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dstaton

62 Starfire Electrical

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My wiring is half undone: half duplicated, half original...

I have been unable to make certain from the manual what these parts are on my 62 starfire.

Also, where is the indicated junction from the wiring diagram located?

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WOW! :eek::eek::eek:

Is that car hosed!

OK, from the top, Part 1 appears to be the resistor for the HVAC blower motor.

Part 2 is a later model voltage regulator for an external-regulator alternator system. Not original to your car. Part 4 is the original regulator. Has the generator been replaced with an alternator?

Part 3 is a vacuum storage canister, which has no wires and won't show up on the wiring diagram (try the vacuum hose routing diagram for the A/C, however).

Part 5 is a junction block for some power accessories and likely isn't on the basic wiring diagram either. Check the separate wiring diagrams for the accessories.

Parts 6 and 7 are both horn relays/junction blocks. I suspect 7 is the original and 6 is an add-on for some reason.

Your car is the first one I've ever seen where I'd be forced to say that a whole new wiring harness is justified.

Sorry.

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One more note. Be aware that the wiring diagram only covers base equipment. Options like A/C and power windows will have separate diagrams in the CSM. 1962 is a funny year for Olds CSMs because there wasn't a stand-alone 62 manual, only an addendum manual that lists changes from the 1961 manual. You need both for a complete picture.

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StarfireElvis said that:

Per the 1962 Oldsmobile Bulletin, dated 2/28/62, all full-size 1962 Oldsmobiles built from that day forward that had air conditioning as an option utilized the Delcotron alternator. The build date of the car can be gleaned from the Fisher Body Plate, in the upper left hand corner; there will be two numbers followed by a letter; e.g., "07A" means the car was built the first week (A) of July (07).

Months 9, 10, 11, and 12 would be for the previous calendar year.

My car was built in the 3rd week of May, so I am assuming my alternator is original.

I agree that a new harness is in order! Thanks for your help.

Doug

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What Joe said ^ except...

Starfireelvis is right. Your car should have an alternator. In fact it looks correct. Something probably went haywire in the original regulator and they bypassed it and installed the new one in a different location.

Part number 5 is the circuit breaker for the power windows and seat. Those circuits are really "fused." The relay is fused. If it weren't for the relay, the power window and seat circuits would be "hot" all the time. The circuit breaker is in the hot line.

As to your "where", that is just a spot in the wiring harness where all those wires come together. It's probably under the hood somewhere. Most likely wrapped up with electrical tape. Look for where the harness splits in multiple directions. Unless is has been bypassed, too.

Paul

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My car was built in the 3rd week of May, so I am assuming my alternator is original.

Forgive me if I have missed it, but have you posted a pic of the firewall data tag for this car? I looked for one and couldn't find it.

Something is amiss. The voltage regulator on the firewall looks very factory installed, but it is an incorrect regulator for the alternator setup. The regulator that has been added to the passenger inner front fender is correct for an alternator setup, but is clearly in the wrong place. I know Starfireelvis knows his stuff, so I am trusting him on the generator/alternator date as I don't have my reference materals in front of me to double check him. This would leave only a misread or incorrect dataplate to explain the anomoly. I'd like to see the plate.

Paul

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I agree with Paul about the regulators. The regulator shown on the firewall adjacent to the brake booster was only used on generator-equipped cars. Cars with an alternator used the smaller-style regulator, which was mounted in the same location on the firewall, though the mounting holes were different due to the smaller footprint.

A look at the data plate would indeed be helpful in determining what belongs on this car.

BTW, part #3 is the reserve tank for the vacuum trunk release. It allows the trunk to be opened automatically after the engine is turned off.

Part #5 also carries the power for the convertible top.

The harness looks frightening.

I am not aware of anyone making an off-the-shelf reproduction of this harness. I suspect you'd have to send it somewhere to have it duplicated using the original fuse block, as that's not available either. I briefly looked into this a few years ago when confronted with a badly hacked underhood harness in a '62 Starfire coupe. (But not as bad as this...) The lengthy down time for the car, the effort of removing the harness, and the substantial expense of reproducing it led me to repair the existing harness. It was a difficult and time consuming task, and one which I wouldn't suggest you attempt unless you have another car that you can use as a reference.

There are two branches of the main harness that originate at the fuse block. One passes through the firewall to the engine compartment, while the other passes upwards and across the dash toward the passenger door. The entire fuse block and harness were assembled and installed as a unit and thus are not separable from each other. The main harness is deeply embedded in the car- extracting it entirely will likely require you to drop the steering column and remove the dashboard.....then you'll be on the slippery slope towards complete disassembly.

Chuck

Edited by Starfire61 (see edit history)

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Thanks for the exacting info folks. I have removed the air distributor, and I was able to procure an original 62 Starfire dash harness and a 62 88 underhood harness in Phoenix. Great guys at DVAP... I intend to work from the fuse block forward to start the engine.

It is perplexing and intriguing about the voltage regulators. Attached is the the Fisher plate.

Doug

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Edited by dstaton (see edit history)

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Trying to interpret your Fisher Body Plate, with the help of Paul's guide on his '62 Olds website at 1962 Oldsmobile Information Page

Here's what I came up with:

05C--3rd week of May, 1962 (so it would have had a DelcoTron alternator if it had A/C.)

62-3667--Starfire convertible

LA 2414--Lansing Assembly plant; it was the 2414th Starfire convertible built at that plant, if I am not mistaken

Trim 933--Blue (two tone)

Paint F--Wedgewood Mist (light metallic blue)

I think the "C" is from "ACC", meaning Accessories. C would mean Roto-Matic Power Steering (which would be odd, since that was standard on a Starfire)

S--Dual Exhaust System (also odd, since again, that was standard on a Starfire) Could that be S1, which would be the Anti-Spin Differential, aka "PosiTraction"?

Was there a code for the convertible top on here? If not, then it would have actually came from the factory with a black top.

Convertible top colors are as follows:1 - White

2 - Black

4 - Blue

5 - Fawn

6 - Red

Hope this helps; anyone please chime in with more, or to correct my interpretation here...

Mike

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Interesting to see the firewall behind the regulator and find no evidence of mounting holes for an alternator-style regulator.....

Still, the firewall has clearly been fiddled-with at some point, as the car would have come from the factory with the firewall painted in the same color as the body. Somebody went thru the trouble of stripping the hardware off of the firewall and painting it black.

Mike's comment on the data plate gave me an idea. Every '62 Olds I've seen that has factory air conditioning has an "N" stamped on the data tag under Accessories. It's my understanding that major accessories that required attention at the Fisher body plant were typically coded into the tag. For instance, an AC car would require different cutouts on the firewall stamping than a non-AC car, so the people assembling the body would need to be sure that the correct firewall configuration was built into the body.

Anyway, this car lacks the "N" on the cowl tag. Given the "creativity" used to alter the seats and console, I wonder if somebody scavenged an AC setup from another car and installed it here. That could explain the other regulator on the fender, repainting the firewall, and the scary wiring harness.

Adding AC to one of these is a big job, but it's certainly possible. When the car gets disassembled to the point that the blower unit on the firewall is removed, it will be revealing to see if the firewall openings appear factory or homemade.

BTW Mike, Lansing-built cars didn't code for convertible top color. Southgate did, and I think Doraville did as well. I'm not sure about the other plants.

My '62 Starfire convertible was Lansing-built in the first week of April and carries body #2033. Apparently it took about six weeks for the main Olds plant to build just 381 more.

Chuck

Edited by Starfire61 (see edit history)

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Looking at the other threads on this car, I noticed that the fan shroud is of the style used on the non-AC cars, which again suggests to me that the AC was added.

AC cars also used a dished power steering pump pulley, as opposed to a flat pulley on the non-AC cars. Your flat pump pulley is consistent with a non-AC car.

There are a few other things you could check......Non-AC cars used a 3-core radiator, while AC cars used a 4-core. (I don't know if a non-AC fan shroud could even accommodate a 4-core radiator.)

AC cars had a 3-groove harmonic balancer.

AC cars used a clutch fan, while non-AC cars had a stamped, 4-blade fan with no clutch.

Carburetors on AC cars had a small fitting called an "idle compensator valve" located between the secondaries.

AC cars also had inner passenger fenders fitted with a large, removable plate that allowed for access to the evaporator assembly.

Please keep us posted with your findings!

Chuck

Edited by Starfire61 (see edit history)

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This is intriguing.

Would the crank pulley have been replaced? The water pump? Radiator? All the ancillary parts, dryer, evaporator, etc. look factory to me.

What does the Alt Fld Relay fuse on the bottom right side of the fuse block govern? (see pic below)

I wonder what other tell-tale signs might indicate. What other details would be most telling short of the firewall blower removal?

Thanks to the mafia.

Doug

Edited by dstaton (see edit history)

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Looking at your other pics, it appears that you're only running two belts. On an AC car, there should be two belts to the generator/alternator and compressor, and one to the power steering pump.

How many belts will fit on your balancer? Water pump pulley?

I also noticed that your glass fuel filter assembly has an inlet from the fuel pump and an outlet to the carb. Factory AC cars had fuel filters that had an inlet, an outlet, AND a return line that ran back to the gas tank. So you have a non-AC fuel filter setup.

If you had a return line, it would be a rubber hose running down to a rigid line at the frame.

Take a look at the inside of the frame rail below the passenger door. If you have one fuel line, it's very likely a non-AC car. If you have two parallel lines running the length of the rail, it's probably an AC car.

I don't know what that Alt Fld spot is for on the fuse block.....I'll have to look on my car when I have a chance.

Chuck

Edited by Starfire61 (see edit history)

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I concur with Chuck's assertion that every factory A/C '62 Olds I've ever seen has an "N" fo the A/C on the Fisher tag. Given the degree with which this car has been altered, I would also agree that while difficult, it's not impossible to just get the A/C cutouts for the dash, and do all the externals/internals to make it a factory-appearance A/C car (I do know of a '63 Olds 98 Sport Coupe that was so altered, you never would have noticed it did not originally have air).

Chuck also brings up several more tell-tale clues, all of which I would also agree with. Didn't know the deal about the Lansing-built cars not having the top codes on there...

Interesting extrapolation also, using the numbers from the tag; there is another black '62 Starfire Coupe around here in NE Ohio that was built two weeks after my car was at South Gate; in checking out the VIN and the Fisher tag, it appears that of the 228 cars that were built in that interim, 199 of them were Starfires, leading me to believe that they were cranking out the Starfires at the Los Angeles plant toward the end of the run in July (and early August; Bob Keesler's white '62 SF coupe with A/C was built first week of August '62, I believe in LA, but not sure).

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Keep in mind that dealers often installed A/C using a factory issued kit, though it always looked like a major undertaking to me.

I'm not sure Olds had a hang-on unit for dealer installation as Chevrolet did, though Keith Bleakney over in Buickland has some documentation that Buick had one.

The Alt Fld Relay has something to do with the Delcotron warning lamp, and I actually thought that was what was on the fenderwell since I've seen those in that location on F85/Specials from that time. My 62 shop book is a Sept 61 printing, and wouldn't you know the only 62 Service Guild I'm missing is the one that addresses it.

Edit: I've dug thru the 61-64 shop books and none of them show that cavity in the fuse block. Are we sure it's an Oldsmobile fuse block in this car?

Edited by rocketraider (see edit history)

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That explains a lot about the wiring. I am impressed a bit more than I am appalled.

So, elsewhere I have read that the return line's purpose is to let the fuel pressure between the pump and carb go to 0 to help with under hood emissions and vapor lock – a calibrated leak to the fuel pump with the engine running. And without it, fuel pump pressure will go up sometimes enough to cause flooding at low speeds.

I have also read that stopping the return with a bubba bolt makes no difference to performance.

Obviously originality has taken a derivative meaning here... Bearing in mind that I live in Tucson and the car will be driven in 100º weather, how do you predict the absence of the return line will affect my car's functioning? I have read your frustration, Chuck, at running that rubber hose through the frame.

Any insight on the generator-appropriate voltage regulator? I intend to install the newer version, but i just want it to make sense. Could they have replaced the firewall?!?

Doug

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Wow.

Just... Wow.

On the data plate, C is actually part of ACC, and abbreviation for accessories. So C means nothing. S is the option code for dual exhaust. I have run across this before. For starters, duals were standard on a Starfire and would not appear on a Starfire data plate, in the same way that the standard U4 power windows do not show up on this plate. Secondly, dual exhaust would have nothing to do with the build of the body. That would be a final assembly option. I believe the S stands for Sold Order, as opposed to a vehicle ordered for dealer stock. Sold orders were given preference over stock orders.

It is true, Lansing seems to have left the convertible top code off of their data plates. I've yet to see a Lansing convertible with a top code. So, you are free to put whatever color top on this car that you like. That, however, is the least of your concerns at this point.

Now that Chuck has brought it up, I've gone back and looked at all the other pics, and he is right. Not all of the A/C parts are there. I became so involved with trying to fathom that mess of a wiring harness, that I didn't catch all of the A/C details. I feel it is safe to say that the A/C is not a factory installation, nor do I think it is a dealer installation. Someone either got ahold of an incomplete parts car, or an incomplete installation kit. Chuck is right about the things that are missing. Someone went to an awful lot of trouble, but didn't go all the way.

Your decision now must be - do you want to do the A/C installation correctly, or do you want to remove it? If you want to finish the installation, do you want to have the alternator which is correct for the car, or revert back to a generator? These decisions will affect (or be affected by) the wiring harnesses that you just purchased. Did they come from A/C or non A/C cars? If they're from A/C cars, are they alternator or generator cars? I would say you're best bet would be to take the best wiring harness of the two that you bought and make the car fit the harness.

In relation to Glenn's comment about the fuse block - yes, it is an Olds block. There won't be anything in the manuals about this. I think I've got a service bulleting that explains it. This is a block like my A/C alternator car has.

That return line pumps a lot of fuel back to the tank. I had a problem a few years ago and had to run the car on an external 1 gallon tank. It took less than 1/2 a mile for that tank to empty out. Luckily it died just as I reached where I was going. I never gave that return a thought when I was doing that.

I seriously doubt they replaced the firewall, but with some of the other modifications, who knows.

Two questions have been bugging me for a while now. How did you run across this car, and, if I may ask, what did you pay for it?

Paul

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I didn't realize that this was the same car with the Cutlass console and the fabricated bench seat. OF COURSE this car has been completely hacked up and reassembled by someone. I wouldn't read anything into any feature on that car, since none of it is anywhere close to factory anymore.

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I love this car. I bought it on eBay a few months ago for 4k.

Owner said it had been in dry storage for 35 years. I am the third owner. I was told it had been a special order, originally purchased in Chicago by someone in the air force. In addition to the front bench seat and console, it has these tow bars attached to the front of the frame.

Paul, which AC parts seem to be absent? I want to correctly finish the AC installation using the alternator and its smaller voltage regulator, if they are the appropriate, 45 amp specimens.

I have removed all the extraneous wiring from under the hood, back to the hacked members of the original harness. I am currently pinging wires to determine how much of the original harness is serviceable – whether to replace the old harness, or add courses and rewrap branches.

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Well, for starters, you are going to need a wiring harness from an A/C car with an alternator. Do you know if that is what you bought from the bone yard?

You are also going to need:

3 groove A/C balancer (assuming)

A/C power steering pulley

6 blade cooling fan with clutch (assuming)

A/C water pump (I am assuming it has not been changed - A/C pump has a shorter snout)

A/C fan shroud

A/C fan guard

A/C radiator (if not already replaced)

3 fitting A/C fuel filter

return line to tank (tank will probably have to have a return port added)

A/C carb with idle compensator

Passenger inner fender well with evaporator core access panel.

The air box looks complete, and you say the drier and evporator are there. The lines look complete, as does the compressor and associated brackets. I am assuming everything is there under the dash. I noticed neither the A/C or the heater harnesses are plugged in at the fuse box (or the power windows or seat).

Looks like you already have the correct alternator, and I am assuming the correct regulator, just in the wrong place. There should also be a generator light relay somewhere. I don't know where to tell you to look for that. I don't even know where mine is... :o

I know a guy who has installation instructions for the dealer accessory A/C kit. I bet he'd be willing to make a copy for you. That would show everything that needs to be done to install factory A/C (other than the alternator). Maybe he'd make a copy for me, too?

Paul

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Yes! The instructions would be really great, Paul. It looks like I'm going to actually have to read them this time...

Thanks for your help. I have the right harmonic balancer, but the wrong water pump. This will fix the strange offset of the belts.

Doug

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