63 BUICK WILDCAT 401 4 SPEED - HOW MANY ARE OUT THERE?

[Guest KITYCAT]

I HAVE A 63 BUICK WILDCAT 401 4 SPEED NUMBERS MATCHING 2 DOOR HARDTOP. RECENTLY HAD AN APPRAISAL ON IT BUT WE WERE UNABLE TO FIND OUT HOW MANY WERE MADE AND HOW MANY ARE ACTUALLY OUT THERE. DOES ANYONE HAVE AND IDEA WHERE I MAY BE ABLE TO GET THIS INFO? IT WOULD HELP MY APPRAISAL VALUE.

[1939_Buick]

Better to ask (with lower case letters) in Buick - General - AACA Forums

A picture is worth a 1000 words

[Jim Rohn]

I HAVE A 63 BUICK WILDCAT 401 4 SPEED NUMBERS MATCHING 2 DOOR HARDTOP. RECENTLY HAD AN APPRAISAL ON IT BUT WE WERE UNABLE TO FIND OUT HOW MANY WERE MADE AND HOW MANY ARE ACTUALLY OUT THERE. DOES ANYONE HAVE AND IDEA WHERE I MAY BE ABLE TO GET THIS INFO? IT WOULD HELP MY APPRAISAL VALUE.

Get a REAL collector car appraiser, they will KNOW that it makes no difference how MANY "are out there".

TURN OFF YOU CAPS LOCK too, it is annoying to 99% of those TRYING to read your post ...

Just an FYI to help you out

[rocketraider]

Two words sum it up. Not many.

I have seen exactly one in my life, at a show in Mocksville NC some 20 years ago. Triple black and immaculate. The "reversed" shifter handle caught me off guard, and that's when I realised what I was looking at.

Standard Catalog of American Cars 1946-1975 indicates the four speed was available on Skylark, LeSabre and Wildcat in 1963 at a cost of $200 for Skylark and $263 for LeSabre/Wildcat. No production breakout, but since Buick liked their Dynaflow a lot and pushed it hard, there couldn't have been many.

Edited June 26, 2011 by rocketraider (see edit history)

[Guest KITYCAT]

Thanks for your thoughts and advice on the 63. I'm new to these forums so apologies for the quirks. Thought I would attach a few pics of the wildcat. Any further ideas on nailing down numbers of this cat are most welcome. Thanks!

[Jim Rohn]

Again, the value has nothing to do with how many were built or how many survive.

There were 12,185 Wildcat coupes made in 1963, 6.021 convertible Wildcats.

Unknown how many were 4 speed, as stated above "not many" is as good of a guess as any,

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Let me quantify "not many". In 1963, the total Wildcat 4 speed production was 30. There were also 30 Wildcats with 425's. The overlap of these two groups is beleived to be only 2 or 3 cars. There is in existence a beautiful black 4 door hardtop 425 4speed with all the toys. There's also a 425 4speed convertible being restored now.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest KITYCAT]

Thanks for those numbers. Can I ask where you were able to get those numbers from?

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

Very nice! I have the 63 "Daily Production Reports" that these numbers can be combobulated from. Welcome to the Wildcat 4-speed world!

Ted

[Pete Phillips]

There was a Buick Bugle magazine article on the '63-'64 Wildcats last year, and the article addressed the rarity of the 4-speed equipped cars. In addition, Mr. Corbin and I jointly own one of the 4-speed convertibles, which is under restoration now. We did some research on them and also had help from other Buick club members and historians.

I have to completely and totally disagree with Mr. Rohn's statement that production numbers and rarity have nothing to do with a car's value. What makes a '70 GS 455 stage One convertible so valuable? What makes a '49 Chrysler Town & Country convertible so valuable? What makes a '63 Chrysler 300 J so valuable? What makes the 842 Buick Skylark converitbles built in 1954 so valuable? What makes the 142 1961 Impala Super Sports built with the factory 409 engine so valuable? If 250,000 copies of each car I"ve just named had been built, do you think we would be talking the same values?! No way. It is a combination of rarity combined with desireability. Sure, there were some low-production cars that were never very desirable, and are not valuable today--Yugos would be one example. A '58 Studebaker Scotsman might be another. But to say that low production numbers never have anything to do with value is incorrect.

Pete Phillips

Leonard, TX

Edited June 27, 2011 by Pete Phillips (see edit history)

[Guest KITYCAT]

Thanks Ted! Any chance I can get a copy of the Daily Production Reports?

[Guest KITYCAT]

Hi Pete - thanks for your thoughts on rarity and values. I would tend to agree with your reasoning - especially when I see the reactions I get from people who see my wildcat. Most have never seen one but are quite impressed when they see it. My quest in finding out as much info as I can comes from the fact I acquired this car through an estate. I am considering selling it because I believe it should go to someone who will do it justice (I have some interest but I think there is an enthusiast out there who would better serve it). But before I let it go, I really want to clarify it's value. Maybe I shouldn't put it out there that I may want to sell it before I actually have a value, but I believe there are some helpful people out there that can assist.

[Jim Rohn]

Rarity does not always equate to desirability or value.

POPULAR cars, ilke a Fuel Injected Sting Ray will always have a large buying pool.

A 1 ton 57 Chevy long wheelbase panel truck is "rarer" than a 57 Chevy Bel Air convertible, but more people aspire to own a 57 Chevy convertible so the value is greater.

Take a rare 63 Buick Wildcat with a 4 speed, a Pontiac Bonnevile or Grand Prix 4 speed or an Olds Starfire of the same year, they may all be "rarer" than a 63 Chevy Super Sport 4 speed but place them in an auction setting and which one will sell for more (assuming condition, colors, options, etc are equivalent)?

The car with the bigger audience.

A 63 Rambler with a 4 speed is rare too, the audience for buying one is very small too.

Regarding each brand car, the marque people will have a special place for them, but when it comes down to it, those that know the cars best rarely purchase them. It is the most popular car that gets the bucks, so therefore the "value" is greater.

Again, IMHO and of course, YMMV.

I personally think the rare or oddly equipped cars are VERY cool.

I had a lifetime of growing up with them, in fact the car i took my driver's license test is one of them - a 1970 Ford LTD fordor sedan with a 302 V8 & a three on the tree with factory air and blackwalls. It was my dad's company car as he was up far enough at Ford Motor Company to get a company car of his choice every year as part of his pay structure.

Rare? Sure, desirable? hmmmm My dad wanted it, and that is how he ordered it, but when it came time for Ford to sell it off their pool lot, it was a turkey. In fact, the very next year Ford Motor Company would put in place some basic guideline's for company ordered vehicles. Guess what? No more three on the tree cars could be ordered. All cars had to come with whitewalls too ...

Edited June 27, 2011 by Jim Rohn (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

The next question is: KITYCAT's car has the console, which the black one I saw also had. The red interior Pete posted has a shifter plate.

Splitting hairs, sure, but I imagine that 30 cars total production, then some had console and some the floor plate, makes for a very interesting production story.

Always struck me as strange that while even Buick offered a four-speed for their personal luxury performance car, Oldsmobile stuck strictly with HydraMatic for the Starfire- and not even their best HMT at that. To their credit, Hurst did see fit to create the Dual/Gate performance automatic shifter and offer it to the Starfire/GP first.

[joe_padavano]

Rarity does not always equate to desirability or value.

What he said. There were about ten times as many Chevelles built as there were 442s during the musclecar years, yet the Chevys on average bring more dollars due to popularity. Yeah, I'm sure someone can point to a high dollar, one-of-54 1966 W-30 sale, but for run-of-the-mill 442s vs Chevelle SS cars, the Chevy will pull more at auction.

Besides, Pontiac Azteks are rare...

Also, post cars, three-on-the-tree cars, etc. These bottom of the line loss leaders were produced in low volumes and despite some ebay ads, they are NOT usually high dollar cars.

A 4spd 401 Wildcat is valuable because it is a rare, DESIRABLE car.

[Guest BJM]

The next question is: KITYCAT's car has the console, which the black one I saw also had. The red interior Pete posted has a shifter plate.

Splitting hairs, sure, but I imagine that 30 cars total production, then some had console and some the floor plate, makes for a very interesting production story.

Always struck me as strange that while even Buick offered a four-speed for their personal luxury performance car, Oldsmobile stuck strictly with HydraMatic for the Starfire- and not even their best HMT at that. To their credit, Hurst did see fit to create the Dual/Gate performance automatic shifter and offer it to the Starfire/GP first.

Glenn

I've enjoyed reading your comments. THIS is automotive history 101. Was Oldsmobile seeking an upmarket crowd and did they forfeit the "performance" image to Pontiac which went into 4 speeds, 2x3, et al in a big way?

And was Buick trying to skirt between the 2 divisions by dipping it's 4 speed toes into the water by way of 30 cars and seeing what might happen?

[padgett]

IMNSHO Oldsmobile went upscale around 1956 and Pontiac took over the performance image long before the Garbage Truck Option came out.

As to four speeds, in the sixties just about every car line had a "loss leader" with a three speed trans. Nothing could be easier than to change from a three speed to a four speed for an extra $200 on the sticker.

Pontiac got stuck on the late sixties when the 400 made too much torque for the GM three speed and had to buy ford top loaders just to have a standard "three on the tree".

I've had a lot of double digit cars but passed on the rarest Pontiac of them all when it was for sale in Lakeland - a 1966 Bonneville four speed, tripower, 4-door. One of one. Of course the fact that it was a total rust bucket had something to do with it.

[bhclark]

Kitycat,

You have a beautiful car. I LOVE the interior!

[Guest BJM]

Kitycat,

You have a beautiful car. I LOVE the interior!

Speaking of which, is that a factory interior with what looks like aqua inserts? It's still cool, but was just wondering.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

IMNSHO Oldsmobile went upscale around 1956 and Pontiac took over the performance image long before the Garbage Truck Option came out.( quote by padgett)

I always thought "GTO" was for"Get the Tools Out".

[rocketraider]

Oldsfreaks say it meant "Go To Olds" but we won't go there!

Padgett, not sure what Buick did, but Olds also had to buy Ford top-loader three-speed transmissions when the 400-425-455 completely overwhelmed the Saginaws. These are commonly known as "Dearborn" transmissions in Oldsworld. It was cheaper for Olds to outsource for the proven HD Ford unit than to redesign the Saginaw to take the big-blocks, no more three-speeds than they sold. GM returned the favor by selling QuadraJets to Ford in 1970-71 to meet emissions.

It often completely freaks novice Olds owners to learn their car has a Ford-built transmission.

[Pete Phillips]

No, the aqua stripe around the perimeter of the seats is not factory-correct. The pattern is correct, but the color was the same color as the rest of the seat upholstery in the Wildcats.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

[Guest KITYCAT]

Thanks for all your comments and compliments on my 63 Wildcat!! Appreciate all the info and thoughts - a lot more comments than anticipated - see...there is some great interest out there! OK - next question for all of your wonderful Buick experts, if I were to try to sell this car, what would be my best venue? Thanks again everyone!

[Guest BJM]

I'm afraid to say but probably ebay. You need as many eyes to see this as possible and a live auction it might get missed or worse, dismissed - by the Chevy, Ford and Mopar muscle crowd.

But most folks looking for your rare type of muscle probably search often and have it on the ebay version of "speed dial". At the price you will want, in my opinion only, there is probably only a few potential buyers out there.

I think I remember a 64 4 speed Wildcat awhile back that kept not selling and the guy was asking I think $25,000 or so? My memory is fuzzy but his reserve auctions kept ending without a sale.

Just my thoughts, not an expert here...

[Guest loadmaster]

Let me quantify "not many". In 1963, the total Wildcat 4 speed production was 30. There were also 30 Wildcats with 425's. The overlap of these two groups is beleived to be only 2 or 3 cars. There is in existence a beautiful black 4 door hardtop 425 4speed with all the toys. There's also a 425 4speed convertible being restored now.

Regards, Dave Corbin

Here's a couple pics of a friend's car. His Dad purchased it new and has all dealer paperwork. It is a 425 and is 100% original including the convertible top. Mileage in the 60s and NOT FOR SALE. Just thought I's share with you guys.

[Spw4646]

Sorry to bring up a really old post but I came across it while trying to find information about my dads car. He has a (original owner, #’s matching) 63 wildcat convertible, 401, 4 spd, with console. He ordered it new and has owned it since. Now it is in very bad shape, but still in existence. I’m guessing it’s very rare and probably almost impossible to get parts for.. He has made it clear to the family that it is my car if when his time comes, hopefully not anytime soon, but I’d like to figure out what I’ll get into to bring his only brand new car ever bought back to it’s former glory.

[padgett]

Just takes cubic money.

[rocketraider]

Based on Dave and Pete comments it's like one of a handful made. And an unusual car to boot. If it's not a rust bucket and everything's there, definitely worth restoring. You might start looking for a reasonably complete parts car and a BCA membership.

[John_S_in_Penna]

16 hours ago, Spw4646 said:

...Now it is in very bad shape, but still in existence. I’m guessing it’s very rare and probably almost impossible to get parts for...

 

It's not at all difficult to get mechanical parts for your car.

If any body parts need to be replaced, they would come from

a junkyard, and that too shouldn't be terribly hard.

 

As people noted earlier in this thread, manual-transmission

Wildcats are very rare.  That means someone will be more

likely to preserve it and restore it, rather than junk it.  Restoration

costs are high.  Everything needs to be done correctly--not with

modifications or modern approximations, which will cut a car's value--

and are labor-intensive.  Figure many tens of thousands of dollars,

or more.

 

Note, though, that rarity doesn't translate into high value--a bit higher

perhaps than an ordinary Wildcat, but not much, because people will

need to spend a lot of money on restoration.  However, car fans want

to preserve history, so some will spend money to restore a car while

knowing that the end value won't come close to recouping their expenses. 

 

The car hobby is fun.  If you're new at it, you might want to sell your

family Wildcat rather than restore it for $100,000, despite the

sentimentality, and instead get another nice Wildcat, running,

operating perfectly, and good looking, for $15,000. 

 

I hope this realistic view helps you!

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[cheezestaak2000]

there was a funny story circulating at the wilmington plant.  when i worked there in 1964, i asked if they even made a wildcat 4 speed. i was told that  they had made a few there but stopped. it seems someone got in one to move it, floored the gas and hit the key (remember, no clutch safety switch back then) and proceeded to crash it through a garage door. after that no more 4 speeds built there.

[padgett]

Probably because in 63, someone wanting a go-fast two door bough a Grand Prix with 421 and 4 speed (but could not get full instrumentation with AC or I would have had a 63 at some point. Think 63, 67, and 70 were GM vintage years.

[Ed Luddy]

There's a 4 speed Wildcat for sale here in Ontario. Needs restoration, wants big$$$, been for sale for a few years. Still available.

[padgett]

A lot of people removed the clutch switch because they were scared they could not crank themselves off a railroad track. Have driven a car with a cracked disk (common with stock GM 10 spline disks) that let the springs escape several hundred miles from Oklahoma to Ft. Worth. Jag transmissions were good practice for clutchless driving. Just connect the big purple wires together.

 

Was also popular to disconnect the linkage that would not release the key unless in reverse. Could always tell those who had - were the ones driving around with the back up lights on.

 

Have thought that performance people of the time mostly ignored Buick because they had a Dynaflow automagic and a full set of gauges was not available. You could buy a 4-speed Grand Prix with 8 lugs but not a Riviera.

 

On return from SEA I bought a new GS because the "sweep spears" were gone and I could add all the options I wanted including 15x7 wheels & a real plus was that in 1970 Buick was thought a "Doctor's Car" but the specs said something different. Also coming from Jags, the 455 having under a 4" stroke was a Big Thing to me

[60FlatTop]

Did he pull an Airstream trailer? People weren't trusting automatic transmissions if they were around 40 at that time. My Dad didn't buy a new car with one until 1966. And he always bought full sized Chevys and Fords.

 

You state it was his only new car. Does he know it will cost you the enjoyment of at least two cars to restore it? A non-sentimental talk could help a lot. I have seen a lot of inheritances turn into family curses over the years. The final disposition of the patriarch's car has ruined a lot of Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners. The ones seen through rose colored glasses do the most damage.

 

Bernie

[rocketraider]

On 8/8/2020 at 3:06 PM, cheezestaak2000 said:

 it seems someone got in one to move it, floored the gas and hit the key 

Was Buick still using that starting system as late as '64?

 

Story's told that Olds Lansing replaced a whole lot of parking lot fence in '64 when Jetstar 88s got into the motor pool. Seems ppl were used to PNDSLR HydraMatics and when a crowd would get in a Jetaway PRNDL J88 for a lunch run, they often went forward thru the fence instead of backing out of the parking space 🤯. This was before they'd had their 3 martini lunches...

 

 

 

[padgett]

and the rest of the story: before the fed got involved PNDLR was common to rock a stuck car out of sand/mud/snow.

Then it was mandated that PRNDL was the law of the land, typewriters were out, and soon Harley had to come up with a screwy linkage to move the shifter to the left.

[rocketraider]

1965 was a wurry good year, no?

 

Always figured the AT shift pattern standardization was a swipe at GM though it did away with Chrysler's sensible pushbutton selectors too. All in the name of being able to bid on government motorpool contracts. Hey, can't help if guvmink employees didn't have sense enough to look at what they were about to operate... or Oldsmobile office folks!😆

[padgett]

Suspect more jumping into a rent car and trying to figure it out particularly when the shifter could be pushbuttons or levers and on the right, left, in the steering wheel (Edsel), in the console,  or in the dash (Corvair/Tempest).. I had the same problem with an Avis Cutlass in 1970 after a few eons in SEA. They did finally add arrows to the gas gauge to tell which side the filler is on.

 

Did take me a while to find the hidden gas filler on the Allante. Was made for height impaired people who also needed a clear sight path through the steering wheel.

[Pfeil]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:18 AM, padgett said:

 

 

 

 

You could buy a 4-speed Grand Prix with 8 lugs but not a Riviera.

 

 

 

That's like saying you could order a 421 in a Pontiac Grand Prix, but not in a Riviera. DUH 

Eight Lug Pontiac wheels are a PONTIAC feature option for Pontiac's and Buick wildcat wheels are for Buicks, and Saber wheels are for Cadillac.

 

Dynaflow is a "automatic" transmission and not a automagic

[padgett]

No but a 401 was available, dual quads even. Was talking about instruments and better (8-Lug) brakes.

 

"Dynaflow is a "automatic" transmission and not a automagic" Gee gosharootie I never would have guessed