Do Not Judge?

[Restorer32]

The judging teams I have been on have often judged a mix of Preservation, Junior and Senior cars. Unless the numbers become overwhelming I see no problen including HPOF vehicles in the mix. Certainly no more work evaluating a pre certified HPOF vehicle than looking over a Repeat Preservation vehicle. In my experience I have never known a Repeat Preservation vehicle not to get its chip.

[Shop Rat]

The judging teams I have been on have often judged a mix of Preservation, Junior and Senior cars. Unless the numbers become overwhelming I see no problen including HPOF vehicles in the mix. Certainly no more work evaluating a pre certified HPOF vehicle than looking over a Repeat Preservation vehicle. In my experience I have never known a Repeat Preservation vehicle not to get its chip.

Yes, at some shows we do judge everything from Junior to Repeat Preservations, but the training is the same for all of them.

The training for evaluating HPOF and DPC vehicles and the training for judged classes vehicles is different. Check out the on-line Judging Guidelines and see just how different they are. There are CJE courses especially for learning how to evaluate HPOF and DPC vehicles. Anyone that wants to be on either of those teams must take the CJE class for what they want to do before they will be assigned to that team.

Both Bill and I have judged vehicles going for a Repeat Preservation that did not get their chip. I am sure there are others that have. It is not a slam dunk to get that chip.

I have spoken with friends that have HPOF vehicles to see what their feelings are about mixing their cars in with restored vehicles. They have no desire to do that. They would rather remain as a separate class. And their cars are very nice.

Again, those that want change need to get together and propose what they want to the proper folks in charge. All owners of HPOF vehicles should have the opportunity to say in how they would feel about it because the change that some want would affect all HPOF owners.

[Restorer32]

I understand that the initial evaluation of HPOF cars differs from regular class judging. I am talking about cars that have already gone thru that initial evaluation and certification. HPOF cars aren't fully evaluated every time they appear at a show are they? If they are not then how do they differ from Repeat Preservations? Just as likely someone would modify a Repeat Preservation car as an HPOF don't you think? I don't mind HPOFs being in a separate class, I just don't understand the logic , especially if part of our mission is to educate judges as well as the public.

[Guest Stonefish]

So...again I ask....how does a DNJ car, in class, disrupt the delicate flow of judging and confuse spectators on a show field? If it is a matter of finding cars…that sounds like an organization problem.

As for HPOF within their respective class….all for that…and anxious to hear more about the revamping of the criteria. DPC cars….no, that class should stay as is, where is. I've seen too many mods and "bolt ons" on cars…

Last year at Hershey there were 61 cars going for HPOF and 90 going for repeat HPOF…151 total sounds like a lot, I agree. But…spread out in their classes they would be diluted. The results are here on this page…someone could figure out where they would be placed and what class would see an influx.

Who can answer this; How many people certified HPOF at Hershey last year? Is it one small team or a group of teams?

Nationals are pre-registered events…you know what is coming…put HPOF specialists on the teams where the HPOF cars are. You know the layout of the show field, At Hershey an HPOF specialist can go down one row…and back and probably cover multiple classes.

I know it is all about man power…always is. I would drop "judges" from DPC, it is called Driver Participation Class…if you get your car there, you participated. Have one or two people walk the class and confirm they are participating, and give them a chip. If you are worried people will have street rods, customs and modified things…eliminate the class OR snag'em at the gate, again…those cars would stick out like a sore thumb. They do in the car corral and would be even worse on the show field. Make it known to those that signed up for DPC…what the rules are and there will be a flush gate for those that blatantly disregard them.

Focus should be on HPOF cars….TRUE HPOF cars….hard part about it…you have to rely on what the owner tells them about the car. Remember HPOF cars have to be 35 years or older…

Again, like many threads….it has wandered off topic…

So…how about those DNJ's??

[Shop Rat]

So...again I ask....how does a DNJ car, in class, disrupt the delicate flow of judging ...... ??

If the list the Team Captain has lists a vehicle as a DNJ it doesn't disrupt the flow of judging. When a Team Captain and judging team come to a DNJ we verify that it is not to be judged according to the list that the Team Captain has of the vehicles in the class. If it is listed as a DNJ then we move to the next vehicle listed to be judged. If it is not listed as a DNJ on the list then the Team Captain would go back and check with the folks at Admin. to resolve the issue.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Shop Rat
Correct a type-o. (see edit history)

[Guest Moepar]

My two cents:

We have a car that we have been putting into the DPC class since that class's inception. Prior to this, we put it in its class as a DNJ at a national show. That particular time, one of the judges came up to us and asked us why we put that POS on the show field to take up valuable space that someone who wanted to get their first junior could have had. We told 'em no problem, that wouldn't happen again, & until DPC came along (about 5-6 years later), none of our cars were ever entered into a national show. We took same car to a local AACA show, put it in DNJ & pretty much got the same treatment when the judges came by.

We currently have one car that qualifies for HPOF. I enjoy having it show with other survivors. Our personal experience has been that the car has actually gotten far more attention when in HPOF class than when shown next to a restored car (were it seems to get lost & go unnoticed).

[Shop Rat]

It makes me very sad that a fellow AACA judge treated you and your husband like that.

Everyone is allowed to their own opinion. However as representatives of the AACA as a whole we as judges should not talk to owners like that. That is just rude in my opinion.

[Guest Moepar]

Everyone is allowed to their own opinion. However as representatives of the AACA as a whole we as judges should not talk to owners like that. That is just rude in my opinion.

Yeah, it was rude. And if it wasn't for the fact that my husband is a diehard AACA member, he could've quit over that. If we're to grow as a club (and this club is getting older whether we like it or not), that's gotta go. Since the DPC class was made, we have not experienced any of that kind of flack.

[Guest Stonefish]

Well, I'm still a tad confused…on the first page it seemed that you(Shop Rat) agreed with Peter's philosophy on DNJ, which stated that it was "more work for the judging teams" .

And in your latest post you state; "it doesn't disrupt the flow of judging".

So……what are we led to believe??

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Well, I'm still a tad confused…on the first page it seemed that you(Shop Rat) agreed with Peter's philosophy on DNJ, which stated that it was "more work for the judging teams" .

And in your latest post you state; "it doesn't disrupt the flow of judging".

So……what are we led to believe??

Peter?

[R W Burgess]

My two cents:

We have a car that we have been putting into the DPC class since that class's inception. Prior to this, we put it in its class as a DNJ at a national show. That particular time, one of the judges came up to us and asked us why we put that POS on the show field to take up valuable space that someone who wanted to get their first junior could have had. We told 'em no problem, that wouldn't happen again, & until DPC came along (about 5-6 years later), none of our cars were ever entered into a national show. We took same car to a local AACA show, put it in DNJ & pretty much got the same treatment when the judges came by.

Dawn, I would hope that any AACA member that sees that kind of behavior from an AACA official, or even a spectator, would step forward and let a Board member or other AACA official know about it. We do not need that type of behavior on our show fields.

Wayne

[Guest Stonefish]

Here is the direct quote....that was agreed upon by Shop Rat. Just trying to find out if DNJ cars are a burden on judges and if so why?

My problem with DNJ is it causes more work for the judging teams not to mention confusion of specators not familiar with the AACA procedures. This is compounded at large meets.

Simply put, if one does not desire to have a vehicle judged then please participate in the applicable class (DPC or HPOF in this thread's topic). All the classes have been designed so everyone has a venue to show and chat.

Regards,

Peter.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Stonefish (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

Well, I'm still a tad confused…on the first page it seemed that you(Shop Rat) agreed with Peter's philosophy on DNJ, which stated that it was "more work for the judging teams" .

And in your latest post you state; "it doesn't disrupt the flow of judging".

So……what are we led to believe??

I had to go back and re-read both Peter's and my comments to figure this out. We wrote those back in early April.

Sorry I wasn't clear on that. I agreed with Peter that it would be a good idea for those that don't want their vehicles judged to put them in the DPC or HPOF classes rather than in class judging.

But if owners want their vehicle to stay with their class, and there is room for them there without keeping a vehicle out that the owner wants it judged, I don't see a problem with that either. And someone posted that so far no vehicle has been turned away from being judged because there wasn't room due to DNJ vehicles.

I can only speak to my experience as a Team Captain when dealing with the DNJ vehicles, but the only work I have to do with them is to make sure that the paperwork matches that the owner(s) did not want it judged and put a checkmark beside the information that I did verify that as correct.

[Guest Stonefish]

Gotcha...thanks;)

[Chris Paulsen]

Being primarily into early cars, I would love to see HPOF cars near restored examples. To be honest, if that were the case, I probably would have shown/displayed my 1913 Buick with original upholstery and top, but I did not want to be parked so far away from similar cars and my friends with other early cars.

Restorer32- I showed my father's 1902 Oldsmobile for a repeat preservation last year and did NOT get it. It is a 15 year old restoration that has been toured a little. The body and upholstery are still very near flawless. I was told it did not get a repeat preservation because the body bolts were wrong. I assured the chief judge we had not changed them since receiving a Jr and Sr award. Then he claimed they had grade markings. When I wiped the very thin film of oil off them revealing no grade markings, he said "well, it could have been a little cleaner". I detailed the entire car before 2 days earlier. I drove it into the trailer, then out of the trailer and on the field. Yes, there was a normal amount (for a 108 year old single cylinder car) of grease and oil on the engine. I did wipe off the largest amountafter parking it, but I did not do a full detail job on the engine. The rest of the car was fine. It was the oldest car and I was one of the youngest exhibitors there. You can probably tell I was (and still am) a little disappointed.

Chris Paulsen

McPherson, KS

[Shop Rat]

.....Restorer32- I showed my father's 1902 Oldsmobile for a repeat preservation last year and did NOT get it. .....

Chris Paulsen

McPherson, KS

Chris,

Since you did not get the award you were after, did you send a letter to the VP of class judging to get a highlighted copy of your judging sheet to see where points were deducted? According to the rules you are entitled to get that if you don't get the award you were going after.

If you didn't then you should send a letter and get a copy. Since it was only a year ago you probably can still get one.

[Chris Paulsen]

Hi Susan-

Thanks, I thought about it.

I decided not to because I/we know the car is right. I figured that the judging sheet probably would not tell us anything other than someone's opinion in a highlighted box. When I asked the chief judge to explain the problem, he couldn't. When I asked him if we (or he) could check with the engine judge, he said no.

We decided it's just not worth the aggravation (not to mention time and expense) to show it at the AACA National level any more.

After all, it is a Repeat Preservation car and it should be for fun.

Chris Paulsen

McPherson, KS

[MCHinson]

Chris,

Getting one explanation for the bolt problem and then being told another sounds highly unusual. It sounds like an error was made.

I would suggest that you take Susan up on her suggestion. If there was a problem in the judging, it needs to be corrected. The VP of class judging could compare the judging sheets from other meets and if there is one that is totally different from all of the others, perhaps someone might want to take a look into the issue and determine if an error was made. This would allow the system to correct the error. Perhaps, it will result in education or removal of a judge who needs one or the other. You are right, it is supposed to be fun. If you simply do nothing, that does not help improve the judging system. You speaking up might help keep if fun for someone else who does not have to go through the same problem.

[Shop Rat]

Thanks Matt for adding such great information as to the positve that could come from Chris speaking up to the VP of Class Juding regarding what happened to him.

Judges, even a Team Captain, can make a mistake. But the only way to have mistakes corrected is to go to the folks in charge and provide them with the needed information so that they can look into what happened.

[West Peterson]

I will try to take an unofficial poll at Hershey this year. Based on what I'm hearing on the forum, it seems that the prewar owners want to be parked with their restored bretheren, while the postwar owners want their own class. I hope I can get the time to make a report on Hershey participants.

[charlier]

I will try to take an unofficial poll at Hershey this year. Based on what I'm hearing on the forum, it seems that the prewar owners want to be parked with their restored bretheren, while the postwar owners want their own class. I hope I can get the time to make a report on Hershey participants.

Why not just put a one sheet poll in the car owner packets at Hershey and a few boxes near the food vendors on the show field where the filled out polls can be deposited? If the packets have already been stuffed, then just hand them out with the packets when the owners pick them up.

Might get a better sampling of how the owners feel about this situation doing something like this.

[Vila]

West

I won't have my HPOF 1933 Chevrolet at Hershey this year as in 2009 and 2010, but if you stop by the Black 1984 BMW 633 CSi in class 27P I can give you my 2 cents worth.

Like I said very early in this thread, I would prefer HPOF in class.

Interestingly no one responding to this thread has mentioned this, but back around 9 months ago I got either a post card or email from an someone taking a poll on showing HPOFs in class. I responded, but never heard anything on the results.

Visit my website at: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze114b79/

Vila

1933 Chevrolet

1962 Triumph TR4

1984 BMW 633 CSi

Edited September 21, 2011 by Vila (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Nice cars, Bob. Who did the marvelous body work on the Z3? Very creative. Nice restoration work on the TR-4 as well. I look forward to seeing the fiished product.

[West Peterson]

Why not just put a one sheet poll in the car owner packets at Hershey and a few boxes near the food vendors on the show field where the filled out polls can be deposited? If the packets have already been stuffed, then just hand them out with the packets when the owners pick them up.

Might get a better sampling of how the owners feel about this situation doing something like this.

As I said, my poll will be "unofficial."

Edited September 23, 2011 by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)

[novaman]

That poll that was sent out about a year ago resulted in:

A) HOPF class being moved to the front of the show field so as I put it, the public could see the "what it was" before the "as restored from the factory beauty".

HPOF cars in class by year

C) Signage for HPOF informing the public what this class was about. First sign I saw was at Charlotte and I told, I believe it was Hulon, that the sign was worded nicely but if it hadn't been for the fact I just about tripped over it, I wouldn't have noticed it. I heard we are to have larger signage for Hershey.

I had suggested on mine possibility breaking the HOPF into two or three groups, that way the cars could be closer to their corresponding class and still easy for the HPOF certification judges to find although I was fine with the one group too.

[Vila]

West:

The Z3 work was all done at the Sun Motor Cars body shop for the Sun motors Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi dealerships on the Carlisle Pike, Mechanicsburg, PA.

I literally can not find one place on the car where you can tell it was ever in an accident, except the VIN number tag on the replacement door is a different # then the rest of the car.

Novaman:

Thanks for the info on the HPOF poll. I agree that after I answered the questions the best I could that it still did not show my true opinion, but it was a good start.

Vila

1933 Chevrolet

1962 Triumph TR4

1984 BMW 633 CSi

[West Peterson]

I was referring to the marvelous "pre bodyshop work.":)

Thanks for giving me your additional comments on the poll that was mailed.

[Steve Moskowitz]

The results of the phone calls and survey are tabulated and have given the HPOF committee an overwhelming mandate to move forward. No results have been published as the committee is putting in extraordinary hours trying to make this class a better class. The work is not finished and nothing is served by piecemealing it out. You will see huge signs for HPOF at the fall meet but this is only s small piece of the puzzle. Stay tuned.