Tire question

[impala]

I can't seem to find the rule book on the site anymore (am I missing it?) so I have a question. My 61 Impala convertible originally came with 8:00 X 14" Firestone Deluxe Champions or BF Goodrich Silvertowns. The Firestones in that size are no longer available so I'm going with the BFG's.

The question: The original Firestone spare has never been used so for originality issues I would like to keep it as the spare. Is there going to be a point deduction if the spare is a different brand from what is on the car keeping in mind that both mfg's are correct for the year and model..

impala

[Shop Rat]

This is the link to the 2011 Official Juding Guidelines.

http://www.aaca.org/publications/manuals/judges/2011_Judges_Guidelines.pdf

[MCHinson]

No problem. From the judging guidelines...

"17. Batteries, headlights, belts, tires, hoses

and clamps may be of modern manufacture,

but must be visually of the era of the

vehicle and of the type specified by the

vehicle manufacturer. Specific brand is not

important."

"11. Tires on all vehicles must be as specified

by manufacturer. Specific brand is unimportant."

[impala]

Thanks to both responses.

I was wanting to keep the original spare for nostalgic/originality reasons but was unsure how the judges would rate a different mfg. spare tire.

The rules seem clear as to my situation.

impala

[Guest Siegfried]

Impala, I'm an AACA Judge, and I recall that a Chassis judge on a team I was assigned to questioned the fact that two different brand tires were on a car our team was judging. The front two were a different brand than were the rear two. The spare did not match either brand. The VP Class Judging was consulted, and he said a point deduction was warranted. It seemed to me that all four tires on the ground have to be the same brand. The spare was ignored in his decision.

I think you should sent your question to the VP Class Judging for the correct ruling. Herb Oates is the VP of C. J.

[Shop Rat]

Vehicles that were build prior to 1915 fall under the rule listed below.

This is in the 2011 Offical Judging Guidelines on page 22, number 9 under the heading Chassis.

9. Prior to 1915, tires must be matched in

pairs (front and rear), but spares need not

match anything on the vehicle

except each

other. (If there’s more than one size spare,

they will naturally

differ.)

[impala]

I will send Herb the question as there is a slight doubt in my mind about the spare being a different mfg.

But thinking more about it my 61 is one of the ragtops that has the spare mounted on the upper shelf and I believe the top well material lays on the tire preventing any identification without picking the material up off of the tire.

Yes the four tires on the ground will be identical.

impala

[MCHinson]

You can contact Herb if you want to, but I suspect that the incident that Semi-Intelligent refers to happened before the current tire rules were updated. The Judging Guidelines are quite specific.... in two separate locations, that the tire brand does not matter.

[sambarn]

Also, your top has to be up for judging

[impala]

Also, your top has to be up for judging

Yeah I realize that the top has to be up. The well liner has nothing to do with the top being up or down. It always stays in the same place on top of the spare.

impala

[Guest proxie35]

When you attend an AACA Judging School, One of the first things they say is. We Judge Cars

As They Left The Factory, Not As They Leave The Dealer. I beleive they left the factory with 5

matching tires, at least in the 50s-70s.

[MCHinson]

proxie35,

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. While I may personally disagree with some things in the Judging Guidelines, I think that you might also remember that we are supposed to follow the guidelines, and not our personal preferences. Tire brand is unimportant according to the guidelines.

[Guest proxie35]

Mat. I've been a life AACA member for the past 45 years. A retired Master Senior Judge & have restored more than 50 automobiles for myself, for show. Thanks for your reply, Sherrel

PS, I'm not new to the forum, just a new name. Back years past,

Bill Stoneberg, hvs, ronbarn, novaman & red t (myself) had alot of

great discussions here.

Edited June 9, 2011 by proxie35 (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

It is correct that the brand of tires does not matter according to the Offical Juding Guidelines. Just as the brand of headlights does not matter according to the Guidelines.

However, they should match by brand (whatever one the owner picks), and era within the brand, if the vehicle came out of the factory with them matching, either in pairs in the front and pairs in the rear or all the way around depending on how they came from the factory.

There should not be a Goodyear, a Firestone, Bridgestone, a B.F. Goodrich and a Kelly tire. There would be a deduction for tires that are not matched as they came out of the factory. For non-matching headlights there would be a one point deduction if the owner had put in a T-3, a Westinghouse, a FoMoCo and a General Electric headlight.

[Guest Siegfried]

Just to make sure the facts are correctly understood on my earlier response involving two different brand of tires.

Here are the facts:

1. The show was the Eastern Division Spring Meet for 2008 in West Virginia.

2. The incident I mentioned is correct and accurate as I described it.

3. There were three national AACA officers present when the decision was

presented to the car owner concerning the tires. There names are not

important.

4. IF the tire rules changed again since 2008 please let me know.

[Guest Siegfried]

When you attend an AACA Judging School, One of the first things they say is. We Judge Cars

As They Left The Factory, Not As They Leave The Dealer. I beleive they left the factory with 5

matching tires, at least in the 50s-70s.

Proxie35, THANK YOU.

'WE JUDGE CARS AS THEY LEFT THE FACTORY!'

I've heard that statement every year at judging school since 1995.......

The car was a 70tys era machine.

My personal feeling is that IF you present a car for judging, or evaluation (HPOF, DPC, etc) then the tires should match all the way around. And if the spare is the original, and you drove the car you were real lucky you didn't need the spare. Imagine putting a spare from the 70tys on the road!

[Shop Rat]

Just to make sure the facts are correctly understood on my earlier response involving two different brand of tires.

Here are the facts:

1. The show was the Eastern Division Spring Meet for 2008 in West Virginia.

.....

S. I., where in W. Va. was the meet held? Here is list of 2008 Meets and I don't see one held in W. Va.

2008 Meet Results:

Grand National - Melbourne, FL - March 14, 2008

Winter Meet - Melbourne, FL - March 15, 2008

Charlotte, NC - April 5, 2008

Tucson, AZ - April 27, 2008

Cumberland, MD - May 17, 2008

Hastings, NE - June 28, 2008

Mason City, IA - August 23, 2008

Cleveland, TN - September 20, 2008

San Diego - September 27, 2008

Hershey, PA - October 11, 2008

Edited June 11, 2011 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

Proxie35, THANK YOU.

'WE JUDGE CARS AS THEY LEFT THE FACTORY!'

I've heard that statement every year at judging school since 1995.......

The car was a 70tys era machine.

My personal feeling is that IF you present a car for judging, or evaluation (HPOF, DPC, etc) then the tires should match all the way around. And if the spare is the original, and you drove the car you were real lucky you didn't need the spare. Imagine putting a spare from the 70tys on the road!

DPC has several exceptions to the regular "rules" so that owners will bring those vehicles out.

I posted a copy of the current tire rules above. That is what we go by. Personal feelings don't matter when it comes down to taking deductions, or not taking them. We must follow the guidelines set forth by the AACA. Anyone that does not agree can plead their case to the AACA to have rules changed. But it does not happen on the show field or here.

[impala]

Well as I had assumed there would be a difference of opinion on here.

That's why I presented the question to Herb as Susan suggested.

His answer is clear that there should be no deduction if the spare is a different manufacturer than the four tires on the ground. I will print out his response and present it for judging if necessary as he suggests.

As I said earlier the car came with either Firestone Deluxe Champions or BF Goodrich Silvertowns and since it's a convertible the size is 8:00 X 14. Since you can no longer get the Firestones in that size I have no choice but to go with the BFG's. Yes it did leave the factory with five Firestones which is now not possible to duplicate.

I personally see no problem with four BFG's on the ground and the original Firestone spare and AACA doesn't either.

impala

[Shop Rat]

Thanks for letting us know the ruling that Herb sent to you. You just can't go wrong with asking the person in charge for such information. And having a copy of his ruling should put to rest any additional questions from Team Captains. Herb is a good guy.

[Restorer32]

I don't think there was a National AACA show in West Virginia in 2008. Likely a Regional show using some modified form of AACA National judging.

[Guest Siegfried]

OK, this is my last post on this topic, and any topic for that matter!!!!!

1. The show was spring 2008, and it was a NATIONAL Meet. I thought it was in W.V.. It appears I was WRONG. I do recall a roadsign that stated FLINSTONE on it. If the show was in Cumberland then, I APOLOGIZE for my mistake.

2. Regardless of my personal preference concerning HPOF and DPC (my cars are shown as HPOF and DPC) I still have ALL 4 tires on the ground as matching by manufacturer and size.

3. MY PERSONAL PREFERENCES DO NOT 'EVER' ENTER INTO HOW I JUDGE A CAR WHETHER IT BE A NATIONAL MEET, OR ANY sHOW And it is NOT welcome for anyone to remotely suggest that they do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am out of here. Happy Trails. You have convinced me that the FORUM, as some have told me, is a _______ of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Siegfried]

Well as I had assumed there would be a difference of opinion on here.

That's why I presented the question to Herb as Susan suggested.

His answer is clear that there should be no deduction if the spare is a different manufacturer than the four tires on the ground. I will print out his response and present it for judging if necessary as he suggests.

As I said earlier the car came with either Firestone Deluxe Champions or BF Goodrich Silvertowns and since it's a convertible the size is 8:00 X 14. Since you can no longer get the Firestones in that size I have no choice but to go with the BFG's. Yes it did leave the factory with five Firestones which is now not possible to duplicate.

I personally see no problem with four BFG's on the ground and the original Firestone spare and AACA doesn't either.

impala

IMPALA, Thank You for following through with the contact to Herb.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I have not been on the forum very much so excuse this late response. I can unequivocally state (there is documentation to this effect) that there have been times in the 70's and 80's that spare tires did not match the four tires on the ground at GM. It was not the usual case but there were several instances of tire shortages that led to this issue. I was a Olds dealer at the time and had to deal with that issue. Of course you also had the inflateable tire deal for awhile and the "donut".

[Guest Siegfried]

Steve,

Thanks for your reply.

[impala]

I have not been on the forum very much so excuse this late response. I can unequivocally state (there is documentation to this effect) that there have been times in the 70's and 80's that spare tires did not match the four tires on the ground at GM. It was not the usual case but there were several instances of tire shortages that led to this issue. I was a Olds dealer at the time and had to deal with that issue. Of course you also had the inflateable tire deal for awhile and the "donut".

I vaguely remember that as being the case while working at gas stations and garages back in the day.

Thanks for re-affirming that and jogging my memory.

impala

[West Peterson]

When you attend an AACA Judging School, One of the first things they say is. We Judge Cars As They Left The Factory, Not As They Leave The Dealer.

Why hasn't this statement gone unchallenged? If that statement is made in judging schools, it is obviously not followed once the judges hit the show field.

Factory approved dealer installed accessories are judged to be "okay" hundreds of times at each show. So, we do judge cars as they could have left the dealer. Am I not understanding something?

Many of the following examples were NEVER installed at the factory (depending on the make/year/model of the car):

non-black wheels on Ford Model A's, along with white sidewall tires. Aftermarket driving lights

Aftermarket bumpers

Aftermarket running board luggage racks

Luggage racks on the back of Corvettes

Aftermarket Spot lights

Aftermarket E&J/Ryan/etc. headlights

Trunks

Buffalo/Houk/Rudge Whitworth wheels

Aftermarket hood ornaments

Aftermarket bumpers

Aftermarket steering wheels

Pines Winterfront radiator covers

[MCHinson]

West,

I think that Steve and I both challenged it in the context of the discussion, if not specifically arguing that the standard is as it left the factory + any factory authorized accessories.

Now since we are sort of off on a tangent from the original question, in your example, I find something else to challenge...

Only in 1928-1929 did Model A Ford Wheels come in the standard color of Black. In 1930 and 1931 there were many different Model A Ford Wheel Colors from the factory. If you really want to split hairs, in 1928 and 1929, you could also order different colors on Ford wheels from Ford on Fleet Orders.

The Whitewall Tires on Model A Fords are accepted for judging by AACA because they are grandfathered into the judging system since they were originally accepted when the judging system was developed. I still think this is a mistake. I don't like it, but those are the current rules, so I have to ignore my personal distaste for them.

Edited November 18, 2011 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Note that I said, "depending on make/year/model of car"