Restoration Agreement

[Guest Vienna_Jim]

Looking for typical agreement for restoration services.

[Bill Stoneberg]

No agreement but I can tell you what I have learned as a customer

1. Minimal money up front, I will pay for work done on my car, not fund your shop while you work on other cars. I will give a deposit to hold a place if you are busy but I will then pay you for work done.

2. Pay on time or expect to have your car move to the back of the line. I expect you to stop working on my car if I fail to pay you promptly.

3. Pictures and a time sheet of what you have done in the time you are asking me to pay for.

4. Expect me to come over and see the car as needed. If I cant see the car on my schedule, you aren't the shop for me.

5. If I am chasing parts for you, I expect you to tell me what you need and when. You can expect me to keep you informed on parts progress and delivery dates.

6. If you are getting parts for my car, you can expect payment promptly.

7. You will keep track of my parts, I will know and have record of what I delivered to you., If you lose it, you will find it and pay for it.

8 Did I say to pay promptly for actual work done ?

I am sure others will have more ideas but these are my big ones.

[trimacar]

For a full restoration, most shops won't sign a fixed price agreement. What you're going to get is a time and material agreement, so whatever time the shop spends on the car, you are obligated to pay for it.

An exception would be piece work, such as an upholstery job or a paint job. Those, you're better off getting a firm price, if the shop will give that to you.

There's a fine balance between spending the time needed to do the job correctly (you'll get this with T&M), and rushing a job (fixed price) with mediocre results. Thus, from a quality standpoint, you're better off paying T&M. From a financial standpoint, you're better off getting a firm quote, as in that situation the worker or workers have more incentive to spend less time on a job and get it done.

Quite a Catch 22, I'd say.

Work with someone you trust, and don't expect fine work to come cheap.

[alsancle]

More context please. This is a very opened ended question. What sort of restoration services?

[R Walling]

I would ask him for a price for a certain task and then evaluate the workmanship and the time span it took.

If I was satisfied, I would continue the tasks until I was satisfied and confortable to have him do the entire job on a time and cost basis.

I would , of course. keep in touch regulary and pay promptly. as this would inspire his confidience in me.

NEVER, tell a restorer that there is no hurry. Always set a anticipated time for each step in the progress.

[60FlatTop]

In the 1990's I made a very good business of servicing original and restored cars. I did not do restoration work.

Most of the work I did was on freshly restored cars to make them "steer, start, and stop".

Very few cars left the other shops in a condition that would allow you to throw your wife the keys and let her run to the store for a gallon of milk. With the customer's permission I did just that. I would exercise the cars in the way they were used when new.

In the end there is no substitute for an original well maintained car. If you are considering a restoration think over the option of buying a finished car. Restoration does not guarantee perfection. I have a car I own that is under restoration. I know better and still choose to do it myself (at the moment).

A restoration requires too many talents for any but the largest shops to complete.

Most restorations exceed the owner's expectations in time and money. The best relationships can become strained over time and from many checks. The last 10 to 20% of the work can become a grudge match with both parties angry and not speaking. Critical work may not be done right because the restorer does not want to ask for more money.

Simple things like the weatherstripping around doors and windows is very costly. Next time you go to a collector car auction look at how many cars fall short in this area.

Shake down and reliability testing is almost nonexistent.

I would tell my customers to add up all their hidden bills. Once they got the total I figured they were about 85% of the way to the car they wanted. $30,000 invested in a nice shiny car would usually mean about $4,500 in cooling, electric, brakes, alignment, and body fitting. $60,000 was around $9,000.

Again, it is very hard to get from a one stop shop.

In today's economic situation you can buy a really nice car of the type you want for much less than a restoration.

If a restoration is your chosen path, buy the best car you can find and begin a "component" restoration. Fix all the mechanical things to make a good reliable and drivable car. Much of this you might do yourself. Remember, you will need these skills to maintain your car through your years of ownership.

Much of the component restoration can be done by good local garages. You just need to find the white hat guys in a non-chain garage. You can do as much or as little as you want and act as a general contractor. Pay on completion and tip the help. They will greet you with a smile. (You don't think I fixed everything myself in the '90's did you).

Being your own general contractor on a component restoration gives you a drivable car early in the game. It puts you in a good position if you want to divest yourself of the project. A lot of cars are just not nice drivers from new. 50 or so years erases those memories. Imagine finding out you don't like driving the car AFTER the restoration.

Bottom line, I am doing a restoration. I know I shouldn't. I just like the shape of the car in my garage and the sense of ownership. It is best to buy a good car, unrestored if possible. Second best is do a component restoration, never leaving your car disassembled for a long period. If you restore, orchestrate the job between good craftsmen and be your own GC.

All that written, what are you planning to restore?

Bernie

[R W Burgess]

Excellent reply Bernie. I especially like the "last 10 to 20%" comment. So many car owners run out of money and patience before the car is completely finished.

Wayne

[Restorer32]

Yea, all those restorers are crooks. I wouldn't trust any of 'em!

[60FlatTop]

I missed the part about crooks. The question was about agreements and no matter how well an agreement is written it can be superseded by levels of competence and human nature. A raised level of awareness makes a better customer.

Bernie

[Guest Skyking]

Work with someone you trust, and don't expect fine work to come cheap.

This is the key statement!

[trimacar]

I didn't get the "crook" sense either.

A restoration shop owner has to be a good businessman to stay in business (my son calls me "Captain Obvious, Defender of the Already Known!). The reason for such a shop to be in existence is to provide a service and make a living, NOT do work for cheap. A customer who doesn't understand this concept, or who doesn't understand what it takes to restore an automobile, can get the "crook" perception, but they can be wrong.

That's said, there ARE people out there who can be less than honest, but usually their reputation follows them around like an old fart.

I agree with the last 10 to 20%, and in some cases the pain starts well before that point. I saw numerous cars at the shop where I worked be literally "abandoned" by the owners, as they were in a no-win situation. The car would be half or more finished, but they didn't want to write any more checks. In that situation, a mechanic's lien takes over at some point, and the shop ends up owning the car.

This doesn't mean the restorer is a "crook", it means that the owner didn't understand the scope of the job in the first place, in parts, hours, services, and dollars, and the restorer didn't communicate the potential investment in the project.

I usually do top or interior work by the hour, but I'll give the car owner some rough idea of the final cost. I've done enough early tops that I can probably quote a price and come out OK. Every interior is different, and that's a little harder to do, and there can always be hidden surprises.

For example, a local club member has a nice Pierce sedan. He put the top insert on himself, and it literally flapped in the wind. I offered to install an insert correctly, gratis, if he'd supply material. I took the insert material off, and found that the wood underneath the metal was gone in places. Expecting rot, I was shocked when I found that the entire upper wood structure was like charcoal. Apparently, a dome light had gotten hot, and the wood had smouldered and burned.

He replaced it himself, as he had a woodworking shop set up. If this situation had happened in a restoration shop, what would have been a $500 top job would have turned into a $3000 wood replacement job.

THAT'S the hazard, if you will, of restoration. Just about every job in refurbishing an antique car takes longer than imagined, and has problems of some kind..........

[Guest Vienna_Jim]

Bernie, thanks for your thoughts. We have a 1932 Packard Coupe that was professionally restored in the late seventies and sold/bought at the Hershey show in 1980. Since then it was driven for less than two hundred miles (of its 33,200) and has not been out of the garage since 1982. I would like to get it running and to Hershey in the fall--for sale. Jim

[Guest Dick Whittington]

I restored many cars over the years. We did all the obvious, car was available for inspection almost all the time, itemized bills, photos, videos, etc. I let the owner hold back 10% until the first show. Had to be shown in 90 days or less. Once the car achieved the desired award(s) the 10% was due and payable immediately. The vehicles would start, stop, steer, track, idle, run wide open, no shake rattle or roll. All lights worked properly, radio (ise) would work, etc.

[trimacar]

Doesn't sound like you're talking a complete restoration anyway. To get a "dead" car running and cleaned up is still a task, but not a huge one. If engine is free, you may be able to come out just as well selling the car "as is", a 32 Packard coupe should be an easy sell......

[Guest billybird]

I believe the "all are crooks" statement by Restorer32 was made with tongue in cheeck. If I,m not mistaken, he runs his own restoration shop. {or has}.

[Restorer32]

Yea it was "tongue in cheek" but I do get a bit irritated with the often heard misconception that cars that come out of restoration shops are more often than not shiny but without properly functioning mechanicals. That's just ridiculous. Like any other business, restoration shops do what the customer is willing to pay for, no more or no less. Same misperception exists with "trailer queens". I submit that most trailered vehicles are as well restored mechanically as they are cosmetically. Those cars you see at auction that look good but barely function mechanically more likely came out of a body shop or car dealer's detail shop than out of a qualified restoration shop. We have had many folks tell us they just want a "nice driver but not a show car" but we have yet to have anyone tell us they want a "show quality paint job but don't care if the car is driveable or not".

[Amphicar BUYER]

When I hand the keys back to a customer, the car is safe and road/sea-worthy with a warranty. It has been driven and swam enough to be sure all is well. I would not complete a car that I wouldn't trust enough to take the kids with us. I tell all customers that I have a minimum standard that I will not compromise. If you can't or won't pay for things to be done correctly, then I'm not going to do the work. I have finished several cars that came from other shops missing $1000s of worth of parts, shoddy work and just plain amature "work." I am completeing one right now that there is no evidence I could see that the previos shop knew how to use any tools but wire cutters (OUCH!!)

Don't take your car to somebody who does not know that specific car. An Amphi is a simplistic car, but they are quirky. You must know who to buy parts from as well as who NOT to buy parts from. When an Amphi leaves here, it has a day by day account of not just the hours spent, but what was done in detail for those hours. It comes with several hundred dated photos from start to finish. They pay as I work. Usually every 40hrs or so. If I'm not working on a car due to non-payment, then storage fees kick in. Funny how people always seem to catch up when they are being charged storage instead of labor.

You will not get an agreement from me other than a T&M agreement as there is no way to kow what internal parts or assys that can be repaired or need replacement. These parts could be found for a super deal or be pure unobtanium. My hours searching for parts is a value too. Ea. hour looking for parts is an hour not spent working on your car, but an hour none the less. I always have many hrs of "gimme" in each car. If I screw up something, it's not your fault so I don't charge for that. When I sub out upholstery or paint/body, you get the actual charge with nothing added for me except for time to deliver the car to the other shops.

Al my full restos are turn-key and more ready for the road/water as they were when they were new. I encourage the customers to visit me and the body shop while under construction to see the various states of the resto. This also gives them a better idea of how much effort there is involved. You should expect no less for any full restoration.

[Restorer32]

We take no deposit up front, bill monthly with documentation and expect to be paid promptly. We tell potential customers up front that we mark up any parts or materials we purchase for their project by a very small % over our cost (always the same and the % is spelled out in our contract). We have no problem with customers who purchase parts on their own to avoid the mark up but conversely if the customer buys the wrong part they will pay for us to repackage and return the part. Same with chrome. We expect customers to visit regularly so they have a sense of where their money is going. We use a contract that allows the customer to stop work at any time for any or no reason at all. It also allows us to stop work for any or no reason at all. There are some people you just can't work with. We also have standards that we will not deviate from. One is that we will not paint anything unless we are allowed to remove all finishes back to the bare metal. We provide a service by the hour. Customers can purchase as many or as few hours as they choose. We do not get involved in discussions such as "is my car worth restoring" or "what will my car be worth when finished". Those are questions each car owner has to answer for themselves. As the bills mount and your significant other begins to arch an eyebrow we will sympathize with you but it will not change the bill. About 1/2 of the cars we have in the shop at any one time come out of other shops or situations where the likelihood of the project ever being finished was slight, usually because the shop gave the customer an unrealistic fixed price and cannot afford to finish the job.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

For Restorer or anyone else in the business who cares to comment - how long is a typical project - just curious what a full blown job takes on average. Hours or calendar time is fine, or both if you can make a comment to that effect.

[Amphicar BUYER]

For Restorer or anyone else in the business who cares to comment - how long is a typical project - just curious what a full blown job takes on average. Hours or calendar time is fine, or both if you can make a comment to that effect.

This is not a question that can be answered with any amount of certainty. It's just too general. If you start with a better car, you have less time. If the car is in poor shape, it takes MUCH longer and requires more effort, parts and money to complete. It depends on too many variables like how fast the customer feeds the beast, getting parts etc. Sometimes a rare part than fits in your palm can stop you cold for months.

Generally mine take 8-18 months. I have a 2+ year waiting list now.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Thanks John, understood I am just wondering what a typical stay is - Good for you to have a waiting list also!

You never changed your sig. so did you ultimately pass on the Corvair???

[poci1957]

When I worked in a shop doing mostly prewar (capital C) Classics we determined a round number of 2000 hours for a full restoration.

That is 40 hours a week for 50 weeks, a year of full time work. And of course you will be waiting for chrome or parts or customer payment for part of that time, so the actual time spent in the shop is more like 18-24 months. But even that is not hard and fast, that would be for a complete car not missing major components or requiring much parts scrounging. And that is time only, no parts or materials included.

That is just an estimate, it is impossible to know exactly what actual time will be required on any car, Todd C

[Steve_Mack_CT]

2,000 hours is the figure I have heard before, just for conversation's sake as we re-acclimate to the work week...

[trimacar]

2000 is a pretty good "ballpark" figure, as long as you remember the ball park referenced is Wrigley Field and not your local little league park. There's also a "shop efficiency" that will affect the final price. I've seen guys sand a hood in a few hours, I've seen a guy sand a hood for a week. I do trim work as a hobby now, and I can tell you (of all my great qualities, modesty may be my best) I'm pretty good, but I'm not fast. I do it a stitch at a time, unlike many of the "production" upholstery places I've seen, with the sewing maching sounding like a machine gun....tatatatatatatatatatatatatatat. On a large touring car, to put bowdrill on the bows, new pads, new top, I'm figuring around 50-60 hours. Complete set of side curtains, that many hours again. Rough numbers.

I'd say a normal open Classic of the 30's (discounting exotics such as Duesenbergs or V-seventy-elevens) should cost, professionally restored, $160K to $240K.

A Model A in the same shop might go as high as $60K to $80K. Mid size cars between Ford and Classic, in the mid range of those numbers....

Again, just ballpark figures.....

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I have followed this for a few weeks and lots of great advice posted above. As a restoration shop owner I can say that many times our biggest obstacle is educating our customer on what needs to be done and how it will need to be done. I also have a 5-page "Work Agreement" that my customer & I sign however in reality I have several repeat customers that we did not even have them sign a 2nd, or 3rd contract simply because these papers are probably only worth the paper they are written on. Like David and several others stated, it is all about "trust" and relationship.

The biggest thing that I find that means different things to different folks is what is their definition of "Restoration". To some it means 'Repair & Repaint', ...and to others it means "Everything Rebuilt to specifications equal to, --or greater than when it was originally manufactured." I am of the opinion 'The Golden Rule' applies (The customer with the Gold, ...rules!) and the customer sets the definition however I think we will all agree that there can be a vast difference in cost between the two definitions. The only issue is a prospective customer needs to be careful forming an opinion on a shop's craftsmanship by inspecting a car unless they have first-hand knowledge on how the shop was instructed to "restore" the vehicle.

[huptoy]

Find out if there is a minimum amount of time charged when anyone in the shop works on or is consulted on your car.

About 7 years ago, I had some work done on my car for $35 an hour. What I wasn't told is they have a minimum charge of 30 minutes when a 2nd person assists the first person. This applies even if the the time is for 5 minutes. I was billed an unbelievable amount of time for the 2nd persons help.

[trimacar]

Again, this is what separates the hobby of old cars, from the business of restoration.

As a hobby, I'd spend some time helping someone at no charge.

Now, if I'm running a business, and I have craftsman on the payroll, I need to charge their time to SOMETHING when they're on my payroll, unless they're doing something specifically for me or the general shop.

So, we need to lift a body back on a frame. Maybe a 30 minute job if everything is set up, but, I have to quit the job I'm working on and get to a stopping point. Then, walk over to the area where the body is, then, discuss the procedure for lifting and placing the body, then do the job, come back, and figure out where I was on the other project. So, what looks like a simple "walk over and help and go back" becomes one or more hours charge against the body car.

And, I'm working on your car, trying to stay organized and neat and clean, to give you the best quality. At the end of the day, the last 20 minutes of the day is clean up, organize, carry trash out, and so forth. Will you get charged for that? Absolutely, it's all part of the job.

So, there are valid reasons for charging appropriate costs, as a business.

I do understand the other side of things. I had someone working on my Pierce, 16-18 years ago I believe, a paint job. I received a large bill for work. Went to the shop, and the owner had his 15 year old son scraping crud off the frame, and he was charging me full shop rate. That's not kosher, and the car was removed from the shop quickly.

Again, as mentioned, trust, and an understanding of scope of work, is essential to a good experience with a restoration shop.

[Restorer32]

In any restoration there is a certain amount of time spent simply staring at the car and scratching your butt while you try to figure out the next logical step, especially with vehicles that were disassembled by someone else somewhere else at some time in the past. We are about to complete restoration of a car that was totally disassembled in 1991. We finished one last year that was disassembled for "restoration" 39 years ago. It's like putting together a jig saw puzzle where you don't know if any pieces are missing nor do you know if all the pieces you do have belong to the project at hand. I like the sign my attorney has posted..."Any time spent explaining an invoice will be billed at regular hourly rates". We don't bill for a "helper" if it's just for a 5 or 10 minute job. Now if 2 guys are working on a car, say both doing bodywork, then yes, we bill for both workers.

[trimacar]

Yes, I agree that part of the job is the brain work, just figuring out what to do next and then after that. Preparation, work, clean-up, it's all chargable hours.

I used to have an accountant with a big stopwatch on his desk. You'd walk in, as soon as you sat down he'd hit the "start" button. Then, he'd start talking about his week and family and all that, I'd have to stop him, if he's charging me, we're talking business, not personal.

Same if you visit the shop working on your car. You can stay and talk 2 hours if you wish, but if it's to a craftsman working on the car, expect to get billed those 2 hours at regular rates.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I think the best way to describe this to a (potential) customer is that what they are doing in a T&M billing method is "Buying the shop's time." Since we do not charge any parts mark-up or profit from materials, our only revenue source is selling them our Time. BTW, we bill to the ¼ hour.

The 2nd side of this, in a shop that is performing multiple restorations simultaneously, each employee theoretically should be logged onto a project at all times and have 100% billable hours for the amount of payroll hours. If you as a customer were being billed for a craftsman working on your vehicle for the entire day, yet several times during that day you paid for that employee to assist another employee working on a different project, that probably would create a little concern for you financially because you might feel you are funding a portion of a restoration on someone else's vehicle. I think I understand Restorer32's position on how they don't charge for a helper if it is 5-10 minutes but for me, I take the view that the customer is going to pay for that one way or the other. Either the customer is going to pay through a higher hourly shop rate fee due to covering the shop's costs of this missing billable time, ....or the customer is going to pay for it through unproductive time billed against their own vehicle.

If you were to add up 10 minutes a day of being a "helper" and multiply that over a 2,000 hour project, that would equate to over 41 hours, --or over $2,000 of extra cost if the shop's rate was $50.00 an hour! :eek:

[Restorer32]

We almost never bill a full 40 hours/week. There is always a certain amount of time you can't in good conscience bill for. We don't bill for the time it takes to make coffee in the morning or for time to do equipment maintenance, shovel snow, clean the bathrooms, change oil in the boss's truck, post on this forum etc. It's called overhead. We look at the hours charged to each project on a weekly basis and decide if the charges are appropriate for the amount of work accomplished. Some workers are faster than others. By the way, you misinterpreted what I said re a helper. We don't charge ANYONE for a helper if it's only a 5-10 minute job, usually because it's me or my son who helps. The two of us "float" and almost never can we bill 100% of son's time nor obviously mine. Our system has worked for 33 years now, doubt we'll change it any time soon.

[trimacar]

Your "system" sounds very fair. I particularly like the fact that you look at a week's work charged to a car, and determine if it's a week's worth of work.

When I do upholstery jobs by the hour, I do the same thing. I'm not the fastest trimmer around, and trying to get every stitch correct takes time. I've adjusted final bills, because the hobbyist in me thought the amount wasn't quite right.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

We almost never bill a full 40 hours/week. There is always a certain amount of time you can't in good conscience bill for. We don't bill for the time it takes to make coffee in the morning or for time to do equipment maintenance, shovel snow, clean the bathrooms, change oil in the boss's truck, post on this forum etc. It's called overhead. We look at the hours charged to each project on a weekly basis and decide if the charges are appropriate for the amount of work accomplished. Some workers are faster than others. By the way, you misinterpreted what I said re a helper. We don't charge ANYONE for a helper if it's only a 5-10 minute job, usually because it's me or my son who helps. The two of us "float" and almost never can we bill 100% of son's time nor obviously mine. Our system has worked for 33 years now, doubt we'll change it any time soon.

I'm sorry, ...please don't be offended as that was not my intent. I understood your position and I am fine with it. Neither of us is necessarily "right" or "wrong" in our view and I was merely offering another perspective. Your system works successfully for you, and likewise my system has worked for my business. Trimacar, if a/your customer understands "why" you are slower (i.e.: counting stitches, sewing straight, wrinckle free, etc.) because they have been educated in what quality looks like, they will likely understand why you are "slow" and will gladly pay for that level of service.

Like y'all, we too find ourselves "shaving time" when things don't necessarily go according to plans. And, I think most shops probably do this if they dilligently track productivity and resource planning. I think it is a good thing that we have a "hobbyist" side of us that can keep things in perspective. I say this 'tongue-in-cheek' but we are in a tough business where we must find a customer who is willing to spend twice as much money on an item as what it is worth in the end.

[trimacar]

Brent, I understand your point, in fact have a story about it.

A number of years ago, a well-to-do fellow brought me a car to work on, trimmer type stuff, and wanted a few things made and such, won't go into details but it was an early touring car.

I did what he asked, all nice and neat and pretty. Before he picked up the car, he'd stated he had other work that he might want me to do.

He picked the car up, I gave him the bill, he never said a word, paid it, and left.

Through a mutual friend, I heard that the guy was complaining how expensive the work was. Huh, so THAT"S why he didn't bring me any more work. My preference, of course, would have been for him to say something when I gave him the bill, and we could have worked it out.

Fast forward a couple years. The mutual friend tells me one day, "Hey, so and so was wondering if you'd do more work for him...." So I tell the mutual friend, well, I thought he said I was too expensive. "Yeah, he thinks you're too expensive, but he said you do really good work and he likes it....."

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Brent, I understand your point, in fact have a story about it.

A number of years ago, a well-to-do fellow brought me a car to work on, trimmer type stuff, and wanted a few things made and such, won't go into details but it was an early touring car.

I did what he asked, all nice and neat and pretty. Before he picked up the car, he'd stated he had other work that he might want me to do.

He picked the car up, I gave him the bill, he never said a word, paid it, and left.

Through a mutual friend, I heard that the guy was complaining how expensive the work was. Huh, so THAT"S why he didn't bring me any more work. My preference, of course, would have been for him to say something when I gave him the bill, and we could have worked it out.

Fast forward a couple years. The mutual friend tells me one day, "Hey, so and so was wondering if you'd do more work for him...." So I tell the mutual friend, well, I thought he said I was too expensive. "Yeah, he thinks you're too expensive, but he said you do really good work and he likes it....."

.