'91 Polo on NY Craigslist

[NCReatta]

Someone should go check this one out.

'91 polo.. Owner says it has sunroof. I can see 16-ways.. Might have CD.

Thought someone may be interested to check this one out..

1991 Buick Reatta

[DAVES89]

Almost got me to jump, but I decided that my next Reatta will be a '91 Polo Green vert.

Until then I am happy with what I have...

[NCReatta]

Almost got me to jump, but I decided that my next Reatta will be a '91 Polo Green vert.

Until then I am happy with what I have...

So in other words, you'll never buy another Reatta?

[Guest steveskyhawk]

If Dave is really looking for a Polo Green 91 Convertible as I am he has his work cut out for him. There were probably only about 5 produced. A couple of them may have been destroyed due to "cowl shake" (I was told that the "cowl shake" evaluation was strictly a subjective, seat of the pants evaluation.) and an equal number may have been "donated". There may still be a couple in some grandpa's garage somewhere that don't really want to be found if you know what I mean. The owner may now be in his 70s and he has never heard of the BCA or its Reatta division. Grandpa may have never been on this forum and may never have even of had a PC.

I was reading some Reatta Craft Centre literature the other day and it explained exactly how the car was produced and the problems and solutions they came up with. This book explained the technique that was used to paint a Reatta two tone. I'm sure they tried the technique a couple of times just before or just after they put through a few green convertibles. The project engineer that provided me the book confirmed that green convertibles were indeed produced.

[Guest Greg Ross]

I understand this Long Island polo green sold yesterday for $2000.

OH, IT NEEDED A WINDSHIELD AND DRIVERS SIDE VENT WINDOW, JUST MINOR TLC ISSUES.

[NYBobP]

Ed Mertz, Buick GM at the time, told me last year no Polo Green Convertibles were ever produced. Who knows? Maybe one or two slipped out without being recorded.

BTW..(per Steve's post) I'm now in my 70's, been on this forum forever, own two I-phones, 3 Macs, and an I-pad. So there.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Bob,

You may be the exception not the rule when it comes to computer usage. I suspect the the person(s) that purchased a green 91 convertible could have easily lived complete lives without this forum.

I talked to a gentleman that bought a 91 convertible new. He told me he had a choice of green or black. I take him at his word. With green coupes going through is it so hard to believe that a drop top didn't get painted green also? I'm sure Mr Mertz had more important duties than to watch out for green convertibles.

[padgett]

Let's just say I played my first video game in 1957.

[NCReatta]

BTW..(per Steve's post) I'm now in my 70's, been on this forum forever, own two I-phones, 3 Macs, and an I-pad. So there.

Oh yeah?? Well, I'm 16.. and I've got a.. wait... never mind..

My grandfather (going on 71) has a computer. He would buy many more things, and is very willing for his grandson to teach him about all the nifty gadgets, but finances are a bit tight.. that's the only thing restricting him.

Steve, you'd be surprised at how many older folks are very tech-fluent.

[Guest Richard D]

Let's just say I played my first video game in 1957.

Was it Space War?

R.

[padgett]

Tic-Tac-Toe. Displays were limited then.

[Guest squiretom]

i am thankful that i can be fluent every morning after coffee.

[Guest Lone_Star_Reatta]

Back to the topic at hand (NY Polo Green Coupe on Craigslist - May 2011). I emailed the seller yesterday and he reports that the windshield still needs to be replaced.

[Booreatta]

If Dave is really looking for a Polo Green 91 Convertible as I am he has his work cut out for him. There were probably only about 5 produced. A couple of them may have been destroyed due to "cowl shake" (I was told that the "cowl shake" evaluation was strictly a subjective, seat of the pants evaluation.) and an equal number may have been "donated". There may still be a couple in some grandpa's garage somewhere that don't really want to be found if you know what I mean. The owner may now be in his 70s and he has never heard of the BCA or its Reatta division. Grandpa may have never been on this forum and may never have even of had a PC.

I was reading some Reatta Craft Centre literature the other day and it explained exactly how the car was produced and the problems and solutions they came up with. This book explained the technique that was used to paint a Reatta two tone. I'm sure they tried the technique a couple of times just before or just after they put through a few green convertibles. The project engineer that provided me the book confirmed that green convertibles were indeed produced.

Steve, I dont want to call anybody out on the forum group but I said in a post not too long ago that I was going to verify any statement that was ambiguous. The statement that "THE PROJECT ENGINEER THAT PROVIDED ME WITH THE BOOK CONFIRMED THAT GREEN CONVERTIBLES WERE INDEED PRODUCED". Like I promised I am asking for the engineers name. If you dont want to post it here PM the name. If that is not acceptable give him my information, I would like to ask several more questions. I am on a mission to get all the information out there

Thanks

Chuck Kerls

booreatta@cox.net

316-655-1099

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Since my previous post where I estimated that there were five polo green 91 convertibles I have verified that there are only four. One of the four has white interior and was donated to MSU.

[Jim]

Since my previous post where I estimated that there were five polo green 91 convertibles I have verified that there are only four. One of the four has white interior and was donated to MSU.

Steve,

You say you have verified four but you don't answer Chucks request that you provide names or proof.

Chuck asked for the name of the engineer.

Please answer the question.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

The MSU Polo Green 91 convertible had the MSU "Spartan" embroidered on the headrests. This custom embroidery was done by people at PMD.

[NCReatta]

The MSU Polo Green 91 convertible had the MSU "Spartan" embroidered on the headrests. This custom embroidery was done by people at PMD.

Do you have any pictures. I'd like to see them. Not sure how I would like the white/tan.. I'd have to really see it to determine that.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Marck,

These cars were pre digital camera days. Tough to get copies. From what I've been told it has the white interior option combined with Medium Beechwood accents.

[NCReatta]

I'm aware of that, Steve. But does this mean that were just trusting word of mouth? That nobody has actually SEEN green convertible. After MSU bought the car, I'm sure it was used in lots of parades and is in pictures somewhere. MSU fans?

And the car is most likely to be still in existence. Wouldn't the current owner be willing to send you pictures? And what about the other 3 green verts? No pictures of those either?

I really don't mean to be rude or mean or anything, I would just, like everyone else here, like the facts.

[Jim]

Steve,

If you want to be credible on this forum, please answer Chuck's question.

You have posted twice after Chuck asking, but have not answered.

What is the name of the engineer who provided you the book and verified there were green convertibles made.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Jim (see edit history)

[reattadudes]

Jim,

I would like to think that Chuck does a great job speaking for himself without assistance from anyone else.

I have talked with Chuck at length on the phone this morning about this.

perhaps I should be moved into your "crosshairs" with regard to this issue, as I'm the one (not Steve) who has the first hand information.

you should be also well-aware that Barney had already spoken to Tony about this matter. to refresh your memory, Barney said he found his comments "interesting".

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited June 8, 2011 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[Booreatta]

This thread is not intended to get anyone fired up but rather get all of the facts regarding the Green Convertible. I am in contact with Michigan State University and have gone thru the office of President, and there was not a contact there, from there I went to an office called Advancements and talked to Lynn Fast and she didnt know anything about the car. The advancement dept handles items that are granted to the university. She could not furnish any information about the car, but she did send me to a contact about transportation that the college has or has had. I have not been able to contact that person yet, but I will keep trying. Bottom line is if the car is out there I will find it. Time will tell. Personally I would like to find it and see the car, get the VIN and that will end the discussion. Then I can focus of who is burried in Grants Tomb

I will keep everybody posted.

Again if anybody has a photo send it to me

[padgett]

Is Michigan the only MSU ? What about Montana and Mississippi ?

[Booreatta]

Is Michigan the only MSU ? What about Montana and Mississippi ?

Hey Padgett I thought of that also, but I checked the mascots for Missouri, Montana, Maine, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Minnesota, Maryland. The mascot that was on the back of the seats was a Sparten and that only leaves Michigan. The only other thing could be a small college somewhere but I dont think that is a high probably. Thanks and the search will go on

Chuck

[Jim]

Jim,

I would like to think that Chuck does a great job speaking for himself without assistance from anyone else.

I have talked with Chuck at length on the phone this morning about this.

perhaps I should be moved into your "crosshairs" with regard to this issue, as I'm the one (not Steve) who has the first hand information.

you should be also well-aware that Barney had already spoken to Tony about this matter. to refresh your memory, Barney said he found his comments "interesting".

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Mike,

I have no desire to put anyone in "cross hairs." All I want to see in any posting is truth or facts that can be backed up.

This subject has been going on for quite a while and hadn't been heard from since last March. Then someone brought this post to the top again two days ago.

Chuck did a post quoting Steve and asked Steve for the engineers name.

I happened to be looking at the posts and Steve did not answer Chucks question. There is a 15 hour span between Chuck's postings and Steve did not answer the question even though he posted twice during that period.

I apologize to you, I didn't realize I or anyone else was not allowed to post during this time.

I know you have been involved in this controversy but at this time Steve made the statement ". The project engineer that provided me the book confirmed that green convertibles were indeed produced.", and Steve needs to back up his statements.

I did talk to Barney about the "interesting" comments made to Barney by Angelo. I believe Barney is away from home right now so I think it is best if Barney wants to go further into those comments it should be up to him.

You say you are the one with first hand information. That is great. Lets put this subject to bed right here and now. Post names or VINs or pictures and then everyone will know for sure a green convertible was made. Right now is it is speculation because even though Steve keeps posting "verified" no proof via pictures names or VINS has been provided. Post some of that and I will be the first one to say you have been right all along.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Jim (see edit history)

[Guest steveskyhawk]

If you look at the bottom of the Forum's main page you will see data titled "Currently Active Users". It lists the number of "members" and the number of "guests" that are logged in. Generally there are 10 unregistered guests logged in for every member. This post is written exclusively for the guests as the above post doesn't dignify a specific answer.

In regards to what we might call the Reatta Unicorn aka the 91 Polo Green Convertible I have personally spoken to two individuals that have seen examples of this car. This is in addition to the Engineer that Mike spoke with just recently who reported 4 green convertibles of which the MSU car was one.

One of the people I spoke to reported that there was a Polo Green 91 Convertible on the showroom floor next to the Reatta Convertible that he ended up buying. He claimed that he would try to remember where the woman lived that eventually bought the green 91 convertible.

The other person I spoke to was an engineer that worked at the Craft Centre from the inception. I had bought some Reatta memorabilia from him and requested that he contact me via phone so that we could talk Reattas. I made a point during that call to ask him about the production of Polo Green 91 Reatta Convertibles. He positively confirmed that there WERE polo Green 91 Reatta Convertibles produced. He was unsure how many. We talked for nearly 2 hours. He even told me about the day the FBI was in his office in regards to a scam where damaged Reatta bodies that were sold as scrap were being sold by the re-cycler and rebuilt. If I had thought quicker it would have been interesting to know what happened to those VINs.

Recently Mike of buickreattaparts.com had lunch with the Reatta Program Manager. The above poster refers to him as "Angelo". I don't believe Mike or I will offer his full name out of respect for the man's privacy. I wont be revealing the names of my other contacts for the same reason.

Apparantly barney wasn't satisfied with the information that was shared by Mike regarding his meeting with "Angelo". Barney then contacted "Angelo" himself and reported that the conversation was "interesting". I suspect that the information provided by Mike was confirmed however it didnt match with barney's reality. So much for barney's database.

The picture I posted below is of the flag that flew at the Craft Centre. It was taken down and saved by my contact at GM. He sent me the picture along with lots of other interesting information. Who are YOU going to believe?

[NCReatta]

I have no doubt in my mind that 91 polo verts COULD have been produced. I also believe some probably were produced, and may still exist today. But until someone provides a picture of one of the said verts, or sends me the contact info for one of these people, I will remain neutral.

Personally, I don't want any of this "he said, she said" business. I dont want to hear about what one person that bought a 91 new says they THINK they saw on the showroom floor.

I want cold hard proof. Pictures, vin number, or the contact info of these people Mike and Steve are mentioning. I'll pay for time to talk to these people if need be, I'll write them a letter and mail it to them. Whatever.

With all respect, If you (Mike and steve) want us to believe this, I would like to talk to these people personally. Or just send the contact info to Chuck. I don't really care.

Just MHO, but we need a second opinion if you guys want us to believe this.

Respectfully,

[padgett]

Why not just ask those people if they are willing to talk about Reattae ? Should be their choice after all.

[Guest blue72beetle]

You know what they say on the internets, pics or it didn't happen.

I see no reason why they wouldn't have made any though. But no one will be happy until a picture of one surfaces. With less than 300 verts out there, and only a fraction possibly green, that will be a very difficult task.

I should paint mine green, and really throw everyone for a loop.

[Rawja]

Guys, can we just agree to table this subject? We're ALL open and eager to receiving reasonable "proof" of their existence.

This topic just keeps getting re-treaded again and again and always eventually goes the same ugly way.

As much as I believe there the polo green convertibles were made (and I do believe it) Steve and Mike have yet to produce something other than hearsay, and every one of these threads degenerate into the equivalent of:

uh-huh

nuh-uh

uh-huh

nuh-uh

And then the brickbats come out.

You're providing spectacle for those supposed 10-1 guests.

Until some evidence is provided it is entirely reasonable to doubt the existence of these cars, and even though I believe that ultimately we will see the proof, until that time comes I can totally respect the opposing position and those that hold it.

Please let's give this subject a rest. Please?

[89REATTAJIM]

Guys, can we just agree to table this subject? We're ALL open and eager to receiving reasonable "proof" of their existence.

This topic just keeps getting re-treaded again and again and always eventually goes the same ugly way.

As much as I believe there the polo green convertibles were made (and I do believe it) Steve and Mike have yet to produce something other than hearsay, and every one of these threads degenerate into the equivalent of:

uh-huh

nuh-uh

uh-huh

nuh-uh

And then the brickbats come out.

You're providing spectacle for those supposed 10-1 guests.

Until some evidence is provided it is entirely reasonable to doubt the existence of these cars, and even though I believe that ultimately we will see the proof, until that time comes I can totally respect the opposing position and those that hold it.

Please let's give this subject a rest. Please?

Thank you, Rawja....... Jim

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Mike and I both buy and sell Reatta parts all day every day. Consequently we have contact with some very interesting people. Both of us have been contacted by dealers, owners, collectors and people responsible for liquidating estates that contained Reatta, parts, and memorabilia. When the opportunity presents itself both of us ask questions and then we LISTEN. There is an old saying that you will get more with honey than with vinegar so with that in mind we are gracious and will demand nothing of those that have anecdotal first hand information. Under these circumstances these people have no reason to lie. Furthermore when they add specific details of their recollections it enhances their credibility. I cherish these conversations with people that were there. Generally these people are retired and are sharing a portion of their career that their wife doesn't want to hear anymore. We must gather as much of this type of information we can as it is a given that none of us are getting any younger.

That being said it appears that sharing this type of information is stressful to certain people that inhabit this forum. They demand photographs, vins, and build tag photos from the trunks of these cars etc. At this point in time we don't have any verified data on the 4 1991 Polo Green Reatta Convertibles that reliable sources claim to have been produced.

I can appreciate Roger's suggestion that we "put this to bed" until we have verified evidence of these Polo Green 91 Reatta Convertibles. I am not only willing but anxious to do just that as long as the the burden of "proof" is the same for everyone posting on this forum.

If from this point forward all data referenced on this forum has to be verified then there can no longer be references, be they statistical or otherwise, that employs the unverified data contained in barney's unverified database. Fair is fair.

Edited June 9, 2011 by steveskyhawk (see edit history)

[Booreatta]

Guys, can we just agree to table this subject? We're ALL open and eager to receiving reasonable "proof" of their existence.

This topic just keeps getting re-treaded again and again and always eventually goes the same ugly way.

As much as I believe there the polo green convertibles were made (and I do believe it) Steve and Mike have yet to produce something other than hearsay, and every one of these threads degenerate into the equivalent of:

uh-huh

nuh-uh

uh-huh

nuh-uh

And then the brickbats come out.

You're providing spectacle for those supposed 10-1 guests.

Until some evidence is provided it is entirely reasonable to doubt the existence of these cars, and even though I believe that ultimately we will see the proof, until that time comes I can totally respect the opposing position and those that hold it.

Please let's give this subject a rest. Please?

Roger

Roger I agree 100% that the brickbats need to be put away. However when we are told that the Polo Green convertible was given to MSU the door was opened to find it. Two reasons is I want the correct information out there and not some mention of a car that may not be correct. It has the chance to devalue the cars that we all own. Years from now it can become fact like the Tucker Convertible. After 2 days on the phone to MSU I can be 99% sure the car was not and is not at MSU. I have names and depts that I have talked to and wil give that information to any one who wishes to contact me. I also will let it go on this forum. Does the green convertible play a role in the future? I have my doubts but I intend to keep searching. People who know me know that I wont let go. I want the facts and we will find them

Chuck Kerls

booreatta@cox.net

316-655-1099

[Rawja]

I wasn't suggesting that the (re)search cease, just that re-hashing the same argument again and again sans any new data is long-past wearisome. Same-same for the database "controversy" that Steve insists on interjecting at every opportunity.

Let's pretend it's like the big family get-together for Thanksgiving. There are some subjects that cannot be satisfactorily resolved and are best left alone lest we end up with mashed potatoes on the walls and mom sobbing in the kitchen again this year. K?

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Due to the nature of our Reatta parts sales, Mike and I get opportunities to speak with many truly knowledgeable people. I suspect there are some that inhabit this form that are envious of this fact. I cant speak for Mike but I for one am happy to share the anecdotal information I receive about the "off standard " cars. The Craft Centre was designed to accommodate these cars. I have personally bought 3 new cars from GM that were ordered from the factory with non standard colors or color/interior combinations. I don't see how it is a stretch to believe that quite a few "non standard" Reattas slipped out of the Craft Centre. I am pleased that the Comp Nine data base confirms this. I find it is intresting that the Comp Nine Data Base shows production to be higher than GMs official numbers for 1991.

I don't consider this ongoing debate wearisome and don't even know what brickbats is. I've heard of brick-a-brack but I don't think Chuck was referring to ceramics.

The only conclusion I can draw is the old guard on this forum don't want to hear any new anecdotal information unless we can positively verify the data with vins and pictures. To that I say so be it. If that is the burden of proof required by this forum then that completely invalidates the database that has been compiled by barney. His data collection techniques have been unverified (eBay ads, Craigs list, pennysaver ads, junkyard trollers,) and subjective interpolation renders his database invalid. The reason mention of the 4 Polo Green 91 Reatta Convertible raises so many hackles is that barney's database has already been "completed" by barney and cant accomodate 4 green convertibles. He has already "assigned" attributes to to those vins.

If the old guard doesn't like the new standard on this forum for sharing information then I guess it is just plain too bad. This comes under the heading of be careful what you wish for.

[jonlabree]

If the old guard doesn't like the new standard on this forum for sharing information then I guess it is just plain too bad. This comes under the heading of be careful what you wish for.

Ok, We are all waiting for you to SHARE............

[padgett]

Growing up in Baltimorish I saw a lot of bricks. When a piece is thrown like a rock it becomes a brickbat. Als long as just holding up a wall, it is just a brick.

Sifting through a lot of data is what researchers do and for some cars there are indicators particularly in the billing cards, that is not evident on the build sheet.

For example "body in white" has a special meaning, was usually a car designated for a custom builder like Yenko or Motion.

A giveaway for a 63 Pontiac Super Duty Catalina was "2bbl 389, three speed manual, white body". Shortly thereafter the 389 was replaced with a 421 single quad (NASCAR) or dual quad (NHRA) and a four speed. "Swiss Cheese" cars were even more interesting.

We may find in the future that all Polo Green covertibles started out as something else, we just do not know yet. All we do know is that the paint was in the inventory (a number of Cadillacs were painted that color). I have no doubt that styling built a few just to see what they would look like. What happened to them, who knows but have no doubt it will surface someday.

So people have knowlege and Barney has records. That they do not match is common in the motor city. That production lines use whatever is handy (WIH) if a bin is empty is not surprising also particularly if it does not inpact emissions.

So we all have mythconceptions. Think everyone knows the two sides. Until new hard information shows up though, can we just agree to disagree ?

[Ronnie]

brickbatsplural of brick·bat (Noun)

1. A piece of brick, typically when used as a weapon.

2. A remark or comment that is highly critical and typically insulting. More »

Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

If the old guard doesn't like the new standard on this forum for sharing information then I guess it is just plain too bad. This comes under the heading of be careful what you wish for.

I'm not part of the old guard and I like new information. However for me information comes in two basic types... verifiable facts and everything else. Most of what I have to say here on this forum falls into the category of "everything else". I'm not an expert on the Reatta automobile and I never have claimed to be. I'll leave that title to others here that are a lot more knowledgeable than me. I'm quite happy to be among the experts (not one of them) and pass on the knowledge they provide in order to help others like me.

What is causing arguments like are taking place in this thread is that statements are being made as facts with no way to verify them. All this, he said, they said, is not going to cut it as legitimate proof that a unicorn exists. When it comes to stating facts about cars that were not normally in production I feel there has to be something like a document or photo to prove their existence, otherwise it is not a verifiable fact and should not be stated as such. Opinions and questions are what make this forum interesting and enjoyable. Forcing opinions on others only causes problems.

[wws944]

I am not sure what the obsession is with green convertibles to begin with. If one looks carefully at the manufacturing records, there is only a week or so of production overlap between the introduction of green into the assembly line, and the last convertible being built.

If there were a green convertible in existence, it could have originally been, as Padgett put it, a "body in white". The reported MSU car could have been this way. After all, it is reported to have had a completely custom interior too. The car could have been a 'leftover' that was originally painted one way, and shown in the manufacturers records that way, and then got repainted a different color - just to get rid of the car via donation to MSU.

However - who here remembers in any detail what they were doing in 1991? About the only thing I remember about 1991 is that was the year my daughter was born. (Turns out that my father bought our Reatta within a couple of days of the event. And 17 years later, she and I drove it to its new home in California.) Point here is that when badgering old Buick employees, you may be dealing with very faded memories. I doubt that the existence of a green convertible would have been a significant event back then. (Like emails flying around Buick HQ proudly proclaiming that they had done it.) Today it is really a minor curiosity, in my mind anyway, if some car had managed to get painted that way or not. Certainly not of any real importance.

If a green convertible were actually found, what difference would it make? A couple of the folks here would say "tolja so", and that would be that. To the rest of us it makes no difference whatsoever. Most of us are far more interested in keeping our cars well maintained, and sharing new parts sources and upgrades.

And as I have mentioned in previous posts, I own a car which is listed incorrectly in the compnine database. (My '90 Regal is listed as a 'Limited', whereas it is really a 'Custom'.) So while compnine is incredibly useful, don't take it with 100% certainty.

Edited June 11, 2011 by wws944 (see edit history)