a problem I found in the fuel pump. Backfiring too. I wasn't getting any fuel to the carb and it stopped dead in the drive. Pulled the FP off, and opened it up. I had rebuilt it probably 2 years ago. Ethanol ? Nope, not this time, the brass fitting on the inlet was a solid brass fitting with a large pin hole for an opening. ??? Why have no idea, came that way, never had taken it off. The car had gone through a messy restoration 20 years ago and I've spent 4 years finding these surprises- Long story not needed here.

Also, I' ve been told, that States or regions all have different formulas for the amount of ethanol in the gas. I'm pretty sure it's close to a Martini in Colorado !

I think I'm gaining on my ongoing 1933 Marvel issues.

Again, thanks for all the good advice, from all . Great learning curve for me with the 33 Buicks.

Sandy

The February 2011 issue of Skinned Knuckles has a great article on ethanol in modern fuel.

If your car just sat in the garage for more than three months, this could be your problem.

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You might try putting together a pony tank like I did to try my 12 roadster. I just used bailing wire to hang a lawn mower tank high on the firewall to feed the carb. This way, you can try some fresh gas and eliminage any issues with fuel delivery to the carb.

It will narrow it down to issues with the fuel, fuel delivery, or the carb.

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Guest outlaw car man

Got so many posts I forget where I was here-

I got the B-90 purrrring, idles real smooth. I pulled the plugs and cleaned them, one was fairly bad, I think 4th in from the front. Car fires up nicely now, However it still backfires after I ramp it up to high RPMS and let off on the gas immediatly, pop. The adjustment of the air valve will increase the POP or decrease it BUT not go away.

( backfiring in the exhaust )

Heading to the dist & timing next. It appears the points, condenser are all fairly new. Couldn't see anything wrong. I'll check the spring and things next.

I feel it's loading up, which should be an air valve adjustment I think. Blows a lot of exhaust smell in the garage area too, unburned fuel , running to rich I think.

G-90 seems to be running pretty good, it's breaking in I think. I have not got it on the road yet. One thing I've noticed from the B-90, this one, the intake manifold seems to heat up pretty good as with the heat riser. The B-90 doesn't seem to do this. I mean so hot you can't touch it after 5 minutes of running. Temp shows about 150 on the gauge.

Comments about this ?

At least we are getting somewhere, it's only a piece of machinery.

Loads of fun too.

Sandy

You might try putting together a pony tank like I did to try my 12 roadster. I just used bailing wire to hang a lawn mower tank high on the firewall to feed the carb. This way, you can try some fresh gas and eliminage any issues with fuel delivery to the carb.

It will narrow it down to issues with the fuel, fuel delivery, or the carb.

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Guest outlaw car man

Exactly, that's what Bob Engle was saying too, check the weights & springs.

That was my next approach to this.

Not quit sure what I'll be looking for, but have it diagramed in my owners manual and this forum of course.

Way back when, I had the same problem with my Dodge DL 6 Touring Sedan- all came down to timing.

I'm concerned if it's anything to do with the vacuum, as I know squat about that, but willing to learn.

Thanks again,

Sandy

OCM

Just a thought - you might want to check the weights in the distributor. Timing is everything, and if they are sticking, it'll run hotter than a biscuit. No power also.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

terrywiegand@prodigy.net

Phone - (620) 665-7672

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Hi Sandy: I'd check that fouled plug again. Youmay have a valve sticking blowing gasses back into the intake or exhaust.

Vacuum gauge check is fairly simple, gauge should show a steady vacuum. If the needle is jumping You most likely have a cylinder problem. Adjust the timeing for maximum vacuum. Adjust carb for maximum vacuum. When you hit the gas, vacuum should drop and then climb as advance comes in on the distributor. When idling, if you squirt oil on intake gaskets and and fittings and vacuum increases, you've got a vacuum leak.

Bob

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Guest outlaw car man

Bob,

That's a good thought, I was kinda thinking something has to be related to the one plug. I had the same sort of situation with my 1933 Pontiac with the straight 8.

However it was an exhaust valve. Took a board and rubber mallet to it ( tapped ) and she worked great after that.

Since it fires up straight away and runs perfect, I've rather not get into the timing and weights & springs unless I have to. ( break it to fix it ).

Guessing #4 plug is the dirty plug, can follow it to the dist and make double sure I'm getting fire to it. I recently cleaned all the plugs, and have run it pretty good, so any indication of a fouled plug and valve sticking.

The Wizard has been unhooked and the hole plugged. Manual shows the use of a vacuum gauge, so a trip to the auto store may be needed. Should have one anyway.

So much to do before winter hits the high country.

Will keep you posted. Lots of good information here.

Thanks,

Sandy

Hi Sandy: I'd check that fouled plug again. Youmay have a valve sticking blowing gasses back into the intake or exhaust.

Vacuum gauge check is fairly simple, gauge should show a steady vacuum. If the needle is jumping You most likely have a cylinder problem. Adjust the timeing for maximum vacuum. Adjust carb for maximum vacuum. When you hit the gas, vacuum should drop and then climb as advance comes in on the distributor. When idling, if you squirt oil on intake gaskets and and fittings and vacuum increases, you've got a vacuum leak.

Bob

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Guest outlaw car man

Here's where I'm at-

1) timed it, starts great, runs smooth

2) checked the springs & weights, look new

3) pulled the plugs, all look clean, 3-4-5 had a small bit of carbon. Cleaned again, gapped , installed

4) checked points, set at 020, everything looked newer

5) checked plug wires, coinnections

6) idles great

backfires after ramping up !!!

Going back to the Marvel again today. If that doesn't work, getting a vacuum gauge and heading there.

If I find gum and crap in the Marvel, I'll send some digitals of what it looks like.

We are running into cooler weather, might help with evaporation.

BTW, I've got two posts going on this, have sorta blended the problems together

sorry about that.

Sandy

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Guest outlaw car man

Back to square one- pulled the Marvel off, the jets were gummed up !!! I mean one low speed jet was completely plugged, one intermediate one the same and the tips of the rest had some visual gum-crap on them.

Basic carb looked OK inside, mainly the jets again. One problem I can see is the low speed jets have a little tiny concave end on them where just a drop of gas will sit there. Back this whole loooooooooooooong thread, the drop of ethanol ladden gas sits in the tiny area and evaporates, plugging the pin size whole.

To be honest, I don't know what the the answer is here other then removing the carb and rotating it with my spare every couple months.

Have not cleaned and reinstalled the Marvel yet, but I'd bet a dollar to a donut it will run perfect again.

Appreciate all the time you guys spent on this problem. Maybe we learned something here with all the ideas tossed around. That's why we have the club here. I certainly learned some stuff, always do.

Anyone have a 33 Marvel issue, ask away, I've got a lot of hours on them now, but that's not necessarily a good thing. HHHAAAHA

Included is what the low speed jet looked like at removale.

Thanks AGAIN,

Best,

Sandy Jones

Outlaw Car Man

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Guest outlaw car man

results:

I removed and cleaned the Marvel AGAIN. Reinstalled and it runs better then ever.

My conclusion here, is there is gunk in the fuel system that is being left behind on the tiny Marvel jets. This causes starvation of fuel and backfiring.

What is happening, the ethanol in the gas is cleaning the system, as designed to, and the result is leaving this gunk in the carb. The gas/ethanol is evaporating and gets on the tips of the jets.

I plan on cleaning the system, that should stop most of it I hope. The design of the Marvel is what it is.

One cure, drive it an hour or so a day.

Appreciate all the help here, maybe some can get a tip from all of this and apply it to your car. I sure learned a lot !!!!!

Wonderful site-

Thanks,

Sandy

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Guest outlaw car man

Hey Mark-

A couple guys sent me a site that lists " booze " free gas stations. The closest to me is about 35-40 miles away, an airport. Also someone suggested getting a 50 gallon drum and keepng it on my property.

Both a little drastic maybe. But ???

I'll search for the skinned knuckles article, thanks.

I had this same type of problem, but not as serious, with my 33 Pontiac. It was running the Carter . I then had more of a problem with the ethanol eating or dissolving the parts then.

I don't know what the answer is, I know how I can help the situation, but not solve it. Maybe hot-rod both the 1933 90s and be done with it. Power windows, air, fuel injection........ HA.

Sandy

Sandy,

Glad to see you found the problem. See if you can get a copy of that Skinned Knuckles article I mentioned previously. And find a gas station that still sells real gas at the site below:

Find ethanol free gas near you!

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Guest outlaw car man

Solution ????

Was at a neighborhood picnic yesterday and was chatting with another gearhead friend that lives out here. He was asking about my Buicks, saw me working on them in the drive. He's had many old cars and now driving a 1948 Plymouth that he's had all his life.

We brought up the ethanol problem. He has the same problems as I with the addition of constant vapor locking. At 5200 feet elevation and hots days, vapor locking is real common " up " here, depending on your engine design. My 33 Essex Terraplane 8 and 34 Fords were nortorious for vapor locking.

Alcohol loves to boil at lower temps at high elevations !

His solution to that, was a direct line elec fuel pump ( of course )

His solution, for many years now, was to keep two spare clean carbs on the shelf and switch them around as needed. He said that was the only solution he's found to gummed up fuel systems.

I do have that option. BTW, the B-90 is still running perfect. I'm probably still going to pull the tank. Stack the deck in my favor as they say.

Sandy

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Once everything is clean and you run them dry before winter, you should have no more gumming problems. The solution to vapor lock can be a simple bypass line back to the fuel tank. This will keep cooler fuel circulating to your carb until you heat up the whole tank of fuel rather than just what is in the fuel line.

I know a guy who had a Packard Twin Six that was notorious for vapor lock because the fuel line ran between the manifolds. With the bypass working, it was the only Twin Six that could run during the hot days at the Packard meet.

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Guest outlaw car man

Mark-

I haven't had vapor locking with the 90s, the other guy did with the 48, plus the gumming issue.

Having an updraft carb probably helps, lines come in from the bottom sorta.

Ran the B-90 yesterday, still running great, no backfires so far.

Interesting, the gentleman with anti-Marvel Mystery Oil comment on another post, may have something there. Mike too, with the posting about Sea Foam.

I'm using both products in running the B-90+ Stabil. The G-90 is straight gas with Stabil only. I use a cap full of MMO/5 gal & an oz/whatever it calls for per/gal of Sea Foam, Stabil too in the B-90. ( B=black,G=green, sorry ).

I've got the carb, heat riser, intake manifold and Marvel off the G-90. Carb was completely clean, however I haven't run it a lot, mainly just getting into the engine side of things.

A home experiment when I was having all the problems. Might be the cooler temps not causing evaporation ?? I'm about out of gas on the B-90, will stick in straight premium gas this time, + Stabil. I think the Sea Foam might have been more of a problem then the small amount of MMO. I've used both in the past on other cars , without so much of a problem. The Carter gave me some issues.

My 1954 Hudson Hornet Twin-H had the bypass on it as you posted here. Worked great.

Sandy

Once everything is clean and you run them dry before winter, you should have no more gumming problems. The solution to vapor lock can be a simple bypass line back to the fuel tank. This will keep cooler fuel circulating to your carb until you heat up the whole tank of fuel rather than just what is in the fuel line.

I know a guy who had a Packard Twin Six that was notorious for vapor lock because the fuel line ran between the manifolds. With the bypass working, it was the only Twin Six that could run during the hot days at the Packard meet.

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