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Pilot or Davis and McFarland owners


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Sorry about the late reply; been following the meltdown(s) (nuclear and financial)...

On the hagerstown.in.gov website there's a thumbnail of T-H, listing fifteen cars (including your three) that T-H was reportedly supplying engines to, but no mention of which engines...

My old engine parts catalogs have very few TH listings as most parts companies didn't stock parts (or didn't list in catalogs but maybe could supply some on special order).

Any possibility your T-H could've also been marketed as a Light?? (the Light "H" doesn't seem to match the T-H "H" in the Pilot, showing the Light "H" as a 4cyl with a different bore.

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Unfortunately I don't own one. I'm a historian on Teetor Hartley and am interested in speaking with anyone who owns one. I wonder if the "Light" you speak of was meant for the Light Inspection Car Company? That is the name that they were first sold under in the early years. Teetor Hartley name didn't come into play until 1909. They made several different size engines. I know more on the company as a whole than I do about specific engines sizes. I am trying to learn more about the specific engines and sizes. My main interest, until as of late, were the railway inspection cars. I lived in Hagerstown for 16 years and got involved with the history of the company. Always wanting to learn more. Richmond Museum has both Davis and Pilot cars on display, but are later cars in the 20's. Teetor Hartley sold off the engine works late in 1919 to Anstead in Connersville. The funny thing about the transaction is that TH never got paid a dime of their money.

Edited by Xprefix28truck (see edit history)
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Kent: Yes, ran across the Light/T-H connection looking for info on the "Light" engines used in tractors; I'd seen the T-H name in car references in past years but at that time was earlier than my interests, so paid little attention.

Neither Light nor T-H appeared often enough in my present field of interest to add to my engine lists (compiled primarily from old parts catalogs and these forums, concentrated on trucks, ag/const/ind'l uses).

A 1917 Burd piston ring catalog does show three T-H engines:

1917 "H" 6cyl 31/8 bore, 4-ring piston;

1917 "A-17" 4cyl 37/8 bore, 3-rings;

1917 "T-17" 6cyl 41/2 bore, 5-ring (unusual).

It also lists one Light: the "H" 4cyl 31/4 bore, 3-rings. That catalog shows no stroke figures. It covers mostly 1915-17, with a scattered few as early as 1910.

Neither a 1930 McCord gasket catalog nor a 38 Victor gasket catalog show any Light engine; both do show a T-H "H" 6cyl BUT as a 3x5. Neither show any years.

A few industrial engines were issued by their mfrs in more than one bore, using the same number or letter ID, but it was unusual; it's also possible the 1917 catalog was a misprint, altho Burd, like McCord and Victor, was a well known mfr.

You'll find a few T-H threads on smokstak-search Teetor and they'll come up-which may or may not be interesting. Will eyeball my other catalogs as time permits and advise any other engine info; I need to start a list anyway. With sympathy, Bud

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Does anyone know what became of the McFarland that was in Elizabeth City, North Carolina a few years back? It was owned by a guy named Bill Sablom who had moved down from New Jersey. I discovered him by accident one day while driving through Elizabeth City. He was trying to start up an antique shop but was having problems with the city and the building he was in. He had some neat early auto stuff in the shop and later he invited me to stop at his home to look at more stuff he had packed away. In the garage was the McFarland touring car. Believe it had a blue body on it. I bought a few nice items but eventually he closed the shop and now doesn't seem to be anywhere around there. I've heard he had an older son who still resides in the area but no contact info. It was a neat car.

Terry

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A small nitpick here Xprefix, but as you are a historian I am sure you like to get things right. There is no 'd' on McFarlan. I wonder if the T-H sale to Anstead had something to do with McFarlan also being in Connersville.

Also it is not 4's, 6's and 60's but 4s,6s and '60s. Apostrophes are only used to denote a missing letter or digit.

There was some discussion on Teetor-Hartley some time ago but I am not sure whether it was on this site. I was about an odd engine someone had found which had been converted to a pump I think.

Did T-H also supply engines to American Underslung?

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Kent: I was WRONG on the Light engine connection; when I checked my notes I found I'd crossed out the connection to your Light; the Light tractor engines were built by Light Mf'g & Foundry Co, Pottstown, PA, and were used in the early 20's.

I did find one possible tractor connection: the Lawter tractor (Lawter Tractor Co, Newcastle, IN) may've used a T-H engine in its original 1913 model; later models, to their end in 1916 or so, used a large Wauk 43/4x61/4...some quick Googling turned up ref's to the later models, but nothing on the original 1913 for verification.

There's no engine list in Marjories book?? No company catalogs/brochures in the Hagerstown pub lib/Hist Soc old document collections?? No local advertising in the local paper(s) of the period??

T-H just don't get much respect; the Std Cat Am Cars 1805-1942 only mentions them in McF and Pilot, but no details...

All the independent engine mfr's I'm familiar with (mostly truck/ag) used some letter/number/combination ID for their different models if for no other reason than to track mfg. With sympathy, Bud

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Thank you for the correction on the "d" in McFarlan. I should have known this...so don't know what happened. And I never payed much attention in English class either. So forgive me on the improper use of the apostrophes no harm intended.

The earlier discussion about TH was me. I posted the info on the converted engine into a water pump. The converted engine was a 1916 Hall Scott.

Yes, TH supplied engines to American. The first were sold under the name Light Inspection Car Company. I have seen several for the Americans.

I saw a beautiful McFarlan today. Pictures posted in a new thread.

Marjorie has no engine info at all. I talk on the phone and email her regularly. She was told all info was "tossed" out when Dana bought Perfect Circle.

I am still checking for things here in New Castle, but believe it or not, I seem to have more info than they do. New Castle Museum seems to only have very limited info on hometown companies. They have many nice displays but not much mechanical. I am still trying to check newspapers.

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A small addition to Sam's post. Not only did the McFarlan engine have three plugs per cylinder with magneto and coil ignition but the almost sixhundred cubic inch flathead six had four valves per cylinder. Obviously the accountants at this company had no say in what the engineering department did! It must have been a lot of fun to give this thing a tuneup and synchronizing the distributor and magneto.

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Kent: Not much more in the way of engine info (will post later) but three questions:

I find a rather primitive 1925 Perfect Circle (on the cover) catalog in my batch, with "Teetor Perfect Circle Piston Rings" logo on an inside page and the back cover, about 20 inside pgs but double column. That inside page says pub by Indiana Piston Ring Co., Hagerstown, IN. Covers cars and trucks; it only shows two Teetors: Auburn 1916-17 (no model desig) a 31/8 6cyl (no eng desig), and possibly ?? the same eng in Pilot #645 (6cyl #45??) 1917-21 ID'd as the Teetor "H". This catalog has no "Motors" section.

There's also a more comprehensive 1933 Perf Circle catalog (98 inside pgs, no mention of Teetor) with a "Motors" section: Budas from 1912, Hercs from 1915, (the rest mostly from 1925) but no T-H listing at all; so:

(1)why didn't they list their own engines, or at least the more popular ones, in their own 1933 catalog???

(2) If the "engine" business was sold in 1918, Anstead/Lexington apparently kept line going to go into 1917-1921 Pilots, etc, ???

(3) I've never gotten into the "Anstead" engine (I show at least two models, but same b/s); any known connection between the T-H engines and the Anstead(s)???

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Kent: Haven't found much on engines, and most is confusing due to lack of speciic engine ID's, nor do I have time to really pursue this increasingly fascinating inquiry (everyone loves a mystery!).

Still, it's too much, with comments, to clutter forum with; will send emails in next few days. Good luck with your researches.

Take care. Bud (Bud Tierney/noncompos/clueless/nc mentis)

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  • 2 weeks later...

The main reason that the forum is here is so that it can get cluttered up with stuff. It is just as easy to type it here on the forum as it would be to send it in a private message. It would seem that there are several people looking forward to the clutter. Bring it on!

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I've noted (and appreciated) the comments re' "clutter"; I didn't reply as I assumed XP would, as he has. Other than what I've sent him, I only have insubstantial (unsubtantiated??) guesses. It's his research project; I've never really been into this period's cars/engines, so I've only contributed some minor peripheral items out of piqued curiosity.

When he posts I'll add anything new I might've found, but don't be surprised if it's not just more loose ends.

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I am going to put some info out here for comments. It is a compilation of info received from Bud and Alan Wolff, both fellow members here. I have checked this info with what I have and put it all together. Unfortunately the info Bud sent doesn't list the engine stroke. Just cylinder diameter and number of rings. I can't believe how "muddy" this has all become. It seems to me that as someone needed an engine, they would simply pick out what they wanted from Continental and have the Teetors build what they picked out. Or the Teetors sourced the requirements. The odd thing that stands out the most is the type and style of engines built. For the ones that have looked at Teetor Hartley products, I think you will understand. One would think that as a certain "T" head design became outdated it would no longer be used. Reason being new styles might work and perform better. This is not the case at any point. I have seen early "T" head engines that look like one would think, kind of primitive in design. Yet see a later car with the original engine still in and still look primitive. Yet a car in between these 2 have a more modern looking "T" head in it. There are just to many different engine designs to make sense of. Since no records of types or anything else seem to exist, this is causing the "muddy waters". It is very disturbing to find a 1910 auto, with a nice mono block engine with all cylinders cast in one piece, then find a 1913 auto with a "T" head engine with the cyliders cast in pairs of 2. I can't seem to find any rhym or reason as to why things were done the way they were. I do know that Teetors and Anstead built engines together after the sale. But for just a short period of time. That info is still coming and will be supplied by Richard Stanley, (Ansted historian) He says that he has complete info on these engines. But this will not help me on the engines built by Teetor Hartley, or the Light Inspection Car Company. If anyone has any more documents to help fill in the gaps, please let me know. Here is what we have so far.

designation, type, #cylinders, bore, stroke, #of rings, note

AA, ?, 4, 3 1/4, ?, 4

AC, AE , ?, 4, 3 7/8, ?, 4

H, H18, H19, 19H, ?, 6, 3 1/2, ?, 4

H16, ?, 6, 3, ?, 4

N,O, ?, 4, 4 1/2, ?, 4

R , ?, 4, 4, ?, 4

S17,T17, ?, 4, 4 1/2, ?, 4

T18,T19, ?, 4, 4 1/2, ?, 5

The only difference between the N,O,S17,T17, are the ring thickness sizes.

?, T, 4, 4 3/8, 5, ?, (1)

?, T, 6, 4 1/2, 6, ?, (2)

?, T, 6, 4, 6, ?, (3)

T, T, ? , ?, ?, ?, (4)

(H16 maybe), L, 6, 3, 5, ?, (5)

?, T, 6, 3 7/8, 5 1/4, ?, (6)

C, T, 6, 3 7/8, 5 3/8, ?, (7)

?, T, 4, 3 7/8, 5, ?, (8)

H, L, 6, 3 1/8, 5, ?, (9)

There seems to be 2 engines designated a model "BB". One is a 6 cylinder 3.5 bore 5.25 stroke "T" head. The other "BB" is a 4 cylinder 3.875 bore, no stroke given.

Autos that they were used in are as follows. See the right hand column above for the "note" number found in the parentheses.

note #1 used in the 1912 Underslung

note #2 used in the 1914 Underslung

1916-1918 McFarlan "X"

1918 McFarlan 127

1919-1920 McFarlan 90 (Teetor Anstead engine?)

note #3 1921-1924 Pilot 6-45 (Teetor Anstead engine?)

note #4 1913, 1915,1916 Pilot 6-60

1916 McFarlan 6-T

note #5 1916 Pilot 6-45

note #6 1916 Pilot 6-55

note #7 1915 Lexington

note #8 1916 Auburn 4-38

1916,1917 Empire 45

1916 Lexington 4-KA

note #9 1917 Auburn 6-39

1918,1919 Pilot 6-45 (Teetor Anstead?)

The 6 cylinder "BB" was used in 1915 Pilot 55

Connersville Museum has a 1913 Empire with engine CE31-72C. No other tags were evident on the engine.

I am sorry that this looks so "stuffed" together. I took my time and did everything in nice rows, but when I posted it, all the spaces were gone. Sorry. Just remember the sequence when looking at a given engine.

Edited by Xprefix28truck (see edit history)
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It's late here at the moment, and I haven't had time to digest the above, so will just add:

(1) the first batch of T-H engine ID's (AA thru T19) are from the piston ring section of a June 1932 King Products catalog; per that catalog the N, O, R, T18 and T19 had 1/4" width rings; all others had 3/16. I believe King may've became McQuay-Norris, as catalog format exactly the same.

Oddly, Perfect Circle, fmly Indiana Piston Ring, fmly T-H, didn't list T-H engines in their own 1933 catalog !??!

NOTE: Old parts catalogs are not always reliable sources, due to misprints, erroneous info from original source, production changes after original info acquired or during production run, ad nauseum.

(2) the "H" listed in (1) above shows 31/8 bore; BUT both a 30 McCord and 38 Victor gasket catalogs show the "H" as a 3x5...misprint somewhere?? A few builders did issue a very few engines of the same ID with more than one bore (Cont "O", 3 diff bores; Climax "K", two bores) but it seems very rare. So..???

Will add anything else I can when I can focus my eyes again. Bud

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Other info that I have found tells about the sale of TH to Ansted. I have documents that show where TH built an engine plant in Connersville after the sale. There are documents that show the contract amount billed to TH for the lighting and heating and type of building built. At the same time Ansted was building another building of their own. I have no info at this time as to where the "supposed" Teetor Hartley-Ansted engines were built. As soon as Richard Stanley and I can sit down to discuss this, I will post some info on that aspect. I would love some more input from others on these topics.

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I can probably muddy the waters just a bit more. The two TH engines that I have are 6 cylinder T heads. One is 4-1/2 X 6 (572 ci) and the other is 4 X 6 (452 ci). The bigger engine dates to 1915 and the smaller engine is dated 1913. The prefix on the serial number of the smaller engine is RS and the bigger engine has a T prefix on the serial number. Based on the serial numbers of the few existing engines that I have an RS, S, or T prefix seems to be pretty consistent for the big six cylinder T heads that Teetor Hartley built. The six cylinder engines introduced by TH in 1913 for the 1914 model year were probably designed by Teetor Hartley and made available to various manufacturers. The ads below show an engine that was used by Pilot in some of their cars and probably also used by other auto manufacturers.

The photo shows a TH engine built for McFarlan. It was supplied by Kent. One thing interesting about these engine is that the cylinder block is symmetric and it can be rotated to change on which side of the car the intake and exhaust are placed. On the McFarlan the intake is on the left. American use the same basic engine but put the intake on the right hand side of the car. And the crankcases are common to the 452 ci and 572 ci engines The cylinder blocks are interchangeable.

Earlier TH engines were basically a Continental design and produced for American Motor Car Company by the Light Inspection Car Company. Continental did not have the capacity to produce engines for American but did supply the raw castings and parts. American contracted LICC to build the engines. This is per Walt Seely's history of American in the July August 1972 AACA magazine.

Alan

Teetor-Hartley_Data-01.jpg

Teetor-Hartley_Data-04.jpg

36501.jpg

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Sheesh: been unable to get into site (or most others); punched it in tonight and went right thru!!!

Didn't check my notes for anything to add (didn't expect to get in); I assume you've seen replies to my posts on the Marmon and Peerless forums. I'm more and more open to the belief that some of those makes named just used Teetor/Indiana piston rings, not whole engines.

Kent: if my email re' Corky Coker/Coker Tire/Marmon Wasp didn't come thru, email--at least the email seems to be OK.

No reply from alfowners, so I assume my application to forum deleted as spam. Bud

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Are there any owners lurking around on here that would email and discuss their car with me ?.

Hey Xprefix28truck....

I can't help you much with any of those names.... but could we discuss that big water pump engine you were going to drag back to your shop last October?

I could be specially interested in offering you a real good deal on the thing if it's still taking up too much room in your shop. What do I have that you need?

Let's talk

Mike

Postscript

Hey Kent.... I s'pose you'd call it sheer synchronicity.... but by inevitable mere chance I came across my message to you.... and I'd only just finished typing the above when I found you'd already responded.

I spotted that it's a Hall Scott A7A... severely modified of course, but it could be possible to rebuild it as original. I have a 1920 Avions Voisin, built by the famous French airplane designer... the original sleeve-valve engine vanished during the War

(nah, the Truman War.... not Obama's abomination)

That Hall-Scott would be just the motor Gabriel Voisin would have us fit if he were still around to direct restoration.

Actually, if Voisin had anything to say... it would probably be to advise me not to waste time rebuilding his stupid old car and to spend my days more productively.... pursuing women was his favorite occupation apparently.

Of course, he was invariably correct....

A friend downunder has all the parts and skills to rebuild Hall-Scotts... there's been several rebuilt here.... so if you have another shot at pulling off a deal to grab the motor, let me know how I can help.

MikeR

marros AT clear.net.nz

Edited by Mike Rose (see edit history)
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Mike,

I sent you a private message about this. Did you get it? At the time I was on this engine, a deal had been struck out between Vernon and I. Shortly after (and before I went to go get it) Vernon passed away. So the result was that all deals were off. The house has since been sold and I have checked on the possible purchase several times. The woman that bought the house has no desire to do anything with it. In fact you can't even see the building anymore. But she doesn't want it removed either. At this time it is not for sale and resides where it sits. If anything changes, I will let you know.

Edited by Xprefix28truck (see edit history)
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Well, computer let me into the site again...

On the McFarlan triple ign engine, just noticed Std Cat says "...variety of proprietary engines (Wisc, Buda, Brownell, Cont) were used in the early McFarlans, with a T-H being ( not a typo: says "a" T-H, not "T-H") settled upon in 1916..." AND "...for 1921 saw the introduction of the formidable Twin-Valve Six, with triple ignition, 18 spark plugs and 120 HP. McFarlin built that engine itself..."

If that engine was indeed a T-H, but not introduced until, say, late 20 (for the 1921 models) that sounds like T-H, or someone using the T-H design/name, was still produceing engines after the 1918 "sale", which would match the T-H/Ansted confusion noted above.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Got an OK the other day to post on the Alfowners site (I'd thought my request was lost in my computer problems) so today posted a request for info re' any T-H engines or any other T-Heads in that period ALF's.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Got a reply on my post to alfowners from a Senior member there (who rebuilds ALF 4 and 6 cyl T-heads) implying (but not saying so directly) that the Marmon Wasp replacement engine and the apparent 2006 prewar cars "T-H" T-head were actually ALF T-heads...

My request for clarification got no further reply (hope I didn't offend him--my wife says I sometimes sound like I'm interrogating people, when all I'm trying to get is the facts, as the man said) but it would appear the fire truck angle was a dead end.

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Sorry folks. Been dealing with a death in the family. The Coker "T" head is still a mystery. We have been trying to find more info on it to no avail. The triple ignition engine in the Mc Farlan was, I believe, a non Teetor engine. I have inspected one in person and found no evidence of it.

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I hope TEETER-everything has been Googled to see if anything new comes up; as noted below, Teeter/Teetor-HARDLY/HARLEY should be Googled as well:

My actual reason for posting is in the course of looking in Mroz' truck book I see that:

(1) Lorraine, which had become either a subsidiary or lower-priced arm of Pilot, built hearses and limousines (fitted with Cont 7R's per Std Cat) fitted with the Cont 7R "...and later by 6Cyl engines from Hershell-Spillman and Teetor-Harley (no typo)..." per Mroz. Std Cat shows 1920-21, while Mroz shows 1920-24 for Lorraine hearses etc. This Lorraine must not be confused with the Lorraines of Camden, NJ (1910; maybe no prod), of Chicago (1907-08), or of Grand Rapids, (also of 1920-22).

(2) Maxim fire truck began fabricating their own chassis in 1916, or close to it, powered by "...Maxim's own 6cyl triple ignition...". Could be another red herring if none of the T-H's were triple ign.

(3) Under McFarland 1918 (instead of the correct McFarlan), Mroz says "...In April of 1918, Motor World (auto etc magazine of the time) announced that McFarland would be producing a 31/2Ton truck that would be manufactured by the Teeter-Hardly (no typo) Motor Company of

Hagerstown, Indiana. Estimated price ...$4000. It does not appear that this vehicle made it past the prototype stage...".

Still have computer problems, so haven't checked any of the above.

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