Dynaflow Cold Start Issue (Drive)

[1955super]

Hello folks,

I have a 1955 Buick Super that's recently -- perhaps for the last year -- been having a Dynaflow issue. I only drive it a few thousand miles per year.

I'm wondering if any on here have heard of, or experienced this for themselves.

First, the transmission has pretty much performed to a T for the 10 years that I've owned the car. Never had any slipping issues. The two speed and reverse perform seamlessly.

There are the occasional leaks, but that's the only way for us to know that these old cars still have fluid left in them. Haha.

The issue that I'm having has to do with cold starts.

Ever since February, 2001, when I start the Super Coupe, I let the engine warm up for a few minutes before putting it in drive.

Lately (the last year) when I put it into drive, nothing happens. It's like it's still in neutral, but the gearshift has actually moved into the D (drive) slot.

But, if I put it in L (low gear), or R (reverse), the car will instantly move in the direction it's supposed to go.

If I put it bag in Drive, and goose the accelerator (my term for slowly pressing/nudging to increase the RPMs) then after about 90 seconds the transmission will begin to play ball. I'll be able to go 1 MPM, then 5 MPH, then 10, which is typically what I need to pull out of a driveway. (Good thing I don't live on a major street.) Once I get above 20, or successfully pass the first traffic light, it's smooth sailing for the rest of the day. No matter how long, where or when I drive, whether it's been parked for an hour or 2, it will go into D (drive) instantly when I return, and it performs like brand new.

Leave it sit overnight, however, and the problem repeats itself.

Other symptoms & observances:

#1. If, after the 3-5 minute engine warmup, I put it in drive, and floor the accelerator, nothing will happen. The ony way I seem to get the transmission to engage is by slowly accelerating. Like I was driving 1 MPH. After those 30-90 seconds I'll get out of the garage, and begin my 3-point turn. I put it in reverse, which has always performed correctly. But when I go back to drive, I have to start the process again and goose the accelerator up to speed. It's usually a process that takes two blocks to complete.

#2. If I start the car, and do my usual 3-minute warmup, and I need to get out of the garage in a hurry, or something, I can put it into L (low gear) and drive away. I can drive around the block, and probably the whole city (at under 25 MPH), but if I put it into drive it's like I'm in neutral again. Sometimes I have to do this, and I'm essentially coasting while goosing the accelerator. Eventually the D (drive) gear will engage. Again, a two-block process.

#3. If I let the engine warm up for 20-30 minutes before putting it into drive, everything is perfect. Put it into Drive, and can actually feel the transmission engage strongly. And away I go. I, unfortunately, rarely have the luxury of sitting around for 20 minutes before driving anywhere. This symptom has me wondering if the issue is tied to the way the fluid is circulating.

I'm hopeful that the Dynaflow doesn't need a rebuild. Especially since it performs so well once it's under power. I drive the freeways at 80. I can cruise at 5 MPH. I even sit in bumper to bumper traffic from time to time.

I really, really, really hope it doesn't. I have a couple of mechanics who have replaced the torque ball boots, rear main seals, but I don't know about sending to them for a rebuild, since it's not their area of expertise. I wrote down the name of the shop in Bakersfield, from another message thread. I suppose I could even drive the car up to them.

Lastly, about 2 months ago, I asked my mechanic to open the Dynaflow and see if there was any sort of transmission filter that needed to be replaced / changed. He told me everything looked good in there, there was no filter (maybe a screen), and he put on a new gasket, refilled with fluid. But the problem still persists.

Thanks in advance!

Edited June 6, 2011 by 1955super
Added Signature (see edit history)

[buick5563]

Forgive the obvious question, but all of those symptoms would happen when the fluid is low. Have you checked the fluid lately?

[PONTIAC1953]

hi, you may have a check valve ball that's sticking when the transmission valve body and trans fluid is cold, and perhaps you're bypassing this sticking check ball when you use low or reverse, might want to have your mechanic pull the valve body out, completely clean it out and reinstall it, and test drive when trans is cold again. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor.

[NTX5467]

Might try some Berrymans B-12 in the atf to clean things up, then a fluid change. That was one of the first things local mechanics used to do when transmission performance issues arose. Basically, it's varnish remover of sorts, which should clean-up sticking check balls.

When shifting into "L" or "R", different fluid circuits are used than if the selector lever is in "D". The delayed engagement in "D", after sitting overnight, kind of sounds more like it's an issue of fluid drain-back from the torque converter or something restricting the particular fluid feed circuit. In some of the mid-1960s A-727 Chrysler TorqueFlites, starting the vehicle in "N" rather than in "P" would result in the torque converter getting "charged" quicker (due to higher fluid flow in "N" than "P", on a cold start . . . but those "delayed engagements" were not nearly as significant as your situation seems to be.

I think I'd try the Berrymans B-12 "cleanse" first, for good measure, then follow it with a batch of fresh trans fluid . . . but most probably use either Dexron III with a can of GM Automatic Transmission Conditioner (fluid detergent plus "seal expander" additive) or Valvoline MaxLife Dexron III (which has the seal expander additive, too) if the GM additive can't be located. Perhaps there are some seal rings which are becoming marginal when the trans is cooler, but are fine once things are initially warmed-up? Hopefully, things will improve, but there's only one way to find out. If they don't work, then you might start scouting for a transmission rebuilder that speaks "DynaFlow".

One other possibility is that, possibly, a particular ball check's seat has worn and eroded, but that would most probably lead to issues all of the time rather than just in the morning, after sitting overnight.

If you can locate the pressure specs, you might get your trans shop to check the fluid pressures in the various circuits of the trans . . . when warm and after it sits overnight. Seeing how the pressure acts in the "D" circuit might be interesting to find out, after the car sits overnight, plus where the fluid level might be, also, after sitting that long.

Be aware, also, that just because the engine's temp gauge shows it's up to operating temperature does NOT mean the trans is at the same heat level after a cold start in the morning.

In the mean time, I think I'd use "L" for those first minutes of operation, then shift to "D" soon thereafter. Reason is that if the trans is in "D" and it's not moving, something might not be getting full lubrication in the particular fluid circuit, which might accelerate internal wear due to "slippage".

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Fr. Buick]

First thing would be to replace engine and trans mounts and the thrust pad. These will impact how the trans performs quite a bit.

[1955super]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the feedback. I'm pretty certain the fluid level is good, but I've learned there's no harm in double-checking.

By the way, I've always used and requested "Type A" trans fluid both in the transmission and Power Steering pump. Is Dexron III an appropriate substitute?

I'm pretty sure the engine mounts are good -- five years since an engine rebuild, when they were replaced. I'll ask one of them to check the trans mounts. I actually don't know what the thrust pad is, so I'll do a bit of research on that.

I have the shop manual -- I'll see if it lists the pressure specs that NTX5467 mentioned.

Finally, I looked up the Berryman products. Do you mean the universal B-12 additive?

Universal Additive

I didn't see one specifically related to transmissions.

Thanks!

Edited March 28, 2011 by 1955super (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Sounds to me that collective wear in the linkage has effectively shortened it. The selector valve moves very little to effect shift changes and it doesn't take much wear to affect shifting. A down and dirty test would be to lengthen the shift rod by turning the clevis 1/2 turn and then try a cold start looking for improvement.

A better plan is to follow the instructions of section 5-32 © of the shop manual either by yourself or a COMPETANT mechanic..................Bob

[Pete Phillips]

Yes, the B-12 additive. Try putting a bottle of it in the transmission fluid and driving the car. No need to drain out any extra fluid, as it will eventually evaporate. It loosens up the old, hard seals and that is what it sounds like your problem is.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

[Bhigdog]

Read your book. The first fix offered for any slippage in any gear is ADJUST THE LINKAGE.........................Bob

[old-tank]

Read your book. The first fix offered for any slippage in any gear is ADJUST THE LINKAGE.........................Bob

What Bob says....

Read the book, adjust the linkage, read the book, do the pressure checks, read the book. Get back to us after that and then maybe try some 'miracle in a bottle'. And please dump (that means draining the pan and converter) that Type-A fluid unless you can find some currently made stuff by a major name brand.

Also don't drive it like that. If your clutches are not worn out yet, they soon will be and that can only be fixed during a complete rebuild.

Willie

[NTX5467]

The Berryman's B-12 I mentioned is the same one that cleans carburetors and fuel systems . . . removing varnish and other accumulations related to hydrocarbons. Also used to clean the innards of transmissions, too.

The mounts could have deteriorated more than you might suspect in the past 5 years. Rubber gets older and drier with time and hot/cold cycles . . . no real way to stop that. IF you can get some new ones, remember that NOS rubber items are generally as old as the vehicle is, so they might soon fail for the same reaons the old ones did. Even getting some from an auto supply source, they might be old but not as old as NOS items.

With solid linkage items, mount "movement" (up, down, sideways, front to back) can affect the linkages' adjustments. I strongly suggest that you make the minor adjustment mentioned and see if it helps . . . which might well further isolate the problem!

The GM Dexron atf spec replaced "Type A" in 1968, for use in automatic transmissions of GM and Chrysler manufacture, plus some Fords. Those earlier Dexron fluids have progressed to the more recent Dexron III and the much more recent Dexron VI (which is a blended synthetic fluid). I wouldn't have any issues with using Dexron III in the trans, but I'd keep Type A in the power steering or change it to GM's Power Steering Fluid (the GM recommended fluid since about 1962).

Type A atf can still be found, but where I've seen it is in grocery stores and convenience stores. No "name brands" per se, but as the specs of the Type A fluid were so low compared to modern atf fluid and additive package specs, the lack of a real "name brand" might not matter that much.

Just some thoughts . . . as others might have theirs, too

NTX5467

[Bhigdog]

My understanding is that the "miracle" seal rejuvenators are only aromatic hydrocarbons that soften and swell rubber. Not all seals are affected by it and the ones that are will soften and swell but they also get gummy and are degraded. The label on that stuff reads like it will cure everything except hemmoroids and gout. Sounds too good to be true.................Bob

Edited March 29, 2011 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[buick5563]

My understanding is that the "miracle" seal rejuvenators are only aeromatic hydrocarbons that soften and swell rubber. Not all seals are affected by it and the ones that are will soften and swell but they also get gummy and are degraded. The label on that stuff reads like it will cure everything except hemmoroids and gout. Sounds too good to be true.................Bob

Well, of course if it softens and swells, it won't cure hemorrhoids. Duh.

Back to the point, did all of this begin after the "sealing" / draining process?

Edit: never mind, I see that the trans gasket was replaced after the initial problem was discovered.

[Bhigdog]

Well, of course if it softens and swells, it won't cure hemorrhoids. Duh.

Back to the point, did all of this begin after the "sealing" / draining process?

Edit: never mind, I see that the trans gasket was replaced after the initial problem was discovered.

HAW HAW HAW. ........................Bob

[50jetback]

Forgive the obvious question, but all of those symptoms would happen when the fluid is low. Have you checked the fluid lately?

I notice your response to Mikes assessment was " I'm pretty certain the fluid level is good "

This is absolutely critical and you need to be 100% certain.

Have you followed the correct proceedure to check the level?

You need to have the motor running at idle and completely warmed up to get an accurate reading.

[Guest Straight eight]

When working in a Buick dealership in the 50's, I observed many 55's had this problem. It was solved by replacing the sprague clutch in the Dyna Flow. This sure sounds like your problem.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Straight eight (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

My understanding is that the "miracle" seal rejuvenators are only aromatic hydrocarbons that soften and swell rubber. Not all seals are affected by it and the ones that are will soften and swell but they also get gummy and are degraded. The label on that stuff reads like it will cure everything except hemmoroids and gout. Sounds too good to be true.................Bob

Not sure which "miracle cure" labels you've been reading lately.

As I understand it, the "more modern" seal conditioners are ONLY supposed to make the seal "swell" about 5% and no more. Might take up for the wear that's on them. Might help compensate for the wear grooves in the spinning shafts they might seal against. As for turning the seals into "gummy bears", that might not be too good of a deal, I suspect, but I rather doubt things will get THAT far. Certainly, it would not affect the "seal rings" which are metallic-based or plastic/nylon.

In any event, these things can be used as a more short-term fix OR for diagnostics. But if it stops the seep and it stays stopped, then that's fine, too.

Hope those h-roids get better for you! But isn't that "cure" more of a cream?

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Glassesguy]

Straight Eight: That was my first thought as well. I had a transplanted Twin Turbine in a 58 Limited that acted that way, too. My clue was that when the engine was shut off, you could hear something "running down" i.e. something spinning, slowing down, then stopping. That would seem to indicate the stator sprag clutch in the torque converter as it has to be locked from spinning on take off or acceleration, but will freewheel at cruising speed. Sold the car too soon to pull the trans and check it out.

[Gene Brink]

'55 manual gives two possibilities. They are:

(1) If front oil pump pressure is OK, remove and inspect clutch assembly (par. 5-20)

(2) If front oil pump pressure is OK, but high accumulator pressure is low and accumulator body gasket is not leaking internally, inspect for leaks in reaction flange gasket. If gasket is satisfactory, inspect clutch piston outer seal and ball check, also oil sealing rings on hubs of reaction shaft flange and low drum (par. 5-20)

Manual also offers this - "When a Dyknaflow transmission does not operate properly it is advisable to first check the shift control linkage adjustment, after transmission is warmed up to normal operating temperature and oil is at proper level." Thise seems like good advice however as your transmission works properly after time it does not seem as though the adjustment is off.

Good luck

[1955super]

I actually found, and just talked to a Dynaflow expert in Los Angeles who has been rebuilding them since it cost $39.00 for a transmission rebuild (granted, a house only cost $10,000 back then). Was going to schedule a time to drop it off and do the pressure checks, etc., but (shockingly) his first recommendation is the "Magic Juice" remedy that the original responders mentioned.

He says that the "morning sickness" is almost always the rubber seals, and that something like Trans X or the aforementioned Berryman's should do the trick.

I don't think I've ever seen Berryman's in the local Pep Boys, Autozone, or Kragen. If I do I'll get it.

Any opinions on this Trans X?

Edited April 6, 2011 by 1955super (see edit history)

[Guest Straight eight]

What has happened in the last 6 days? Progress report

[d2_willys]

two things that would be good to inspect are the hi accumulator seals and gasket, and the direct drive clutch seal. The accumulator is something that can be repaired in the car. the clutch seal will require removal of trans.

As was suggested, I would check direct drive pressure, which I believe is available at the hi accumulator.

[60FlatTop]

I have exactly the same issue with my 1960 Electra. Some research discovered that there is some wear between the plates of the pump. When they are tight the surface tension of the of the transmission fluid holds the prime. The wear causes the prime for the pump to be lost overnight.

The car has been doing it for the 9 years I have owned it. Who ever gets the car from my estate will probably fix it.

[1955super]

What has happened in the last 6 days? Progress report

Thank you very much to everyone who gave suggestions and inquired to the outcome of my situation. Business has been booming, and my Internet time has dwindled sightly.

I'm happy to report that the "Mystery Oil Solution" has worked beautifully.

(By the way, the transmission fluid levels were all correct.)

I added one quart of Trans X to the transmission case, and drove it about 100 miles over a 3-week period before I started noticing a change. Interesting how this is exactly what the Dynaflow mechanic said would happen.

After that, I was still cautious, attempting everything to avoid a rebuild in the near future, so I would let the engine warm for about 20 minutes before driving.

The last three times I pulled the car from the garage, however, I was in a big hurry and had no time for ridiculously-long warming periods -- just long enough to get into low idle.

The Dynaflow now instantly goes into "D", Drive, with the usual "jerk" that we're used to. No more nudging or goosing of the accelerator.

I have to assume, however, that I'll have to add Trans X to the Dynaflow at every transmission change.

Thanks again