Green Dragon: Peerless T-head (Teetor-Hartley?): Help!!

[Guest noncompos]

Teetor-Hartley thumbnails state they "furnished engines to" 14 or so cars, including Peerless, without specifying which engines when, etc (all company records reportedly thrown away years ago). I've only found 4s and 6s for actual T-Hs; some (all?) were T-heads.

While I'm way out of my depth here, Peerless histories online state they built their own T-head engines, and make no mention of any T-H engines.

As the T-H list includes Marmon, Waukesha (there was a 1906-10 Waukesha car, built by the engine firm, per Std Cat) and Wisconsin (the only Wisconsin in Std Cat was a proposed 1914 cyclecar, which seems unlikely, but the engine firm did build T-heads) I'm wondering if "...furnished engines to..." might well've been, in actuality, other engine builders buying a few simply for comparison purposes, to see what the competition was up to.

Have you run across any Peerless/T-H connections in your readings or discussions, or any possibilities?? My apologies if this's been hashed out before my fickle curiosity was piqued. Many thxx!! Bud

[Richard Lichtfel]

I have never heard of Teetor-Hartley engines and I have never seen anything in my Peerless archives. Peerless designed and built all their own engines until the late 20's. The one and two cylinder was designed by Albert Misch and the four and six cylinder was designed by Louis Moorers. The standard Peerless engine was a T head but the Green Dragon race car was an overhead valve four. 1914 was the last year for the Peerless T head engine, in 1915 they built an L head four and six they called the All Purpose Engine. In 1916 they had only their V-8 which was very similar to the Hershell-Spillman V-8. In 1926 Peerless started using some Continental engines. If Peerless used a Teetor-Hartley engine there is no record of it

[Guest noncompos]

GD: Many thxx for reply; please forgive late thxx--having internet connection problems, first time I've been able to get back into site. Bud

[Rusty_OToole]

Is it possible Peerless subcontracted engine work to Teetor Hartley as Ford did to the Dodge brothers in the early days? This could account for TH claiming to have "Furnished engines" when the engines were of Peerless design.

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

I think that the more we try to unravel the mysteries of TH, the more mysteries we find. I spoke to Richard tonight and discussed the TH Anstead connections. Richard stated that it was requested by the Empire Company that Teetors not put any of their own ID on their engines. He stated that everyone knew that Teetors built them, but Empire claimed to have their own engines. Which in a way I could understand, but it sure makes it hard to figure all this out. So I wonder if this is not the case with Peerless and a few others.............

[Guest noncompos]

The Empire thing was not unusual among builders of "assembled" cars, there being two schools of thought:

(1) those that felt freely advertising that their cars had Cont engines, Bosch ign, Stromberg Carb, Brown Lipe clutch etc etc would show prospective customers that their car had the best, tried and true components...

(2) those that felt such admissions indicated the car was just another assembled car, with nothing original to recommend it, set it apart from the crowd or attract customers...

Established producers, caught with production problems or seeking cheaper subcontractors, were often reluctant to admit "farming out" was done for fear of raising questions about the viability of the company; loss of prospective buyer confidence could be fatal.

With the lapse of time, the passing of parties originally involved, the loss/destruction of records, these mysteries arise.

[Richard Lichtfel]

It is hard to say for certain if Peerless built all there own engines. They did have a large foundry and machine shop and were building transmissions for the De-Dion-Button before they were building auto's. They were also making parts for several other car manufacturers in Cleveland. So they had the facilities. I have pictures of the Peerless factory showing the foundry and engine plant casting and machining their own engines. However, the 1916 Peerless model 56 V-8 is exactly, down to the last nut & bolt, identical to the 1915-1916 Hirshell-Spillman V-8 engine. And yet I can find no connection with Peerless and Hershell-Spillman. Who knows??

[alextheantiqueautoguy]

On 6/17/2011 at 4:26 PM, Richard Lichtfel said:

I have never heard of Teetor-Hartley engines and I have never seen anything in my Peerless archives. Peerless designed and built all their own engines until the late 20's. The one and two cylinder was designed by Albert Misch and the four and six cylinder was designed by Louis Moorers. The standard Peerless engine was a T head but the Green Dragon race car was an overhead valve four. 1914 was the last year for the Peerless T head engine, in 1915 they built an L head four and six they called the All Purpose Engine. In 1916 they had only their V-8 which was very similar to the Hershell-Spillman V-8. In 1926 Peerless started using some Continental engines. If Peerless used a Teetor-Hartley engine there is no record of it

 

I don't think the one and two-cylinder Peerless engines (1900-1902) were designed by Misch, these were the engines that Peerless had been making for De Dion-Bouton.  The 1903 16-hp 2-cylinder engine was designed by Louis Mooers (correct spelling) and his descriptions indicate they built them in-house, though it is only categorically stated that they assembled the engines.

Teetor Hartley made engine components for some manufacturers including Franklin and Auburn. I have never seen a reference to pre-1915 Peerless using Teetor-Harley engines except on forums like this.

In 1915 Peerless used both a 4-cyl and a 6-cyl engines in their "All Purpose Line." That line of cars lasted only one year, Peerless officials said they lost money selling them as cheaply as they did. Next year's (1916) V-8 cars actually sold for LESS that the 4s and 6s, so something doesn't add up.

The Peerless V-8 engines of 1916 and later, the so-called "Two-power range engines" were supplied by Hershell-Spillman.