White walls??Why vs why not

[Dauphinee]

Here is another question.

White walls....I see 2"..3"..4" white walls. What's the difference besides price..

Now looking at alot of the original cars in the 30's I am seeing black walls.

I go to shows and restorations and I seen alot of white walls now

Why is everyone putting white walls on their cars...were they an option in the 30's?

Is it a bad thing to have white walls and turn them in?

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Prior to the WW I, all pneumatic tires were white or gray-ish... this was the natural color of rubber.

Then it was discovered that the addition of carbon black to the rubber compound made it harder and more durable, and tires became black.

BUT, many tire makers used the black rubber for the tread cap only, and continued using the gray / white rubber for the sidewalls. This is why pre-Depression WWW tires have white sidewalls on both sides.

There are many original factory / dealer / auto show photos from the 1920's and 1930's showing these cars wearing WWW tires.

The width of the whitewall varies with the vintage of the car / tire size; generally, the witewall got narrower as the decades went by; by 1960, the white wall was down to about 1 to 1.5" inches.

Short answer - WWW tires were available in 1936. Your choice.

As for whether or not to "turn the white in", that too is entirely up to you. Assume you already have the WWW on the car ?

Why not flip the tires on just one side and see what you think, before doing all four ?

Another thought - search the internet and eBay for original advertising brochures, advertisements, art for your '36 Pontiac, and see what sort of tires they have ...

[Durant Mike]

This debate on white walls has been on this forum before. Some say it's not authentic to have white walls as many cars came from the factory with black walls. I've seen Fisk tire ads from the late teens advertising white wall tires. I think it's just a matter of taste.

[Pomeroy41144]

Watch old movies from the 1930s and 1940s. That will give you a good idea about real life white wall use back then.

I have watched hundreds of movies from that era with a view to looking at old cars on film shot on location. Location shots are a slice of American life at that moment in time. Street scenes are especially interesting whether shot by a major studio or by a newsreel crew. They indicate the conditions at that time. Look at the cars.

The cars shot in the background on location are vehicles that are actually owned by someone and not by the studio or a dealership. The one thing you will notice on these old films is that many of the cars in real life film of 1930s street scenes do not have whitewall tires-- the majority of cars have black side wall tires. The photo evidence is there for anyone who puts in the time to look. This topic has been discussed at length on FordBarn. Also, Look at books that treat the history of a town or city; check the pre-war photos. More than likely the book will have photos of street scenes from that era. Those photos show old cars parked on the street, autos that are ordinary everyday vehicles of their day, not spiffed up cars in parade. These photos show the day to day reality of how these cars looked. These are great resources for researching old vehicles.

Additionally, to the chargrin of fans of Model A radiator stone guards, the vast majority of Model A cars in use during the pre-war period did not have radiator stone guards. Go to a Model A show and one would get the impression that every Model A car came with a radiator stone guard. The historic evidence shows quite the opposite. In thirty years of looking at images of old cars prior to WWII, I have seen exactly one Model A with a radiator stone guard in an era photo.

Good luck with your research concerning white side wall tires.

Pomeroy41144

Edited May 7, 2011 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

This debate on white walls has been on this forum before. Some say it's not authentic to have white walls as many cars came from the factory with black walls. I've seen Fisk tire ads from the late teens advertising white wall tires. I think it's just a matter of taste.

Mike

I have been in the middle of the white sidewall debate, but I don't ever recall the debate being centered around whether it was authentic or not (except maybe when it comes to Ford Model A's). It's always an argument about taste and how often one would have actually seen WWW 'in the day.'

I'm in the corner of thinking cars look much better with black tires. Those who like 'bling' put on the WWW and add the spotlights.

[Steve Moskowitz]

I leave off the spotlights. However, on appropriate cars I like the whitewalls. How did I know you would post on this thread! You just got to get over this phobia! BTW, Chris got his '37 home today and of course he is planniong on sticking with the blackwalls.

[Pomeroy41144]

Check the video in this link. Look at the cars. Can you spot the one car with white walls?

VJ Day, Honolulu Hawaii, August 14, 1945 on Vimeo

My avatar is a still from a movie titled "Never Give a Sucker an Even Break" from 1941. At the end of this movie is hilarious chase scene filmed on the streets of Southern California in 1941. This film is widely available. Great old cars. Another movie with a good chase on locaton is "Call Out the Marines" from 1942. Lots of street scenes in Southern California.

Pomeroy

Edited May 7, 2011 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

I did not see a single whitewall in the film. Must be getting old.

[ply33]

Yes white walls were available in the 1930s. But the car owners who would pay extra for them were few and far between.

I have black wall tires on my 33 Plymouth sedan because I think it looks right for the type of person that would have been buying that type of car. Now if it were a convertible or a high end car, then the owner could have had a little extra money and might well have gone for white walls to dress it up. But not likely on a low end sedan marketed toward the average family.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I did not see a single whitewall in the film. Must be getting old.

Naah, age has nothing to do with it. After the "natural" rubber tires disappeared whitewall tires became an option, a rather expensive option. Buyers were being "gigged" more for a single whitewall than a whole set of black wall tires cost the manufacturers of automobiles. They remained "optional" until in the 1960s they became standard equipment on many cars. The only cars before that time they were standard equipment on would have been Cadillacs, Lincolns, Packards, and Chrysler Imperials, and that may have only been the case after 1950.

Jim

[Rusty_OToole]

Whitewalls were most popular in the fifties along with tailfins and 2 tone paint jobs. By the late sixties they were common. In the meantime starting in the mid fifties they got narrower every year ending with white stripe and red stripe tires around 1969. After that when you bought replacement tires they came with whitewalls. Your choice to turn them to the outside or inside.

[Pomeroy41144]

1931 Packard Eight

as seen in a 1934 movie "You're Telling Me"

Pomeroy

[Pomeroy41144]

1931 Dusenberg from the same movie

The luxury brands had the whitewalls.

P

[Pomeroy41144]

Here are a Chevrolet and Ford in the same movie--no white walls.

Pomeroy41144

[Pomeroy41144]

Rusty Quote:

"Expensive cars such as town cars and limousines did not get them because they were thought to be gaudy and in bad taste."

Here is a limo with some whites.

Another Limo from "You're Telling Me."

Pomeroy41144

Edited May 7, 2011 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Unless it's a car that came with factory whitewalls, Cord 810/812, 53/54 Packard Caribbean, etc, they should be black. My opinion only of course. Whenever I see a prewar Classic with whitewalls the first thought that goes through my mind is how much better it would look with appropriate (NON-radial) blackwalls.

[Rusty_OToole]

The cars from the W C Fields picture illustrate the point of expensive rather flashy convertibles with whitewalls driven by sporty types.

As for the Cadillac landaulette, well it was California lol.

In fact any car could be equipped with whitewalls. The question seemed to be, which cars were more likely to be seen this way and which were not?

[Restorer32]

1932 Packard 900 Models had whitewalls as a common option. I have a photo showing 6 1932 Packards outside the factory, all with whitewalls.

[Guest my3buicks]

If you simply do interenet searches you will find countless vintage pictures of many upper end cars with whitewalls

example: type in "Dietrich Packard Picture" and you will see down over the several pages of pictures several original Packard shots with whitewalls

[Rusty_OToole]

Is it a bad thing to have whitewalls and turn them in?

If you mean what I think you mean, after around 1970 practically all tires sold came with whitewalls. The customer would tell the tire store or garage if he wanted the whitewalls in or out. Old guys usually wanted them out because to them whitewalls were still a prestige feature, younger guys wanted the blackwall look.

[Guest Foggy norm]

My father loved the look of blackwalls, especially on the big cars, marmons, etc. He said the tire's looked massive in black. Wondered if he ever saw a 6:00X16? He wasn't a rich man so he paid no attention to whitewalls. When I grew up, all I wanted was whitewalls (rebellion?). As mentioned, one whitewall could cost as much as a set of blackwalls. It's pretty much a sure bet whitewalls were for the well heeled. To me a clean set of whitewalls on a rust bucket, makes it look like a gem. Heck, I'd put whitewalls on a tank if I owned one.

[Amphicar BUYER]

Why?...

Why not? ...

[Guest Foggy norm]

Why?...To me whitewalls show the front and rear of the vehicle, it rolls! Standing still, the circle of white implies movement. Blackwalls tend to morph into the shadow of the fender well. On a large dark car there hardly noticeable. Blackwalls tend to blend into the asphalt, shadows and create a void. The only thing left is a little circle of chrome or color with a very large car depending on it to roll. Gee, even a honeywagon would look good with whitewalls.

[Guest]

I think it's ok either way, however what I really don't like is a car like a 63 Cadillac with huge white walls that is only supposed to have 3/4" or 1" white walls. Period correct is the way I like it and the way the designers envisioned the cars to to be presented.

Red lines look perfect on a car that was made for it (1964-1966 LeMans GTO and GTO) but terrible on a 69 GTO.

Back walls really made the comeback in the early 60's when the aftermarket and later manufacturers started using mag type wheels because the black wall showcases the mag instead of distracting from it like a white wall would do.

The kids and adults into the performance cars had and have mags as part of the racing look, so who ever heard of a race car with white walls? When growing up only the old or established folks had white walls. I know there were some racing slicks in the late 50's early 60's and my dad had them on our A/stock 59 Pontiac Catalina, but I soon convinced him to turn them inside for fear my friends would call him a old man.

Don

Edited May 8, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Some cars wear whitewalls well. Others don't. Still other cars need a whitewall to make them look right. Case in point- I put a set of blackwalls on a 73 Olds Delta convertible in an effort to make the car look more "purposeful" with its Mondello-spec 455.

All they did was make the car look stubby. It honestly looked like you had lopped a foot off the sheetmetal aft of the rear wheels. So, I decided that "sleeper" was a better look than "purposeful" and turned the whitewall out.

GM really complicated things in 1961 when they put narrow whitewalls on Olds Starfires and Chevy Impala SS. To me, narrow looks eminently better on these cars, but wide whites were still very much in use on the other 1961 GM cars. With narrow, the cars look modern and futuristic. With wide whites, they look very dated IMO.

[Rusty_OToole]

so who ever heard of a race car with white walls?

Max Balchowsky for one. He built race cars called "old yeller" and used whitewall tires.

He had an unusual approach to building a race car. He used his own senses and did not follow what others were doing. He found at the time, the best gripping tires were top of the line Atlas Bucron butyl rubber tires. They performed better than the Dunlop Gold Seal racing tires everyone else was using. Reason, the Dunlops were rated for 120MPH speed and had a hard casing and hard rubber compound. The butyl tires gripped better but were not speed rated. So what, the tracks he raced on did not permit sustained high speeds anyway.

The Atlas tires came only as whitewalls. He ran them whitewall out and told everybody they were leftovers from his station wagon tow car. They thought he was nuts, and he beat their brains out.

By the way he did break in the tires on his tow car first. They worked better when they were half worn down than when they were new.

Old Yeller

Old Yeller 2 - The Official Website of this Famous Race Car

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Dauphinee started this thread about a 36 Pontiac so here is a picture of one I just happened to have. I don't know anything about it except New York plates. It's probably not wearing whitewalls.

[Landman]

Many opinions, most correct. The post about the whitewalls having to be period correct is inportant to me. Nothing worse than a '60's car with 3" ww. However, in my opinion, any large car which is black or dark with dark wheels looks absolutey stupid with blackwalls. You need at least a light colored wheel. Like I said..in my opinion.

[Barry Wolk]

My '56 Continental came with 3 1/8" whitewalls.

My '55 Porsche Cabrio came with 2 1/2" wide whites.

My '41 Ford standard cab did not come with whites, but the DeLuxe did.

The '33 Continental did not come with wide whites, but pictures do exist showing them.

This was my car in 1966.

This is how I received it. I replaced the wide whites with the same width.

However, period advertising showed wide whites.

[Dynaflash8]

If you grew up in the 1940s, 1950s or 1960s you just wouldn't have a car with black wall tires unless you were old or couldn't afford their extra cost.

If you grew up in the 1980s, 1990s during the Eurodesign phase you became accustomed to the dull look of black wall tires.

My Dad had white wall tires on his 39 Buick when he bought it in 1941, but when he had to buy new tires, first it was during World War II when white walls weren't available and second he wasn't the kind of guy to spend an extra nickel.

When I got my first car, a 1939 Buick, I painted on the white walls with Pep Boys Paint because I couldn't afford white walls. When I got the next car, a 1952 Plymouth Belvedere it had black walls on it and I bought one of the first sets of Portawalls in Arlington, VA because I couldn't afford white walls.

When I got my next car in 1958; a 1955 Ford you better believe it had white wall tires on it. I absolutely hate the fact I can't get white wall tires for my 2005 Buick Park Avenue which unfortunately has Eurostyle 16-inch tires.

I sometimes wonder why the USA is first in Peace, first in War and subserviant to European auto design. Pickup trucks are fancier today than ugly cars.

The original tires on the 39 Buick were about 3.5 inches. The tires immediately after the War grew to 4 and 5 inches. Chrysler tires around 1950 were very wide whitewalls. By 1955 whitewall size had slimmed to 3 inches, as proven by showroom pictures in my 1956 High School Yearbook. Then in the 60's and 70's they slowly reduced to two, then 1 1/2 and finally to a skinny line about the size of your little finger. Then the radials and Eurodesigns took over and they disappeared.

I wouldn't have an old car without white walls, but a good friend of mine who does a lot of writing and magazine layout and is the age of my kids disagrees with me. That's what makes the world go around.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Landman]

Barry,

Your '56 Continental is one of very few, isn't it?

As far as whitewalls go, my current project has them. Originally it was gray with red wheels and presumably blackwalls. My dad and his brother gave it a quickie black paint job with a brush and kept the red wheels and blackwalls. At least they were still black on the hay wagon where they wound up in the '50's.

My'67 Mustang has neither black or white, it has Raised White Letters.

[Barry Wolk]

It's one of three thousand coupes, but the first of three made into convertibles made from new cars.

[Guest Albert]

What i find that really looks out of place is a 30's 40's or 50's pickup with 3"white walls.

[Matt Harwood]

I think whitewalls are like your clothing choices--if you like how it looks, go for it. Of course, there are appropriate and inappropriate applications. For instance, my father has always insisted on blackwalls for his 1930 Model A roadster. Despite being a sporty little car, the Model A was basic transportation and in his opinion, never would have worn whitewalls. I agree and like it just fine with the blackwalls.

I have just been through this debate on my '29 Cadillac, and I finally decided to go with wide whites, which are technically correct and on the dark car, really dress it up (in my opinion). While several guys here did some great mock-ups that made it look awfully good with the blackwalls and it was quite tempting, I decided that the reason I bought the car was to fulfill a childhood dream of owning a large Classic with 8 cylinders and sidemounts--and wide whites were part of that dream. So whitewalls it is!

It's fashion. Wear what you like and don't worry about it.

[Curti]

A question and a comment.

If is my understanding the last double white walls were used on the new cars of 1938. If white walls were ordered new in 1939 they were singles. Is this true?

I find it interesting to look at the very high end cars that are displayed at the Concourse de Elligance events. The Bugatti, Isota Frachini, Talbo Lago and the like. The lions share of those cars have blackwall tires. It is seems that with truly fine automobiles attention is not drawn to the tires but to the car. Cars that are in need of a bit of 'sprucing up' will have white sidewalls. Something to add a bit of pizzazz. This would apply to pre WWII cars.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I think whitewalls are like your clothing choices--if you like how it looks, go for it. Of course, there are appropriate and inappropriate applications. For instance, my father has always insisted on blackwalls for his 1930 Model A roadster. Despite being a sporty little car, the Model A was basic transportation and in his opinion, never would have worn whitewalls. I agree and like it just fine with the blackwalls.

I have just been through this debate on my '29 Cadillac, and I finally decided to go with wide whites, which are technically correct and on the dark car, really dress it up (in my opinion). While several guys here did some great mock-ups that made it look awfully good with the blackwalls and it was quite tempting, I decided that the reason I bought the car was to fulfill a childhood dream of owning a large Classic with 8 cylinders and sidemounts--and wide whites were part of that dream. So whitewalls it is!

It's fashion. Wear what you like and don't worry about it.

True... and there are some of us guys who wouldn't be caught dead wearing black & white "saddle shoes", no matter how "Stylish" they were...

I think in some cases, it depends on the vehicle.

Some cars or certain color schemes present better with black-wall tires.

[keiser31]

A question and a comment.

If is my understanding the last double white walls were used on the new cars of 1938. If white walls were ordered new in 1939 they were singles. Is this true?

I find it interesting to look at the very high end cars that are displayed at the Concourse de Elligance events. The Bugatti, Isota Frachini, Talbo Lago and the like. The lions share of those cars have blackwall tires. It is seems that with truly fine automobiles attention is not drawn to the tires but to the car. Cars that are in need of a bit of 'sprucing up' will have white sidewalls. Something to add a bit of pizzazz. This would apply to pre WWII cars.

No, it's not true. The 1939 Chrysler products had double white sidewall tires. Even as late as 1940 had them......you can see them peeking out from under the cars.

Edited May 8, 2011 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Landman]

A question and a comment.

If is my understanding the last double white walls were used on the new cars of 1938. If white walls were ordered new in 1939 they were singles. Is this true?

I find it interesting to look at the very high end cars that are displayed at the Concourse de Elligance events. The Bugatti, Isota Frachini, Talbo Lago and the like. The lions share of those cars have blackwall tires. It is seems that with truly fine automobiles attention is not drawn to the tires but to the car. Cars that are in need of a bit of 'sprucing up' will have white sidewalls. Something to add a bit of pizzazz. This would apply to pre WWII cars.

Have you noticed though, that these high end cars you are describing, often wear their blackwalls on chrome wires. Blackwalls are fine, just not on black wheels.

[Curti]

Have you noticed though, that these high end cars you are describing, often wear their blackwalls on chrome wires. Blackwalls are fine, just not on black wheels.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Yes, for sure chrome wires, a full chrome hubcap or chrome hubcap and beauty rings. No Black wheels.

Then let me rephrase the question. Were there any tire manufacturers offering single whites prior to 1940? Not counting the early tires discussed above.

[John_Maine]

I like whitewalls and would have them on my every day cars now if I could get them in their sizes. I fear that whitewalls for our antiques will only be available from specialty tire dealers.