Dodge Roadster

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

Hey 1930, sorry about going missing for a while but every now and then work can dictate my movements.

Regarding the questions you were asking when we conversed last,

What happened to all the left over bits from the knock down kits sent to australia? I have wondered this myself. I used to think they must have only ordered what they required, or that the bits got ' recycled '. But im yet to see any evidence of this, example being a 35/ 36 dodge/ plymouth rear tub. I have no idea what else they could be used for. Even the rear doors on a tourer, what else could they be used for? I can only assume they became reusable sheet metal/ scrap. The right hand fender on my dodge has the spare wheel well has been filled in as the spare was mounted on the left. Now that the paint has worn thin and surface rust has attached itself to the panel you can see where the hole was. Remembering the panels for the body were sent as skins and nailed to timber frames, im sure the left overs were only seen as spare sheet stock most of the time.

Warranty? I think the dealer would warrent the vehicle mechanically and the coach builder warranted the body.

I know this complete vehicle embargo started in 1917 and i think it ended around 1944. However i think, although some complete units were imported whole, id say by this time the industry was well enough established to simply continue the practice. By the time the embargo was over GM had already bought Holden and created GMH, or General Motors Holden. A few years ago i owned a 1959 pontiac laurentian. It was actually a 59 chev with pontiac skins and front end. Externally it was a pontiac but internally it was all chev.

Over the weekend i unearthed all the dodge panels in my shed and mocked up my ute. What do you think?

Edited March 7, 2012 by 36 roadster ute (see edit history)

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

The last pic show method of construction. You can see how when these things were left exposed to the elements why the bodies fell off. Often when the wood got soft the body or panels just got ripped off and they became donors or farm hacks.

[Guest 1930]

Thanks for the reply,

I think it looks different thats for sure. That sure is pretty from the doors forward I can say that.

Id have to figure out a better way of making that transformation from the back of the cab to the bed try to see how it would have been done and go that way with it but Im sure you already see that yourself.

Id be carefull taking off, there appears to be a big stump just under the front there.

Try not to make youself more scarce.

[Chrycoman]

Chrysler shipped cowl/chassis units but no body parts. Cowl/chassis units usually had the front end sheet metal - fenders, hood, grille, etc.

The bodies were done by Australian body companies. Chrysler could not send skins for tourers, for example, as Chrysler did not build tourers, or roadsters, after 1932. Also, Chrysler bodies were all steel, with inner and outer panels that were welded together. North American bodies had no frames, wood or steel. Thus all body parts were made in Australia. Which is why Australian bodies were not the same as North American.

After WW II American manufacturers began shipping CKD units with bodies but this was for low production cars and for smaller companies such as Studebaker. Studebaker used to ship Commander sedan CKD units which the Australian assembler would dress up as a Cruiser. Confused many a Studebaker fan until they figured out what was going on.

Using outside sources for bodies was the norm in North America for decades. GM did not get control of Fisher Body until 1926, at which point GM declared that Fisher Body would be building bodies only for GM.

Chrysler had been using Fisher Body, as well as Briggs, Murray, Hayes, Budd, and others. By the early 1940's, Chrysler used Briggs to build bodies for Plymouth and the other makes were done by Chrysler or Briggs. Chrysler purchased Briggs in 1952.

Same with Ford using mainly Briggs and Murray until the 1940's. Nash used Seaman Body (purchased 1936) and then Budd for major stampings, Hudson used Murray and Budd, Kaiser-Fraser used Murray, Studebaker used Budd for their major body stampings but built their own bodies.

Australian import laws encouraged local body suppliers before WW II. Canada was much the same, with auto companies importing chassis frames and large body stampings. In Canada GM used Fisher Body Canada, Ford built their own using US Ford suppliers for large body pieces and Chrysler of Canada built their own when they purchased the Fisher Body plant in Windsor that had been building bodies for Chrysler.

The Pontiac Laurentian was a Canadian model, by the way. It used a Chevrolet body with front and rear sheetmetal with Pontiac designs. No Canadian Pontiac sheetmetal before the mid-1960s interchanged with the US Pontiac. Engines and transmissions were, naturally, Chevrolet. Although US Pontiacs were Wide-Track starting in 1959, the Canadian Pontiacs were not. An easy way to tell them apart.

Bill

Toronto, ON

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

Did Canada have similar open bodied models? We had coupes, roadsters and tourers all be it in small numbers. An example of this is currently available on ebay australia. Its listed as a plymouth coupe. Same body style as US models( looks identical ) but full timber frame. I have also seen some examples of roadsters, full timber frames with nailed on skins. I have tried to get my hands on one for a long time, but im sure you know what i mean when i say that they always seem to pop up when you can least afford or justify to the wife that you need to bring it home. The problem with these is 99.9% of the time they are too expensive or as a 'floppy' body require a lot of dedication to replace all that wood. The ones i have come across were really rotten and need the full treatment, it would be more cost effective to buy an american body and pay the shipping.

I understand about the pontiac being canadian as i know we shared many export body styles. But i was'nt sure as mine had a GMH body tag on the fire wall. This could have been applied upon arrival prior to distribution I suppose.

Early Chrysler Australia information is very hard to confirm due to a fire destroying the records. Im not sure exactly when this happened, Im hoping someone else can fill in the blanks here.

I agree with 1930 about my ute being pretty from the B pillar forward, as this was the reason for me pestering the previous owner for years before he gave it to me. This was a prime example of how sometimes harassment is the key. For about four years after i knew he had it, i would always greet him with " Hi Eric, hows my Dodge?". It all came to fruition when i got a call one day asking " if you still wanted the Dodge, you better come and get it.", as he had to move house after 25 years and could'nt take it with him to the new place.

Originally the rear cab of this particular example was timber with flat sheet metal inserts. I have seen only two other surviving examples of this body option, with one having a full steel section the same as a pickup cab. Which is what i have sourced for the rear of mine inorder to give the cab a better 'flow'.

Other proposed changes are twin spare wheels and a steel frame for the cab. Has anyone used the repair sections produced by srpm street rods? Their steel floor pieces look good although they are expensive considering i have to ship them half way across the world, i think they would make a more robust body. Besides, im not very experienced with wood.

For those who would like to complete their resorce library, a good addition would be two books written by Norm Darwin, called "The History Of Holden since 1917" and "The History Of Ford In Australia". They do appear on ebay from time to time.

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

Coupe on ebay, not tj richards.

[Manuel]

Just last year there was a book published on Australian Chrysler history.

Can't remember the name.

Manuel in Oz

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

Ok, have you seen a copy of this? And is it as informative as Norm's books?

[Guest 1930]

Several months ago there was a post here with a link to a website showing photographs stored on some sort of on-line historical center. Australian bodies, T.J Ricjard conversions, mostly earlier stuff. Hopefully someone here can remind me what site that was.

Its amazing what is being asked for books right now. There are a couple on amazon that I would like to get without re-finanacing the house.

Edited March 8, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

Pure Dodge gold. . . .Ha ha.

Edited March 8, 2012 by 36 roadster ute
one of my most prized possessions, wear it everyday. (see edit history)

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

I know what you mean. My copy of holden history i bought several years ago for about 15-20 dollars if i remember correctly. But a soft cover version i saw on ebay recently was asking $100.00! I think they usually go for around 80-100.

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

I looked for that book Manuel, its called "Great Ideas In Motion" by Gavin Farmer. It covers 1946 through 1981. Is that the one you mean?

I would really like to find information earlier. Does any other Aussies know where to find any records from TJ Richards? Pictures, advertising anything?

[Manuel]

I have not seen a copy of the Aussie Chry book. How much was it 36 Roadster?

Manuel in Oz

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

It was a signed copy at $145.00 from Automoto book shop. Im not sure where they are but you could buy it in their online book shop. Try giving it a google.

[LennyDaVinci]

Just responding to Jason .... The history of T.J.Richards discussion was at http://forums.aaca.org/f143/australian-dodges-history-268816.html

[Guest 1930]

Thank-you Lenny, I had the pictures saved on disk but its nice to be be able to see the thread again for review of information

[Guest 1930]

Chrysler shipped cowl/chassis units but no body parts. Cowl/chassis units usually had the front end sheet metal - fenders, hood, grille, etc.

The bodies were done by Australian body companies. Chrysler could not send skins for tourers, for example, as Chrysler did not build tourers, or roadsters, after 1932. Also, Chrysler bodies were all steel, with inner and outer panels that were welded together. North American bodies had no frames, wood or steel. Thus all body parts were made in Australia. Which is why Australian bodies were not the same as North American.

After WW II American manufacturers began shipping CKD units with bodies but this was for low production cars and for smaller companies such as Studebaker. Studebaker used to ship Commander sedan CKD units which the Australian assembler would dress up as a Cruiser. Confused many a Studebaker fan until they figured out what was going on.

Using outside sources for bodies was the norm in North America for decades. GM did not get control of Fisher Body until 1926, at which point GM declared that Fisher Body would be building bodies only for GM.

Chrysler had been using Fisher Body, as well as Briggs, Murray, Hayes, Budd, and others. By the early 1940's, Chrysler used Briggs to build bodies for Plymouth and the other makes were done by Chrysler or Briggs. Chrysler purchased Briggs in 1952.

Same with Ford using mainly Briggs and Murray until the 1940's. Nash used Seaman Body (purchased 1936) and then Budd for major stampings, Hudson used Murray and Budd, Kaiser-Fraser used Murray, Studebaker used Budd for their major body stampings but built their own bodies.

Australian import laws encouraged local body suppliers before WW II. Canada was much the same, with auto companies importing chassis frames and large body stampings. In Canada GM used Fisher Body Canada, Ford built their own using US Ford suppliers for large body pieces and Chrysler of Canada built their own when they purchased the Fisher Body plant in Windsor that had been building bodies for Chrysler.

The Pontiac Laurentian was a Canadian model, by the way. It used a Chevrolet body with front and rear sheetmetal with Pontiac designs. No Canadian Pontiac sheetmetal before the mid-1960s interchanged with the US Pontiac. Engines and transmissions were, naturally, Chevrolet. Although US Pontiacs were Wide-Track starting in 1959, the Canadian Pontiacs were not. An easy way to tell them apart.

Bill

Toronto, ON

Thank-you for posting this info, I made the mistake of stating that I had pict. of body assemblies packed up ready to be shipped for export. I do not have this, I have pictures of body assemblies packed up ready to be sent from Budd to Dodge facility. Thanks again, this is all starting to fall together alot better for me now.

All of this information is being saved and printed and will hopefully be put to an even better use sometime in the future

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

You guys have been holding out on me. You've had much of this conversation once before. And asked the same questions.

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

1930,

I was about to ask if anybody had done or was interested in doing exactly what you seem to have already done.

I may have owned my pile of sheet metal for a long time but only decided to make it a priority lately. Over the years of casual interest i have picked up bits and pieces here or there and pieced together as best i could.

Had i left it a bit longer you would have done all the work for me.

Lenny,

regarding dealers and builders. In the 20's and 30's were all dealers body shops? Or was this out sourced? Im in Brisbane, and i know only two buildings left that still retain any signs of their past. One,(until only recently) still had the showroom, office, doors, inlaid terrazo floor and work shop still in place. The other is much earlier, with large columns, floor to ceiling windows and other signs of this early architecture. It even sits on the corner of Dodge Lne. I believe it was once Evers Motor Compay. And was brisbanes first dodge dealer.

My Hupmobile ute had these tags nailed inside both door openings. When i find the photo i took of them i will post it if you like.

Other than this i could find out little more. I would love to find a picture of it in its hey day.

Iknow this building could house a body building shop because its upper and lower levels. My hupp was the only time id heard anything of Evers in brisbane. Ever seen or heard of them before?

Back to my original question, Were all dealers, body works?

1930, was wondering about warranties. I know tj richards cars were available in brisbane through dealerships. So, were these dealers, shop front dealerships? If so, any idea what would happen if you had body defects with your new Dodge? Perhaps this work was farmed out to others?

I have seen a picture of an early shop front dealership, and old coach works.

Surely some one has old photos at least of these things, would sure help fill in the gaps.

It is funny im asking this question on an American chat room but i started here looking into the origin of my Dodge but it turns out my aussie t.j. built ute was the 197th out of Detroit. Great stuff.

[Guest 1930]

Quote........1930, was wondering about warranties..........The more I think about I feel that there prob. was not much of a warranty issued to export cars if anything at all. I bet that if anyone were to try and make a claim they were denied unless it could be proven without a doubt that the fault was within the equipment.

Prob. not too much different here but I am sure they kept an even wider eye open on the vehicles that were sent over there knowing that they were for the most part being used in an un-intended way.

I am sure that very few claims were paid out in other words and the dealer would blame headquarters and if headquarters started feeling any heat they would screw with the dealers worse than they were prob. already being screwed with so more than likely the cust. and the dealers ate alot of the problems themselves.

[Guest 36 roadster ute]

Yeah i wonder, the early depression years must have meant buyers would want some surety with such a big important purchase.

It is difficult to know of course with those involved pushing up daisys by now. But some people get their hands on some amazing things for their collections. And occasionally i fail to comprehend how lucky others can be with what they find or inherit. Possibly in the papers attached to a vehicles history, i mean sometimes there will be original purchase papers and service records. I have a few bits and pieces, but nothing real early.(40's& 50's but nothing from 20's &30's)

Lenny, who was asking about the T.J.R stuff in your earlier post? It would be interesting to see some of that.

[Guest 1930]

When screensides here were first offered they were done so with the buyer knowing that should the truck show signs of mis-use/abuse, overloading ect than Dodge would void any and all warranty.

Same as today, someone that goes out and buys a Toyota Yaris and brings it to the dealer with signs of it pulling a 53 foot enclosed trailer prob. will have a difficult time getting anyone to honor the warranty.

I dont know what its like there now nor back then, I know that here back then everyone knew what everyone else was doing, didnt matter so much how far you lived from the dealer, just was no over population like it is today so it was harder to get lost in the weeds.

Even if the new Dodge owner lived many miles away prob. everyone knew what he was about and when he bought that new vehcile he could have had any body put on it ( wether it be passenger or truck ) as long as he recognized that if the vehicle showed any wear outside of its normal parrameters it would null and void the mechanical warranty.

People went ahead and bought ( as they do here ) ( how many times I have seen a T-100 pulling a 16 foot trailer loaded with lawn equipment ) anyway because they were buying into the established dependable name of Dodge, it may have been the best gamble if a ute was what was needed. Just my thoughts.

Edited March 9, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Chrysler shipped cowl/chassis units but no body parts. Cowl/chassis units usually had the front end sheet metal - fenders, hood, grille, etc.

The bodies were done by Australian body companies. Chrysler could not send skins for tourers, for example, as Chrysler did not build tourers, or roadsters, after 1932. Also, Chrysler bodies were all steel, with inner and outer panels that were welded together. North American bodies had no frames, wood or steel. Thus all body parts were made in Australia. Which is why Australian bodies were not the same as North American.

After WW II American manufacturers began shipping CKD units with bodies but this was for low production cars and for smaller companies such as Studebaker. Studebaker used to ship Commander sedan CKD units which the Australian assembler would dress up as a Cruiser. Confused many a Studebaker fan until they figured out what was going on.

Using outside sources for bodies was the norm in North America for decades. GM did not get control of Fisher Body until 1926, at which point GM declared that Fisher Body would be building bodies only for GM.

Chrysler had been using Fisher Body, as well as Briggs, Murray, Hayes, Budd, and others. By the early 1940's, Chrysler used Briggs to build bodies for Plymouth and the other makes were done by Chrysler or Briggs. Chrysler purchased Briggs in 1952.

Same with Ford using mainly Briggs and Murray until the 1940's. Nash used Seaman Body (purchased 1936) and then Budd for major stampings, Hudson used Murray and Budd, Kaiser-Fraser used Murray, Studebaker used Budd for their major body stampings but built their own bodies.

Australian import laws encouraged local body suppliers before WW II. Canada was much the same, with auto companies importing chassis frames and large body stampings. In Canada GM used Fisher Body Canada, Ford built their own using US Ford suppliers for large body pieces and Chrysler of Canada built their own when they purchased the Fisher Body plant in Windsor that had been building bodies for Chrysler.

The Pontiac Laurentian was a Canadian model, by the way. It used a Chevrolet body with front and rear sheetmetal with Pontiac designs. No Canadian Pontiac sheetmetal before the mid-1960s interchanged with the US Pontiac. Engines and transmissions were, naturally, Chevrolet. Although US Pontiacs were Wide-Track starting in 1959, the Canadian Pontiacs were not. An easy way to tell them apart.

Bill

Toronto, ON

Hi Bill, I was able to find several pictures of these cars being crated up and sent overseas. ( I understand that there is no indication of where they are being sent and at this point I am not even certain of the make although it appears to certainly be a Chrysler product )

Am now looking for additional info and will of course share that once I find it if there is anything that has not already been pointed out here.

I am posting here one of 6 photos that I have and am hoping that you can shed some light on it. Will post the other photos soon when I am able to secure what I need ( from an outside source )

If you are familiar with these pictures please dont disclose their origins as of yet as I am hoping to gather them from the original publication and it would be a shame if they were no longer available to me because someone here beat me to them. Thanks again

Edited March 14, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest kotemaori]

Have recently aquired a 35 DV Dodge roadster, 6 wheel equipped, (not a convertible coupe) that I would like to know the production figures for, if anyone can help.

Is there a book on T J Richards, dealing with this period?

Can anyone help with 6 wire wheel hubcaps for 17" Dodge/Plymouth wheels, or L & R doors from a coupe, two door or similar, I can ship them from the US if need be, I have cars there waiting to ship to Brisbane and could put them in the trunk (New Yorker coupe, Imperial and Coupe de Ville, plenty of space )

Any information on the DV roadster much appreciated, it appears to be a rarity with little known