White walls??Why vs why not

[MCHinson]

Barry,

what makes you think that judges can

"interject their personal opinion and ding someone for whitewalls"?

From the judging guidelines...

The following items are accepted for judging without penalty under the “Grandfather

Clause”, due to their initial acceptance in the beginning of the judging program.

a. Whitewall tires. Must be proper size designation and proper style.

As long as they are the original size and type... i.e. bias ply instead of radials, there is not problem in judging.

[Barry Wolk]

It probably would depend on the judging team at the time, and how well they know their mid-'30s Fords.

This is what led me to my conclusion.

[MarkV]

I have white walls on every car I own, whether the thick or thin line ones, with the exception of the 21 Chevy which came with blackwalls. I think they make late model and antique cars look finished, distinguished, and different!

[West Peterson]

This is what led me to my conclusion.

That was in regard to whether double or single was correct, which would not be based on opinion. Double is correct, and available.

Edited May 16, 2011 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Barry Wolk]

Regardless, your statement still says that the judges opinion comes into play in club judging. When in doubt judges should err on the side of the exhibitor, IMO.

Four pages now and there's no agreement. How can you judge in the field?

[West Peterson]

No. I'm saying that judges don't know everything. If a judge is not aware that a 1935 Ford is supposed to have double side white walls, he won't deduct points if he sees the car with single.

As far as finding agreement on white vs black, no, we wont. It's just a friendly discussion on taste.

[R W Burgess]

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A 63 Corvette with white walls and a base engine and powerglide indicate one thing: This car isn't serious, on the street or especially on the track.

Ummm, it might indicate, though, that my wife broke her leg on a sking trip in Colorado a few years ago , but still wants to look stylish while driving her Corvette to the local Women's Club, in her long dress and top hat!

And, she's serious about looking pretty, just ask her sometime.

Wayne

[Guest]

Ummm, it might indicate, though, that my wife broke her leg on a sking trip in Colorado a few years ago , but still wants to look stylish while driving her Corvette to the local Women's Club, in her long dress and top hat!

And, she's serious about looking pretty, just ask her sometime.

Wayne

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EXACTLY, Thanks for pointing out what that type of look indicates.

Don

[Dynaflash8]

My job before I retired included writing clear regulations. That said, I find the following syntax very unclear. On page 121 of the 1941 Buick Salesman's Facts Book it says: QUOTE

Reversible type black and white side-wall tires are standard equipment on all convertible models and on all Series 90 cars. UNQUOTE

As someone who wrote specifically clear wording that could not be misconstrued I find that I can't tell if the above means "reversible" to mean double white walls or "reversible black and white" to mean white on one side and black on the other. Until this argument I always took that to mean double-sided white walls, especially since my Dad's '39 Special did have those.

Now I wonder if they are saying white on one side and black on the other. There is a picture of a 1941 Buick Special in the Owner's Manual that appears to have black inside and white outside.

I have many ads for 1939 Buick that show double white sidewall tires. I need to dig them out and see if I can find one with white on one side and black on the other. But, you can't go by an ad.

I'll have to do some more study. The bottom line is, however, there are no double whitewalls available anymore except 6.00x16 Ford monogram tires. Now read the Judges Manual. "The closest................................"

Th

Edited May 16, 2011 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I think the whole string of messages was worth it to see the "Low End" 1938 Buick Special; it don't even have a body! About as low end as you can get.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Generally, blackwalls were much more popular in Europe than in the US. They were more common on expensive cars than cheaper cars. They became more common in the 50s than the 20s and 30s. They weren't available immediately after WW II for a couple of years. Some years back CCCA published an analysis on whitewall vs. blackwall use based on original factory photographs in the Classic era. Look to their back issues if you have that much interest in this for the higher-priced cars.

Its almost never a matter of authenticity, it was a matter of personal choice in most cases to the original purchaser, as it is today to the restorer. Some cars and some body styles and colors wear whitewalls better than others.

From the 1934 Packard Super 8 specifications. They were also "no cost" on the Twelve, but extra cost on the Eight.

[alsancle]

The "dress up" thing is really the root of the problem. There seems to be two groups. One comprised of those that want the style of the car to stand on it's own without distraction. The second being those that want to bring extra attention to the car.

All of the following detract from the overall lines or styling of the car (in my humble opinion):

1. White walls.

2. aftermarket hood ornaments (especially Lalique!!!!!!!)

3. badges

4. pilot rays

5. extra trunks (for 20s & 30s cars)

6. Pennants

7. Curb feelers (for 50s cars)

8. Spot lights

9. Spare mounted mirrors (20s & 30s cars)

10. Aftermarket radiator stone guards

Add non factory skirts and after market hubcaps to this list.

[Matt Harwood]

I don't know, my '29 has a lot of those things: a center-mounted pilot ray (though the non-steering type), a spotlight (I could live without it), whitewalls, and a trunk. To be honest, when I was growing up in the '80s and we went on tours, all the most fabulous cars had those things and now that I have a Full Classic of my own, I really like having that kind of stuff on it. In my frame of reference, that was how those cars dressed, and it's what I've always dreamed of owning.

I'll admit that I'm undecided on the trunk. The car looks good without it, and in my opinion, it hangs too far away from the body and just looks like a box stuck on the back, so I may leave it off unless I'm touring.

I admire cars for their beauty, but for my own, there are certain things that define what Classic means to me. Whitewalls (appropriately used, of course--I like the Mercedes 500K without them, thank you very much), trunks, and Pilot Rays say Full Classic to me as much as 8 cylinders and sidemounts. That's why I'm happy with them on my car.

And isn't that the point? Dress it up if you want and have fun!

[Guest djohn81641]

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That Buick also has " sweep cut " front and rear with raised lip fenders, a GM styling feature which first started with 1954 Olds 98 Holiday & Starfire convertible . This styling feature was NOT designed to use skirts because the sweep cut IS the feature of the styling. If you use skirts they create a conflict of interest in the body line.

The W/W's in the wedding picture are narrower than the current picture.

Ah the "sweep cut" design que is interesting. But fender skirts were a popular aftermarket item in 50's and 60's and the demand kept after market fender skirt manufacturers in business. So popular in fact that the 60 had fender skirts installed by the dealer and were show cased on the car while on the show room floor. I know this because the car was purchased off the show room floor in 1960, at Derk Buick, New Rochelle, NY with the fender skirts already installed, which has given the car a unique and interesting look for the past 51 years.

Edited May 17, 2011 by djohn81641 (see edit history)

[Guest]

Ah the "sweep cut" design que is interesting. But fender skirts were a popular aftermarket item in 50's and 60's and the demand kept after market fender skirt manufacturers in business. So popular in fact that the 60 had fender skirts installed by the dealer and were show cased on the car while on the show room floor. I know this because the car was purchased off the show room floor in 1960, at Derk Buick, New Rochelle, NY with the fender skirts already installed, which has given the car a unique and interesting look for the past 51 years.

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Just a FYI, Pontiac division never showed a Pontiac with sweep cut with skirts in any of their commercials or print literature. Sweep cut for Pontiac would be 57 and 59.

A interesting note on sweep cut. 1955 Starfire 98 & super 88 had sweep cut and 1955 88 dosen't--but the 88's skirt does have sweep cut. Possibly to make it look like it's more expensive brothers??

Edited May 17, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

That's because the 54 and 55 used the same quarter-panel and they were trying to "freshen" the rear styling from the full-skirted 54.

Also- to my knowledge only the Ninety Eight Holidays and the 88 Holiday Sedans had that sweep-cut rear wheel opening treatment. Again, because all 1955 Holiday Sedan bodies were identical whether 88 or Ninety Eight.

[Guest Bill Heidemann]

It can't just be a matter of taste. If you put wide whites on a 70's car that would be authentically incorrect. There needs to be more comment here about what the judges require, and I think that was the point of the original question.

[Curti]

It can't just be a matter of taste. If you put wide whites on a 70's car that would be authentically incorrect. There needs to be more comment here about what the judges require, and I think that was the point of the original question.

Amen to that! and less discusion about fender skirts.

[TG57Roadmaster]

alsancle, your list is growing, and here's one more...

"Add non factory skirts (11) and after market hubcaps (12) to this list."

And wire wheels (13), one of the most over-used modern contrivances;

fine for high-end cars, but on base models, UGH! But because any goombah

can order a set from Coker, they are now ubiquitous and quite ridiculous.

According to me, that is.

My '57 Roadmaster would look equally ridiculous with blackwalls. Our '34 Packard

Eight Coupe Roadster will look awesome with blackwalls; without sidemounts,

I want to draw the eye to the elegant fenderline sweep, not two big white donuts fore and aft.

There are very few of these Standard 8's extant with the single rear spare,

as most have the Deluxe treatment with sidemounts and trunk rack. Like West,

I've gone thru the Making of Modern Michigan's Digital Collections scanning

Packard year by year. I'd guess it's a 70 (BW) to 30 (WW) split from those

period, factory photos. Of those WW's, they're all doubles till '41.

But before everyone rushes for the exits to buy (and judge) tires for cars that

should have doubles, bear in mind that of 142 WW's available from Coker,

only 14 are doubles, in a narrow range of sizes.

We have to go with what's available, and what suits our wallets and tastes.

My taste has evolved in the last decade regarding BW's on '30's cars as I

see what a visual difference they make on a car's overall design, but it's my

taste, not anybody else's. It was heavily influenced by this one image in MoMM's

Packard pics for 1933; a young man lost in the beauty of a '33 Twelve...

What I've learned from this thread is that there are more double whites than I imagined

(I'll start paying more attention now), and that everyone's opinions on the subject

are valid and just as important as mine (already knew that). The evolution continues.

TG

[MCHinson]

There needs to be more comment here about what the judges require, and I think that was the point of the original question.

I would disagree about the point of the original question. From this post and a few others, It appears to me that the original poster simply wanted to stimulate discussion, not ask a judging question. If this was a judging question, it would have been asked in the judging forum.

Even if we don't all like it, whitewalls are accepted for judging without penalty.

I personally dislike whitewall tires on Model A Fords because all of the documentation that I have ever seen tells me that Henry never sent a single Model A Ford out of the factory with whitewall tires. When judging, however, whitewall tires are accepted without penalty on Model A Fords, as well as other cars that may or may not have been originally equipped with whitewall tires.

As I have said previously....

From the judging guidelines...

The following items are accepted for judging without penalty under the “Grandfather Clause”, due to their initial acceptance in the beginning of the judging program.

a. Whitewall tires. Must be proper size designation and proper style.

As long as they are the original size and type... i.e. bias ply instead of radials, there is not problem in judging.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Whitewall versus Blackwall is a matter of personal taste.

We are never going to all agree on this issue. Everybody will continue to like and buy the tires that they personally prefer. I don't know why we are still beating this dead horse.

[alsancle]

TG

I love rear mounted spares and this car looks great that way. I agree it shows the fender sweep perfectly.

[Guest]

alsancle,ording to me, that is.

My '57 Roadmaster would look equally ridiculous with blackwalls. Our '34 Packard

Eight Coupe Roadster will look awesome with blackwalls; without sidemounts,

I want to draw the eye to the elegant fenderline sweep, not two big white donuts fore and aft.

TG

Your 57 would look perfect with blackwalls if you had Buick chrome wires on it!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I dunno about those chrome wire wheels that are starting to show up more and more. For all the talk about WWW, I would say chrome wire wheels on unlikely cars is more of a pet peeve of mine. Was at a show recently that featured two very simillar, high quality postwar Buick Woodie wagons. They both looked great except for the wheels. BW with chrome wires. I can't imagine these being OEM on a utilitarian vehicle even a top of the line one. WWW would be much more likely, I think. So as nice as they both were, I got the impression "looks almost like a street rod" - seen Jr. Packards with these as well, or even closed Sr. cars, after mid 30s, they really don't look right.

But there are worse sins, I suppose...

[Guest]

I dunno about those chrome wire wheels that are starting to show up more and more. For all the talk about WWW, I would say chrome wire wheels on unlikely cars is more of a pet peeve of mine. Was at a show recently that featured two very simillar, high quality postwar Buick Woodie wagons. They both looked great except for the wheels. BW with chrome wires. I can't imagine these being OEM on a utilitarian vehicle even a top of the line one. WWW would be much more likely, I think. So as nice as they both were, I got the impression "looks almost like a street rod" - seen Jr. Packards with these as well, or even closed Sr. cars, after mid 30s, they really don't look right.

But there are worse sins, I suppose...

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Of course they are showing up more & more, wires are not exactly practical, but now that these cars are show cars and driven occasionally and the wheels were a option when new- why not ? certainly better than chrome reverse or 18"- 20" what ever's and these WW's look good too.

http://photos.aaca.org/files/3/0/6/2/9/203puyallupvii-med.jpg

Don

[Yellowriv]

I've enjoyed this thread a lot and learned a bit too, particularly about doubled sided w/ws.

As a kid growing up in 60s Australia, proper w/ws were rare and unbelievably glamorous. My 53 Riv has them and looks lovely. When I restored my 1957 Holden, I put them on and I have to confess I think I might have over cooked it. I don't ever remember seeing them when I was a kid and I now think its too much bling, but they were sooo expensive to buy. Here it is;

Ive just bought a 48 Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty which has w/w radials and I don't think it looks right either. I'm thinking of going to blackwalls on this one, after I paint the wheels correctly - either light grey/green or red, I'm going for the former - what do you think?

[oldcarfudd]

I'm trying to remember something from 50+ years ago. I think Peugeot advertised a car - the 403? - that you could get with bias-ply whitewalls or Michelin radial blackwalls. Same price. Our thoughts in college were that the know-nothing showoffs would opt for white and the drivers would opt for radial. Does anyone else remember this?

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

[Guest Foggy norm]

Yellowriv...My aunt had a 49, with black, it looked three feet shorter. It was very under-dressed for a caddy. Buff out the hubcap centers, go with that.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

The Caddilac probably had ww's, but those look a little wide. But I have slept a couple times since that time. Nice car!!

Ben

[West Peterson]

That Cadillac might look pretty good with black. Look how beautiful this one looks with black.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Kind of makes me think of those tabloids that catch actresses out and about without their make up ...

Some cars, like say, a Bentley "R" type from that era definately look better with BWW, just think the Cad looks better with WWW. Would be so boring if we all agreed, right??

I wonder if the American luxury cars even came with BWW by the early 50s?

[Guest]

That Cadillac might look pretty good with black. Look how beautiful this one looks with black.

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West,

I agree, however if you were reading all the post you will find I posted that picture one week ago post # 108

BTW that is such a beautiful car here is another view;

http://assets.hemmings.com/uimage/7170183-654-0.jpg?rev=14

Don

Edited May 24, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest South_paw]

IMO, whether it's 1948 or 2011. A Black Fleetwood of that era has to have WW's :cool:

Edited May 25, 2011 by South_paw (see edit history)

[Guest]

IMO, whether it's 1948 or 2011. A Black Fleetwood of that era has to have WW's :cool:

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Well, on that particular model YES! That is a Fleetwood Sixty Special also known as "the car with the big doors" just love the rocker molding to the fake fender chrome vent, blended to a stone guard, blended to the skirt molding to the rear quarter molding. A car truly meant for skirts. I saw one at Barrett-Jackson a few years back in better financial times, go for 35K and it was fully restored. couldn't do that car for half that price....what a steal!

[archiveman2977]

5-30-11

Hi, Gents Having been a car brochure collector for 50 years, the question concerning outfitting your car with or without whitewalls seems simple.

Consult your car's brochure: the top of the line cars were illustrated with whitewalls, others in lower series generally wore them also.

In this respect allow the manufacturer set the tone for your car. Also when showing your car keep your brochure handy. Oftentimes, your specific model and color are represented in the brochure.

Happy motoring!

(Did you remember that this was a slogan for Exxon in the 50's?)

This slogan ran for the company then called Humble Oil, then Enco.

archiveman2977

[Guest PWN]

Bunch of other ads showing lots of tire choices.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/autohistorian/sets/72157620687714457/detail/?page=13

Edited May 31, 2011 by PWN (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Neat site. There are a lot of cars there that would look so much better with blacks.

[alsancle]

Neat site. There are a lot of cars there that would look so much better with blacks.

Agreed. But after going through those pages, I wonder if anyone has ever seen one of these:

1931 Marmon Grand-National Sportsman's Convertible Sedan

[Paul Dobbin]

What a fun thread! That's why I've been in this hobby all my life, antique cars can be fun. Thanks to all who have so strongly expressed their opinions about what I consider an accessory if choice. My choice is white walls too.

I suspect this is a product of my youth. At that time a "COOL" car had to have dual exhausts, fender skirts AND Whitewall Tires. We wanted this so we could drive around and be noticed for our nice ride. Nobody wanted to be seen in Dad's care or heaven forbid their Grandfathers car! (Neither one of my Grandfathers would spend 50 cents for anyting cool)

In those formative years, we didn't care about how they left the factory, we wanted what looked cool to us.

Now as more mature "Collectors" of "Investment Cars", we are all about correct, but then again, many of us are Fathers or Grandfathers now.

[Barry Wolk]

Neat site. There are a lot of cars there that would look so much better with blacks.

Did a whitewall do something to you that makes you this way?

[Jrope]

Check the video in this link. Look at the cars. Can you spot the one car with white walls?

VJ Day, Honolulu Hawaii, August 14, 1945 on Vimeo

My avatar is a still from a movie titled "Never Give a Sucker an Even Break" from 1941. At the end of this movie is hilarious chase scene filmed on the streets of Southern California in 1941. This film is widely available. Great old cars. Another movie with a good chase on locaton is "Call Out the Marines" from 1942. Lots of street scenes in Southern California.

Pomeroy

What a great film! My dad was stationed in the islands during WW2- I wouldn't be suprised if he was in it somewhere as you could always find him where there was booze-Ha Ha!!!