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Finding my score.


Jim Connelly
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Nice Lincoln Jim and congratulations on your award. First of all, it is against the rules for your score to EVER be disclosed. The team leader at the time of judging may tell you of areas of major deduction that would prevent you from receiving the award you are going for. I understand (and one of the experienced judges will have to chime in here) that if you do NOT receive the award you are going for, you may find out about those areas from the chief judge after the event by submitting a written request. Otherwise it is assumed that you will always present the vehicle in the best form you possibly can. I am sure that you, like every owner (myself included) knows the areas where your car is weak. Work on them and I am sure you will succeed!!!

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I understand how you feel, but I think it shelters the judges from the inevitable BS from those guys who don't have the ability or refuse to see the flaws in their vehicles. I used to help judge a number of local shows and I have had owners physically threaten judges over a $10.00 trophy. This system allows for judges to make a fair evaluation by a set of standards without fear of repercussion. This then allows for a larger number of people to be involved in judging because they can be involved in the process and have fun at the same time. It also makes it so that you don't necessarily have to be an "expert" on a particular vehicle to be involved in the judging of that vehicle. A clean chassis is a clean chassis, no matter what the brand. It may be benificial for you to attend a judging school just to get the experience. Also look on the AACA main page under publications for the judging guidelines. in there is a copy of the scoring sheets used. If you take that sheet and look at your vehicle with it in hand, i am sure you can find those areas for improvement.

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Dave A gave you correct information.

If you know an AACA judge that lives in your area contact them and ask if it would be possible for them to take a look at your car and offer advice.

You can also take a look at the on-line copy of the 2011 Official Judging Guidelines and get a feel for how judging is done. There will also be a copy of the form used for judging Junior vehicles. Click on the link below and it will take you to that manual.

Judges Manual

We only take off the maximum number of points per item if it is missing, non-authentic or in such bad condition it cannot be used for it's intended purpose.

You will notice a legend that the bottom of the judging forms that explains why some numbers are circled, where there is an * or ** and what that means.

Give it a read and feel free to ask any questions. We have many judges here that will be happy to help you understand our system.

And you can attend a judging school the day before meets and learn firsthand what our judging system is all about. :)

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Last year at Hershey a man came up to me and he was upset by what had happened at other AACA Meet. I wasn't on the team then that judged his car or on the team to judge his car at Hershey, but I let him vent and he walked away feeling better and with information that had not had about our system.

So yes, sometimes it is good to not be in the cross-hairs of an owner that might not have the full story or it is their first time at an AACA event and they start looking at other vehicles in their class and judge their car against someone else's which we don't do. We judge vehicles as they could have come from the factory first and then for condition of the exterior, interior, engine and chassis. And that what is there is authentic rather than aftermarket.

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The only thing that concerns me about subjective judging is when you show a car multiple times and you get deductions for some things some times and not at other times. I usually request my sheets regardless and it surprises me that the deductions change. This tends to be the case when you have an original unrestored car that has slight wear from age. It might not be enough to warrant a replacement/restoration.

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That is part and parcel of having non-professional judges. Sometimes you get a Team Captain and/or a member on a team, that knows a particular vehicle very well. Other times you get a team that is experienced at judging but maybe not with a particular year/make/model.

Sometimes you get a Team Captain, or a judge, that knows a year/make/model VERY well and that vehicle can get judged more closely than the others in the class. (I personally don't think those folks should be put on teams where that can happen as it is not fair to that one, or more, vehicles that get nit-picked when we are told not to do that.) But it does happen. I understand it is hard for that person to not do that since they have such a profound knowledge of a particular vehicle.

And our instructions in judging school have always been that absent factory documentation, if the Team Captain and the four members are not 100% positive that something is incorrect, we are not to deduct. We err on the side of the owner.

The guidelines state that owners that do not receive the award they were going for can ask for a highlighted copy of the judging sheet. Hopefully people that do get the award they were going for will refrain from asking for copies. I know that sometimes if the Chief Judge has time they will send copies to those folks. But don't get upset if they don't. With car counts in the 200+, and higher at places like Hershey, numbers you can see how this could quickly get out of hand and expensive. And many times those folks are going from one event to the next with little time in between for themselves.

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In Al Terek's judging apprentice school, He makes the point that even though different judges will find different deductions. The same cars consistently appear in the same points range with different judges giving different deductions but with the point totals remaining very similar. Just the system working.

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I am amazed at how consistent AACA judging really is. Anyway, a guy complained about not winning the award he was trying for. I had been judging on the team that judged his car, so I knew the score, but certainly couldn't disclose it. He took it to another meet some time later without making any changes in the car, and it was judged by a completely different team of judges. Guess what.....out of the total of 400 points, it received a score within 4 points of what the previous team had scored it. That's consistency!! Again his score could not be disclosed, but I reminded him that the VP of Class Judging could give him the areas that needed to be improved to get a better score.

Art

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The other thing not mentioned so far is that when the judges have questions they funnel them through the team captain for explanation or doccumentation. In the show at Charlotte, I was questioned by the Team captain on several items. The tail light area was questioned as to authenticity. I had doccumentation on that. The roughness of the frame welds was questioned, and although I did not have any doccumentation on that, (I do now) I think the judges accepted my word on it. Finally I was questioned on the attachment of snaps to hold the top on. First of all, I had no doccumentation and admitted to the judges that their point was valid. I am sure I lost points there, and agree that it needs changed and will be done by the time the car goes to Hershey. I gess what I'm saying here, is if you pay attention, you will have a pretty good idea of where you are weak even if you DO win your award.

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You can write to Mr Oakes, address in the AACA magazine and request a copy of your scoresheet, include a SASE. You will receive a copy of your scoresheet minus the point deductions and the areas highlighted where points were deducted. The highlighted areas probably will not allow you to identify the specific weakness, i.e. grill - but it will give you an idea where you need to look more closely. At least, this has been my experience - Mr. Oakes has responded quickly and I was able to use the scoresheet to improve my vehicle.

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..... You will receive a copy of your scoresheet minus the point deductions and the areas highlighted where points were deducted. .....

And when you get the sheet look at the total number of deductions for each area that is highlighted. Let's assume, for arguement's sake, that the items are authentic, able to be used for their intended purpose and present and accounted for.

What the judges then look for is condition. No points off is "perfect", the points in the middle between perfect and all the points being taken off for non-authentic items, items that are missing or in such bad shape they can't be used for their intended purpose, think of those deductions as good, fair, poor and if you will be honest with yourself you can pretty much judge your own vehicle.

Because one point can keep you from getting the award you want, you need to fix everything that you can reasonably fix and not give away even one point that you can avoid giving away.

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I just showed my Lincoln Mark V at Charlotte and won 1st Junior. How can I find out my score and what was wrong so I can improve for my first Senior?

Thanks, Jim

It is my understanding that one has to receive a first jr. before a senior is awarded.So if this was your first showing then you could be good to go for a senior PLEase correct me if I'm wrong.

Vern

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It is my understanding that one has to receive a first jr. before a senior is awarded.So if this was your first showing then you could be good to go for a senior PLEase correct me if I'm wrong.

Vern

You are correct.

This is from pages 43 and 44 of the 2011 Offical Judging Guidelines.

2. JUNIOR CATEGORY

1. The highest scoring vehicle in a class,

at or above the 365 minimum, is a

FIRST JUNIOR winner, together with

all other vehicles scoring within 10

points thereof and at or above the 365

minimum. The vehicle whose score is

11 or more points below the top scoring

First Junior winner and at or above

330 points is the SECOND JUNIOR

winner, together with all others scoring

within 10 points thereof and at or

above the 330 minimum. The vehicle

whose score is 11 or more points

below the top scoring Second Junior

winner and at or above 295 points is

the THIRD JUNIOR winner together

with all other vehicles scoring within

10 points and at or above the 295

minimum.

Junior vehicles compete only with other Junior vehicles.

2. Upon winning a FIRST JUNIOR

award, the vehicle receives a NATIONAL

FIRST PRIZE badge which must be

affixed to the vehicle. The badge indicates

that the vehicle is a NATIONAL

FIRST PRIZE WINNER and must be

on the vehicle for it to be judged as

eligible in the Senior category.

The badge remains

with the vehicle upon

change of ownership.

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