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Brake system


Guest MidTNDawg

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Guest MidTNDawg

I have looked at Myers and Romars and do not see master cylinder nor wheel cylinder parts. I have not located the leak but I seem to be losing large amounts of brake fluid. Also is DOT 3 BF compatible with our DBs?

Doug

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Guest MidTNDawg

Looks like I am on a bad sreak. As many questions as I have asked, I think I assumed everyone knows I have a DA. I will try to find the problem and check with NAPA, my favorite parts store anyway. Having sat for two years I probably should rebuild the system anyway.

Doug

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If you find the parts at Napa I love you long time :D

Not available at Napa over the counter as far as I know unless you find someone that has or knows of a personall stash somewhere just waiting for you to come along. Wheel cylinders and original Master cylinder ( I dont know if yours is original because I dont remember seeing any pictures ) can be rebuilt here...White Post Restorations but it is not cheap.

Many wheel cylinder kits are interchangeable, this company knows which one will work for your car and that is available over the counter. You could possibly hone out your wheel cylinders if need be and if its still safe to do so and find that kit if you know of a Napa guy that would be willing to work with you and knows what he is doing.

Brake system on this car was originally comprised of steel, rubber, and copper tubing, I have seen the steel lines in such poor shape that they oozed fluid ever so slowly, look for lines that appear to be covered in heavy dirt/dust. Something is helping this dirt/dust stick to the line and it may be brake fluid.

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Guest MidTNDawg

OK Jason, I got it. I do have a NAPA dealer who will spend days if it takes that to look. I will get a picture of the master cylinder soon and post it. I will be going under the DA soon to check everything out.

Doug

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Guest MidTNDawg

Thanks Bob. Here are a couple of pictures. I am assuming the master cylinder to be original. There are a few things not but mostly all is original.

Doug

post-72134-143138510297_thumb.jpg

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That is the original master, be carefull with it as they can be difficult to come by, the models after that master changed so be carefull what kits you think you might be getting. That is a Lockheed master cylinder, cant remember what they went to after that ( as far as brand name ) but it was a whole different animal. They got rid of the overhead canister and integrated it into the master itself as we see today

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Guest MidTNDawg

Thanks Jason and Bob. I don't think I will need help with rebuild. And BTW the pedal has been, and is still, very firm, no softness at all. I will be under the car soon and find out what is going on.

Doug

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Guest Knucklebuster

reply = 2 cents :D

1) Another thing to look for is clean areas i.e. paint gone. If BF leaks it takes any paint with it.

2) Personally I would recommend DOT 5 or better. Silicone brake fluid doesnt attract moisture like 3 and the internals last longer/corrode less. Never saw it react negative to anything either, including copper tubing.

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Be carefull with this. Cant mix dot 5 with dot 3, if you dont get all the dot 3 out of your system which could take days and hours of labor than you stand a good chance of the two counteracting with each other and sludging. All sorts of info can be found online about this.

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You might try Andy Bernbaum for the wheel cylinder kits and Yesteryear Antique Auto Parts for master cylinder and wheel cylinder kits...they apparently deal with cars dating from 1920....the other guy's email may have changed; can't remember if he was an individual or commercial, but sounded like he carried them; not just one set.

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Guest Knucklebuster

I dont like doing this to my prez but you have brought up something I have not only dealt with but taught classes to new mechanics about on the military side of the house. The US Armed Forces made a mandatory rollover to silicone based BF long years ago. The reason was silicone BF does not draw moisture like the glycol based 3 and 4. A system filled with dot 3 and NO leaks will still manage to collect miniscule amounts of moisture during use. Additives in the BF help but it is recommended to change glycol based fluid every 2-3 years. Silicone is usually good until system breakage.

The sludging problem everyone talks about is not a result of mixing 3 and 5(silicone), but results from the moisture contained in the dot3. Many a troop has had to "field expedient" when on the road and buy a bottle of dot3 to get a truck back to the maintenance section. New dot3 introduced into a silicone system will not gel unless you leave it long enough to draw moisture. Silicone added to a fresh dot 3 system will not gel. Any system running dot 3 can be purged by simply changing to fresh 3(additives grab water), bleed and then allow it to drain thoroughly, and then add your dot5.

I know what the net says but after 26 years dealing with the most abused equipment on the planet, I mean how many high school kids drive your cars, I have dealt with this ALOT.

AND.....Silicone BF doesnt attack paint like 3 or 4.

I would also like to state I am not saying anything detrimental against anyone else here, because I feel if you say something negative against someone who might not have the experience in a certain area you do, then that person is the one with a knowledge problem, not the well meaning person who is honestly doing their best to help another.

Still voting for 1930 in 2016:D

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Guest MidTNDawg

KB, thanks for the info. Really good to know. Based on your message I have bought some DOT 5. Boy, do they charge for that stuff.

And now bad news / good news. Bad news - NAPA does not have a kit for the wheel cylinders. If I get some diminsions I may try to do a match up. Good news - NAPA does have a kit for the master cylinder. I will post a part number later.

Doug

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Guest MidTNDawg

Master cylinder kit is in my shop now. Did not look before I left NAPA but no part no. on box or invoice. I will have to ask them. Kit retails for $29.85. If you cannot get locally let me know. I am sure I can ship it for $25.00 inc postage. Remember I told you I founf Triumph parts at the International dealer. Well this kit fits Chrysler cars, Internationals, and Studebakers. I may have missed one. Still no wheel cylinder kits but if I need one I will go down to NAPA with one and go through specs to see if I can find one which works. Cannot believe as many parts interchange not one other will fit.

Doug

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The kit you probably purchased will fit Victory DA DD DC a bunch of later Dodges 53-56 Ford Trucks, some Desotos, Chryslers, Plymouths. Part # is ( hope your sitting down ) 1.

It is a kit for an aftermarket master cylinder that will work on all these vehicles and more.

It may not ( I would be surprised if it did ) work on your Lockheed master cylinder but I am curious to see where you get with it. The piston diam will not be the same if I remember correctly, chances are pretty good that you may need to rebush that master anyway.

Retails for 19.95 here.

I went thru this myself some time ago.

I sent you an e-mail anyway asking for the contact info of the store you are dealing with, I would like to verify it is part # 1 that I speak of.

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Guest MidTNDawg

Jason, will get info and send to you. You are usually correct so I will assime you are on this until I find different. His book simply reflected a 1930 DA but we'll see although perhaps not right away. I will probably drive a little more.

Doug

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I have been curious enough lately to look a little further into this, I thought that Dodge had went with a different manuf. of brake masters after some 29/30 models but apparently with what I have found so far it would seem that Chrysler used the Lockheed system right up until 1962 in all models, as I mentioned before I do know that after DA models Dodge lost the external reservoir and went with an integrated reservoir. The master itself was unrecognizable when compared to the DA master. Hoping that someone might have something further here to add to this info.

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Jason you are quite correct on the Master Cylinder rebuild kit that NAPA sells. I'll never forget when the counter guy told me it is part Numero UNO. (He speaks Spanish).

You are also correct in doubting that MC Kit NAPA Part #1 will work properly. It usually won't, on it own, unless you get luckier than I have been with these blasted DA Master cylinders.

The problem is this: the MC kits don't use the same components that the original mfr. Lockheed used. For instance:

1) The valves in the kit are not the same as the "two-way valve" that Lockheed used. 2) Lockheed did not use that big rubber washer that comes with the kit. This is used to make up for some of the shortcomings of using the wrong valve to begin with. and finally the BIGGEST problem with these kits is: 3) The kits DON'T include a crucial component in the successful rebuild of this master cylinder which is called an "inlet valve seat" in the DA owner's manual. (page 66- item #22).

The inlet valve seat is a thin aluminum sealing washer that fits between the master cylinder head and the barrel. Through 80 years of galvanic corrosion and exposure to DOT 3 brake fluid, this sealing washer completely disintegrates. I was surprised when I found one of these still somewhat intact. But finding it helped answer why I could never get a good rebuild that really held pressure even after the cylinders were resleeved. The kits don't include them and my "expert" rebuilder didn't replace them.

So after several frustrating attempts to get a firm pedal after rebuilding these master cylinders, I finally tried something different. I found a Viton washer from McMaster Carr that is inserted between the cylinder head and the cylinder. This works perfectly! With this, you CAN use Napa #1 and get a good MC rebuild.

One more thing, originally I was sold on Brass for sleeves, but I will now say that Stainless is the best way to go. After taking this leaky cylinder apart for the nth time, the brass invariably gets scratched up, just from assembly. Sooner or later some junk will find its way into your cylinder and scratch or score the brass. It's just too soft. And it doesn't cost much more to go stainless. SS will probably out last your children.

And one more opinion. I prefer DOT 5 over anything that can eat the paint off my car. If you have problems with a spongy pedal with DOT 5, you have got a system that is allowing air into it somewhere. Using DOT 5 and the Viton seal I describe, has led me to a firmer pedal and a more consistent braking action than I have ever experienced in a vintage car. If you use your car as a daily driver and you don't care about the paint, you probably will have success with DOT 3. We have a few cars that were converted to DOT 5 over 15 years ago-when I check out the brake systems, there is absolutely no corrosion. If you like re-doing brakes every 5-7 years and love to repaint your chassis components, by all means use DOT 3. In my H.O., there is no better choice that DOT 5 for vintage cars.

Now on to some pictures of the problem and my solution.

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Edited by idrjoe_sandiego (see edit history)
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Guest MidTNDawg

WOW! That is all I can say, and I think that says it all. Now I need to decide on the best way to save this info.

Doug

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Excellent job on this thread from both of you, I wish I had the comp. skills to edit photographs like you have done. My question is where did you get the sleeves, I am assuming you already installed a brass sleeve, did you do this yourselves, did you install the stainless sleeves? Where did you get them in the correct diam.

I am assuming this because it would seem that you both rebuilt or are still in the middle of rebuilding these things yourselves

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Jason, the first time around, I used a company found on the internet do the brass sleeves. He did a nice job on the brass sleeving and he was very nice to deal with. Ultimately however, due to the pesky seal issues between the barrel and the cylinder head, success was never achieved. His first attempt was to replace the thin aluminum seal with the copper seal you see in the photos. Due to the thickness of this copper washer, the cylinder was returned to me "mis-clocked". In other words, the outlet ports were rotated 30 degrees from their proper position. Long story short, this is what forced me to research the problem of the sealing washer.

So as a caution to anyone rebuilding one of these things, only "clean-up" the sealing surfaces removing the minimal amount of material and use a thin sealing washer so as to not "clock" the cylinder head output ports. The viton seal I used worked well and you shouldn't need to use a pipe wrench to torque the head on the barrel like with a metal washer. I have seen a few damaged heads from someone trying to crank these down to effect a good seal.

For the MC and WC's I rebuilt a few months ago, I used a local machinist to make the SS Sleeves. I supplied the material purchased from

http://www.onlinemetals.com Great company!

Here's what I ordered:

Stainless T-304/304L Seamless Tube

1.375" x 0.065" x 1.245" Cut to: 48"

1 piece @ $72.96/piece Shipping Cost: $12.26

This is enough SS to do two cars (2 MC's and 8 WC's ).

And Doug, to save the pictures, simply right click your mouse on the picture while you're viewing it and then choose "save image as". Give the picture your own name or use the name I gave it and choose a directory on your hard drive to save the picture to. I try to save pictures in groups (directory names) so I can easily locate them in the future. The more descriptive the name of the image the easier it will be to find what you need. Names such as IMG98080.JPG don't help much when you try to locate them at a later date.

Joe

Edited by idrjoe_sandiego (see edit history)
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Guest MidTNDawg

Joe, sorry I was not more clear. I meant I needed to decide the way to set up the files for best recall. Finally decided to use two, one for text and one for the pictures.

Also, FWIW responding to Jason and text on pictures, I use Corel Draw graphics software. A little pricey, but I needed it in a "previous life".

Doug

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Thanks for the information Joe, this is the sort of stuff that should be published in the newsletter in my opinion

I guess I need to as a few more questions, so you supplied him the sleeve and I am assuming that you gave him a new piston or did he use the old one? I am assuming you gave him then the tube, your piston and he machined from there and installed sleeve, is that right?

Was there a cost savings doing it this way and hassle ect over sending the M.C to whitepost or Apple in your opinion.

Would you have done it the same way. Thanks

Edited by 1930 (see edit history)
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Jason, I would probably do the same thing again, but that's only because I know my local machinist does a nice job and under the circumstances, I wanted to discuss the problem face to face with someone (old school). I also like to support the locals whenever I can. That way when something comes up, you can count on them to be there for you. (old school again).

I see no problem with using the well-known rebuilders out there. I heard that Billy, the owner of White Post, recently passed (1 month ago). Just make sure they are aware of the issues this particular master cylinder has. As to price, I think my local guy ended up slightly less, but not by much.

And for editing pictures, I use Paintdotnet (all one word), which is free to download at cnet.com. It's easy to use. Just click on the text tool and add your text in any font on your computer in any color or size. Then save the file and your done. If you need to resize or crop, totally easy to do. As Doug indicated, CorelDraw has a lot more capability, but for us non-graphic artists, cheap and simple is my preference.

John Bittence's CD on the Victory Six has quite a bit of Brake information on Lockheed brakes. While not specifically on the DA, the information is absolutely priceless. He charges only $10 per CD. After I saw it I sent him $20 and I still feel guilty. This is an absolute must-have for all DA and Victory owners.

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Joe, if you dont mind what kit, is the kit avail at Napa the one reffered to? What did you end up doing with your wheel cylinders, were you able to just hone and find rubbers or did you find kits with new pistons and have them sleeved as well, I think we talked about this once before and I think you did have to have them sleeved but where did you get kits from, thanks again for the great info, this sort of attention to detail in a post really helps.

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Guest MidTNDawg

"John Bittence's CD on the Victory Six has quite a bit of Brake information on Lockheed brakes."

Joe, where do I contact John? Just google him or . . ?

Also, I agree with the reasons for using local. A good machinist is worth their price and will generally supply you with good help in other ways.

Doug

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