Need expert help. What 80's / 90's cars are starting to be restored

[Bob Hill]

The Fiero has a huge following these days but unfortunately most folks are doing restro-mods vs. restoration. To find an unmodified Fiero is a chore

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

The usual crew of technophobes has spoken in this thread, as expected. As others have already pointed out, there is always a subset of the hobby that is adamant that cars made after (pick a year) are worthless, too complex, and will never be restored. History has and will continue to prove them wrong.

As for newer cars with electronics, again GET THE RIGHT TOOLS. In this case, the tools are electronic test equipment, which is readily available today. Coupled with the correct factory service manual, anything in these cars can be fixed, often with less effort (and cleaner hands) than on pre-computer cars.

There are some potential issues. Many 1980s cars use lower-grade plastics that deteriorate over time. The bumper fillers on many of these cars is a perfect example. As with other cars, where there's a demand the aftermarket has already stepped in and is offering ABS and fiberglass replacements. The solid state electronics themselves rarely go bad (despite the first impulse of most parts-replacer "mechanics" to immediately put a new computer in the car whenever there's a problem). What does go bad are sensors and connectors. It's a little time consuming, but these problems can be diagnosed and corrected. Unfortunately, it's the rare repair place that wants to take the time.

As for what will be collectible, well, if I knew that I'd be rich. History would suggest that popular, rare, and high performance cars are the most likely. Mustang GTs, SVOs, turbo T-birds, IROC Camaros, WS6 Firebirds, GNs, Shelby GLH and GLH2, etc. My vote for a dark horse is the Lincoln Blackwood, since only something like 297 were made. (Hint: go to the dealership and buy the replacement woodgrain appliques NOW!)

By the way, the 1980s G-body cars have already gathered a restoration following and the aftermarket is providing parts for these cars. Once again, the nay sayers are wrong.

Joe, I think you are smart enough to know that not even the best of computer diagnostics equipment found in dealerships get it right all the time, sometimes never. Even if that level of equipment were to be in everyone's garage, it still doesn't get past the fact someone has to be manufacturing or supplying the various sensors and switches used to feed info to the on board computer in the vehicle. As time goes by someone will need to be in board level repair of those on board computers. They cannot be repaired by an auto enthusiast unless they also happen to be an electronics technician or engineer. Even then they may get foiled by proprietary logic components on the board that are no longer available or may have never been in common industrial distribution.

There are electronic parts that were used on vehicles as recent as 1990 models that cannot be bought new from anyone and probably never will be. In some cases there is no way to get around those parts and maintain a vehicle in compliance with emissions inspections. Electronic components used in many vehicles will indeed prevent them from being restoration projects. May even make an otherwise low mileage survivor impossible to maintain.

Jim

[Paul Dobbin]

Bill Hill, you are correct. The Fiero is surging in popularity and is being modified, however the stock original ones are still out there in large numbers and cheaper than the modified or updated versions.

I think this is a good trend that is historically following the track of other great cars that have gone through that stage and later been returned to stock. The reason I like the trend is that it brings another couple of generations into our hobby. That is a good thing. While not all will choose restoration, being in the hobby allows them to see what the "Antique Car" people do and maybe the next car they do will be an AACA type of restoration.

[Guest bkazmer]

stereolithography (another version uses a laser and a powder tray) doesn't really make a functional part in most cases - it makes a much more frail "model" of the original molded or extruded, or whatever process part. It's great strength is it's ability to handle shapes that require very complicated tooling to make.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I didn't get the "nay-sayer" picture at all.

The original poster did not ask what cars are going to be collected. That, as mentioned, can be conversed until the cows come home.

The original question is "What 80s/90s cars are starting to be restored?" While some of the mentioned cars may need some specific parts to make like new again, and some – with personal attachments – may be restored, it is at the present time, much easier to buy nice babied examples that are abundant, and which need very little work/effort/money to make into an award winner.

Wes I think the discussion which has evolved is indeed in keeping with the question originally asked. While it may today be possible to "restore" some of the '80s and '90s vehicles they are rapidly becoming impossible to restore due to the nature of what went into them and the availability of critical electronic components. We are rapidly reaching a point with some of the vehicles of those production decades where it is virtually impossible to maintain them even if they happen to be a low mileage "survivor" with a decent exterior and interior.

I candidly cannot pinpoint all vehicles that will be cruncher fodder but a good example will be the 1985-1987 Lincoln Mark VII LSC's, one of which I happen to own. Not withstanding it's ills the car is one of the most fun cars to drive I have ever driven and gets really great gas mileage ( I have gotten over 30 mpg at times) when I keep a light touch on the gas pedal. On the other hand, I'm a realist and know it will reach the end of the line sooner or later from issues with the brake system, the air suspension system, and the nature of its rack and pinion steering set up. Failure with any one of those will result in a parts cost that potentially exceed the value of the car, maybe even the greatest value it will ever achieve. One of the great attributes of the car is found with something as simple as replacing a heater core requiring the removal of virtually the entire dash, not just a cover on a plenum. How many other vehicles by brand and model may exist with similar reasons not to "restore" or even maintain them i cannot say, it is sufficient to say many of the '80s and '90s domestically produced vehicles may be subject to the same reasons.

Jim

[joe_padavano]

To those worried about software and firmware in new cars like the 2002 Audi, heck, there are tuner companies out there for just about every remotely popular new car who have already cracked the source code and who can reload or modify the code as needed. If you're talking about firmware in a computer like a HVAC controller, why would you think the firmware would go bad?

Worried about uninstalling and reinstalling modules that have LAN handshakes? The factory and aftermarket electronic test units already have the capability to do this. As I've said before, I have an OTC Genisys box. I've only bothered to install the software needed for the cars I own, but software is available to do everything people are worried about. Repair shops do this every day now. The capability for the hobbyist to do it will only get easier. For example, you can buy software today that replicates much of the functionality in the Genisys unit with your PDA or laptop. Much of the items that people are hand-wringing about already exist.

Ten years ago, who would have thought that today you would be able to buy a brand new welded metal body for a first-gen Camaro, early Mustang, tri-five Chevy, or 1930s-vintage Ford? 68-72 A-body cars will be next. Similarly, there are already vendors who will retrofit modern electronic tuners and amps into old radio housings and who will convert mechanical speedos to electronic. There are already aftermarket ECUs that replace those on 1980s GM EFI cars and which are MUCH more easily programmed. Parts for popular cars will be available.

On the other hand, parts for less popular cars will never be available and will always require custom work. There are no electronics in my 1962 F-85, but I have a harder time getting parts for it than for a 1980s Camaro or Mustang. Steele Rubber will revulcanize rubber parts on a custom basis if repro parts aren't available. We're worried about having to be an electrical engineer to fix the computers in new cars, but no one is worried about needing to be a chemical engineer to fix rubber parts in older cars. And again, there are ALREADY vendors who will repair these electronic modules.

Finally, it doesn't matter what year the car is, it will ALWAYS be cheaper and easier to buy a complete, low-mileage example and maintain it than to restore one.

[West Peterson]

Finally, it doesn't matter what year the car is, it will ALWAYS be cheaper and easier to buy a complete, low-mileage example and maintain it than to restore one.

You're right, Joe. My point, though, was that low-mileage and babied 1980s and '90s cars, capable of winning their First Junior award, are much more abundant than cars 30 years old and older.

[LINC400]

I bought my first Mark V in 1991 as a used car for daily transportation. It had cracked armrests that are structural to the doors and contain the window, lock, seat, and mirror switches. I looked for ages and could never find good used ones. They were always cracked.

It is now 20 years later. The part is used by all 1972-79 Lincoln Marks and 1972-76 Thunderbird. yet in all these years, still no one makes a replacement.

I saw this scan a part and get a new plastic one technology on a TV show. I searched the internet and local repair places to find a place that had one of these. All I found were places to buy the machine. Even if I did find a place that did have one, I bet they would not be able to produce on for a fair price. I would consider a fair price to be $200.

If anyone can find a way to replicate this part for anywhere near that price, then I will believe that you can get parts for all the hard to find stuff on 1980-1990's cars. Until then, these cars are now 39-32 years old, and still you cannot get a part for them even though they have a big following in Lincoln circles.

So who is going to produce parts for cars that have no or little collector following? Looking at 1980's Chevys.

Camaro, Corvette, Monte Carlo SS, and maybe even Caprice/Impala will have a following, and someone might make repro parts. But what about Cavalier, Corsica, Citation, Malibu, Chevette, Beretta, Lumina, etc.? I doubt anybody will be rushing into production with parts for those. The same hold true with cars from every marque from the 1980's-90's. Not everything is going to have available parts.

Then the electronics are on top of that.

[Barry Wolk]

I want to know where all the electronic geniuses will come from once the junkyard plug-in resources are depleted. Most of the electronic dashboards need to be hooked into diagnostics to even figure out where to begin. I'm sorry. I don't see the talent pool drawn to repairing obsolete electronics.

[mrspeedyt]

wonder if anybody has restored a taurus... hard to think of one being a historical vehicle.

[Barry Wolk]

Jack Telnack was our Grand Marshall last year at the Krasl Concours. I tried forever to find one restored for him to talk about and couldn't even find one in decent shape.

[old car fan]

I personally have got a problem,restoring these cars,I know maybe wrong ,but to me ,these are not restorable cars-Granted,they will be.I'm to old to see this happen,lets talk about brass,and later

Edited March 24, 2011 by old car fan (see edit history)

[Guest wildcat465]

Currently working on an 84 and an 85 Riviera T-Types. Great drivers, good mileage, luxurious, and a lot more rare than a turbo Regal.

Works for me, although, there are many good examples given on here.

I guess I have no reason to bag on what other people like to collect, we all have different tastes. Some cars I have no interest in, but I would never tell anyone that they are not collectable. Variety is what makes this hobby great.

Edited March 24, 2011 by wildcat465 (see edit history)

[Guest BJM]

wonder if anybody has restored a taurus... hard to think of one being a historical vehicle.

The 1st generation Taurus SHO's are serious collector cars. And the 2nd generation Taurus SHO's can be collected.

The 1st generation SHO's have a very nice DOHC V6 from Yamaha and all came with 5 speed manuals. Add the sport suspensions, nice restrained Euro looks of that generation Taurus and leather trimmed interiors - these would make a nice collector.

SHO's can be had for $250 to $1000 in "restorable" condition or buy a nice original for $3000 tops.

They can be restored. Parts are still readily available.

[ted sweet]

wonder if anybody has restored a taurus... hard to think of one being a historical vehicle.

dont laught, i have done the interior and a mechical resto on my 94 Taurus SHO

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

I would hate to try to restore anything from 1980 on as NOS parts would be far an inbetween.As most if not all dealerships sent all there overstock back to the parts depoles for credit or they do not stock many parts ever try to get a trim peice the same day u go there to buy .We are told It'll be here in a few days

Vern.

[joe_padavano]

I would hate to try to restore anything from 1980 on as NOS parts would be far an inbetween.As most if not all dealerships sent all there overstock back to the parts depoles for credit or they do not stock many parts ever try to get a trim peice the same day u go there to buy .We are told It'll be here in a few days

Vern.

Right. It's MUCH easier to find NOS parts from the 1950s than the 1980s...

[Barry Wolk]

I'm with you on that one, Joe.

[LINC400]

Actually my father has a much easier time getting parts for his 1959 and 1962 Metropolitans than I do for my Mark IV. He's got several catalogs. Maybe they are repro and not all NOS, but they are available. Same deal with 1955-56 Packards.

I can only get engine parts and whatever other parts were shared with Ford trucks or other models. Even places specializing in Lincolns have junkyard parts, not many repro or NOS.

Plus my friend, has a 1980, 1981, 1984, and 1991 Cadillac Deville/Brougham. Even though the cars look nearly identical, many parts (especially electrical) were changed and will not fit the other years.

Edited March 28, 2011 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I would hate to try to restore anything from 1980 on as NOS parts would be far an inbetween.As most if not all dealerships sent all there overstock back to the parts depoles for credit or they do not stock many parts ever try to get a trim peice the same day u go there to buy .We are told It'll be here in a few days

Vern.

Dealerships virtually stopped stocking anything but the most common maintenance parts in their inventories circa 1980. Financing of large parts inventories became too costly to even maintain more than a few days supply of even those common items. Regional manufacturers parts depots stopped stocking anything for any vehicle past seven years of age unless it was a part carried forward in more recent production.

Jim

Edited March 28, 2011 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[LINC400]

Actually, it is even worse than that.

If a part is off of a 3 year old car for example, if the original body design and part date back to 2000 or 2003, they don't have to carry it or manufacture it anymore because that is considered over 7 years old.

[joe_padavano]

Actually my father has a much easier time getting parts for his 1959 and 1962 Metropolitans than I do for my Mark IV. He's got several catalogs. Maybe they are repro and not all NOS, but they are available. Same deal with 1955-56 Packards.

And again, parts for popular cars will always be repro'd. Parts for less popular cars, not so much. You can get much more for a 1980s Camaro than for a 1950s anything (except a tri-five Chevy).

[Restorer32]

The old car with the largest supply of NOS parts has to be Studebaker. Was at a Studebaker meet in York, PA a few weeks ago and I swear there were more NOS Studebaker parts in one room than there are Packard parts on the face of the Earth. Parts dealer Studebaker International claims to have many tons of NOS parts they haven't even cataloged yet.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Actually, it is even worse than that.

If a part is off of a 3 year old car for example, if the original body design and part date back to 2000 or 2003, they don't have to carry it or manufacture it anymore because that is considered over 7 years old.

Sorry, but that is not entirely correct. Auto makers are required to maintain parts availability for drive train, suspension, brake, and steering components for seven years (once was ten years). They are required to maintain replacement parts for certain emissions components for 8 years (why one more year you'll have to ask the EPA.) They are not required to maintain replacements for such things as sun visors, radios, upholstery, body parts, etc.; though they may choose to do so. They will choose to price parts in accordance with the inflation of passing years and on volume. Meaning you may not like their price at all or shouldn't expect to pay seven or more year ago prices!

There is no provision for the first production year of a vehicle being the benchmark for discontinuance of any part. If manufacturers continue to use a part for several years, it is the last year used that is the beginning of the seven years for that part. Like the consumer parts stores, they may no longer catalog a given part after seven years under the year model, though it might well have been used on subsequent year vehicles or within different product lines. It pays to know the general parts use practices of a given maker, the guy behind the counter may not be smart enough, or experienced enough to make those kinds of connections unless he sticks his head into the manufacturers parts interchange/replacement number info.

Jim

[LINC400]

Don't remember what parts they were (nothing major), but we were already told that parts were unavailable for our 2006 Monte Carlo SS (and that was 2 years ago). I stated the 7 year thing, and they said the car dates back to 2000. So they only have to supply parts for seven years from that date. Got the same speech from a couple other Chevy dealers as well.

[LINC400]

And again, parts for popular cars will always be repro'd. Parts for less popular cars, not so much. You can get much more for a 1980s Camaro than for a 1950s anything (except a tri-five Chevy).

For a Camaro or Mustang, maybe. But there were a lot more models in the 1980's than in the 1950's, and the majority of them will not be popular collectibles.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Don't remember what parts they were (nothing major), but we were already told that parts were unavailable for our 2006 Monte Carlo SS (and that was 2 years ago). I stated the 7 year thing, and they said the car dates back to 2000. So they only have to supply parts for seven years from that date. Got the same speech from a couple other Chevy dealers as well.

And just what was the specific nature of those parts?

[LINC400]

And just what was the specific nature of those parts?

As I already said, I don't remember. I'm not the one that drives that car. I think it was some body parts and trim when it got hit, and some electronic parts another time. Besides, what difference does it make? When you are restoring a car you need all the parts, not just engine or whatever more common parts are kept in stock. If we had a hard time finding parts for a 2006 in 2009 or early 2010, how easy is it going to be 25 years from now?

And I would think a Monte Carlo SS would be more collectible (ie more parts available) than a Cobalt, Cavalier, Celebrity, Citation, etc.

[Guest PWN]

My vote goes to the 96-97 VW Passat Variant (wagon) TDI (Turbo Direct Injection) Diesel.

What do you folks think about this car?

Fun to drive, quality, lots of space and towing capacity, 37 - 45 mpg, 25 gallon tank = range >1,200 miles, runs on biodiesel, fewer than 1,000 shipped to US.

FEATURES/ACCESSORIES OF THIS TDI PASSAT WAGON:

1.9 Turbo Diesel Engine

5-speed transmission with high speed 4th and 5th gears -(Helps get 50 Mi. per Gallon)

Dual Air Bags - Door Crash Bars

Glossy Paint - No Scratches No Accidents No Dents

8 Way Adjustable Front Seats

Power Door Locks

Power Windows

Power Steering - Tilt Steering Wheel

Power, Heated Side View Mirrors

VW Theft Alarm

Cruise control

Tilt Steering Wheel

Air Conditioning

Built in Germany, Wolfsburg Edition

Built on an Audi Chassis, (this is basically a large Audi with the best Volkswagen TDI engine ever made)

25 Gallon Fuel Tank - Up to 50 Miles Per Gallon - 1200 Miles a tank!

(we can install an extra 18 gallon tank, giving you a 43 gallon fuel capacit y and a driving range of 2200 miles)

Options: Sound Deadening, Corrado Suspension, Trailer Hitch, Tinted Glass, Custom Paint, Computer Chip/Injection nozzles, Aftermarket Headlights, Leather Interior, 400 Below

WHY IS IT RARE?

In the 20 year US history of the VW Passat (1990-2010) the legendary 1.9 turbo diesel engine was only available in 1996 and 1997. The Passat “B4” body, 96-97 was the largest VW Wagon ever made with more interior room than the newer Passats, and they DO get up to 50 MILES PER GALLON and 1000 to 1200 MILES PER TANK!

All of these rare 96-97 Passat TDIs are built in GERMANY and are “Wolfsburg Editions”. (All the VW Jettas are now built in Mexico.) These 96-97 Passat TDIs have less emission control junk on the engine which produces more power and better mileage than the newer TDIs. These B4V Wagons cost around $24,000 when new!

Bio-Diesel ready. War Not Necessary!

Bilder zu VW Passat Variant 1.9 TDI, 110 PS Kombi (1996-1996) Front + links - autoplenum.de

JUST SOLD!! "Candy White" 1996 Passat B4V-TDI Wagon #553 of the original 980

Edited March 29, 2011 by PWN (see edit history)

[Barry Wolk]

Rare does not equal valuable or collectible, IMO.

[Guest PWN]

Rare does not equal valuable or collectible, IMO.

I agree, all the cars on this thread are just "used" cars.

The Passat Variant is one of the best, most versatile cars in America.

But is it collectible?

[Barry Wolk]

I guess everything is collectible to someone.

[LINC400]

Rare does not equal valuable or collectible, IMO.

Unfortunate, but very true.

Plus this post is about RESTORING, not just what might become collectible. I would think you could buy 3 or 4 for less than what it would cost to do a full restoration on one.

[Guest BJM]

I think every one can agree that rare does not equal collectible. That is a topic that has been covered. I will never be a fan of the 1 of .... crowd.

But we collect for so many reasons. Many AACA members have "grocery getter" 4 door sedans from way back because that car offers up fond memories.

I enjoy the four door sedans at meets as much as the sports cars or convertibles. If an owner is there to talk about their car, so much the better.

In that regard, we just have to wait a few more years to see if these cars from the 80's and 90's (other then the well known obvious ones) will be collected in any form. I doubt many will be restored.

[Rawja]

There are comparatively few cars being truly restored after 1979. They are just too complex and costly to to "right". You might see the occasional interesting model "fixed up" or rodded after a fashion, but a true, point-authentic restoration is virtually out of the question for most of these cars.

....we just have to wait a few more years to see if these cars from the 80's and 90's (other then the well known obvious ones) will be collected in any form. I doubt many will be restored.

Hey, can we fight about the definition of "restored" next??

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Rare does not equal valuable or collectible, IMO.

Rare in the case of that TDI PASSAT WAGON only equates to one thing. No future parts support in this country if any to speak of now. No future as a potential restoration vehicle. Actually no future at all beyond the cruncher when it dies like it or not!

Jim

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

As I already said, I don't remember. I'm not the one that drives that car. I think it was some body parts and trim when it got hit, and some electronic parts another time. Besides, what difference does it make? When you are restoring a car you need all the parts, not just engine or whatever more common parts are kept in stock. If we had a hard time finding parts for a 2006 in 2009 or early 2010, how easy is it going to be 25 years from now?

And I would think a Monte Carlo SS would be more collectible (ie more parts available) than a Cobalt, Cavalier, Celebrity, Citation, etc.

It only matters with respect to what parts and for how long automakers must maintain parts support for certain aspects of a vehicle and it also speaks to the future maintenance of any of the vehicles made in the time frame of this thread.

The point being the same one you have made that few if any of the vehicles of the time period will ultimately survive the lack of parts support. Will make no difference of how many today think certain cars may become the darling of car enthusiasts in the future. Too many cars of the given era were for all purposes one year production though the bodies may appear to be virtually the same. In spite of some thinking if enough folks have an interest in certain cars, if under the skin they are sufficiently unique to all others of the same make no aftermarket supplier is going to jump off and invest in producing parts for any one year car. The retail parts industry has been bracing for that inevitability for two decades now, as they fully understood with the advent of computerized ignition and emissions systems their traditional repair it yourself market would be declining each and every year beyond a specifically undetermined point.

We will at some point begin seeing a major shakeout in the auto parts industry at the retail level as chain operators begin reducing their overhead by closing stores just as Wal*Mart took most common repair parts out of their stores in the early 1980s. Some won't remember being able to buy an alternator, distributor cap, or starter for many popular Ford, GM, and Chrysler products. Now you won't even find a set of universal plug wires in a Wal*Mart, not even in those stores having an auto repair shop, which they actually lease out. Wal*Mart knew they had better get out before there was no way for them to support the market to a satisfactory level and make a profit from the department.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

I am an owner of two Reattas, a rare car [less then 25000 in four years of manufacture] in the vintage of which this topic is about. My personal thoughts are that there will be two types of cars from that vintage.

Collected and driven.

There will be little or no restoration. If one was to check sites such as Ebay or Autotrader you will see that cars in pristine condition with very low miles occaisionally come up. They command the big dollars. The others, the "daily drivers" go cheap in comparison, and will not graduate to "collector" status.

[Guest BJM]

Dave

Reattas are being restored now and there is good used parts support. What would scare you (or others) from restoring a Reatta?

This is an issue.

It is still easy to find nice driver Reattas for between $1500 and $7500. No need to do a restoration.

BUT, and here is the big BUT for ALL potential 80's through 90's collectible class cars. IF we don't restore those that are crusher bound like my 88 LeSabre T Type, then the total inventory of these collector cars will ne much reduced in 10-20 years.

Extinct.

So, rather then buy a driver or nice original, we need a sense of stewardship. Especially if we already like the cars of interest. (i.e. Reatta, Taurus SHO, rarer BMW's Porsche 928's etc etc)

It's hard to do a restoration, especially when a person could be "upside down" on potential value. But it's very fulfilling and the alternative is bleak for many of these cars if we don't save them off Craigs List and ebay.

[Rawja]

It's hard to do a restoration, especially when a person could be "upside down" on potential value.

Yeah, but realistically how many restorations are "right side up" at completion?