Rolls and Bentley owners' input wanted

[Rusty_OToole]

Lately I have been looking at ads for Rolls Royce and Bentley cars for laughs. I am intrigued that you can buy a real nice, Rolls or Bentley from the eighties for around $20,000 to $25,000. This strikes me as quite a bargain.

So, am I nuts for thinking of buying one? What would I be letting myself in for? Are they reliable or a money pit or what?

If I had one I would want to use it regularly in good weather but not necessarily every day. Have been working on and enjoying old cars of all kinds for over 40 years and have owned most American makes plus Mercedes, BMW, and various English cars from the sixties. But prefer something that does not need to be worked on all the time. Any comments or advice would be appreciated.

[Shop Rat]

I just sent you the name and address by e-mail of someone to talk to that knows both brands very well. He is a mutual friend of West Peterson's and mine.

[Rusty_OToole]

There you go. For $32500 you can have a top of the line, 2010 Chevrolet Malibu, Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, or a 1996 Rolls Royce. Am I the only one drawn to the Rolls Royce?

[Restorer32]

A complete brake job on a 1964 Rolls will cost you about $10000. Not a car to purchase on a whim. Repairs and maintenance are exceedingly expensive.

[60FlatTop]

The late model Spirits and Spurs are appealing. It would not be my choice if it was the only collector car I owned. There are a lot more cars that would get my $20,000 first.

The quote "there is nothing more expensive than a cheap Rolls-Royce." should always be kept in mind.

The 1964 does have an expensive brake job. Especially if you have to replace the motor mounts and fix all the deferred maintenance. That cost applies up to about 1981. After that $4,000 to $5,000 will do a major brake job for a well maintained car.

I would budget $3,000 to $10,000 for annual maintenance and lean toward the higher side.

The mid to late '80's cars have less computer and electronic controls than newer ones and would be a better bet.

As with most "modern" cars, they are susceptible to aging more than '50's and early '60's cars.

I joined the Rolls-Royce Club to help me make a more intelligent purchase. I have studied the cars thoroughly and like them a lot. I have a 1964 Buick Riviera, a 1960 Buick Electra, and a 1953 Jaguar Mark VII. The next car I buy will probably be a late '60's or early '70's Electra or Park Avenue.

Of course, that is my mind thinking. If the right Rolls comes along I will get stupid for it.

Bernie

[Restorer32]

A '64 Rolls has 2 totally independent braking sysyems. First, 2 pumps driven off the cam pressurize 2 "accumulators" to a pressure of about 1500psi. When you press the brake pedal the pressure of your foot does not create hydraulic pressure but rather basically opens a valve that shunts accumulator pressure to the brake cylinders. I am greatly simplifying the actual system. Now, a 3rd wheel cylinder on each rear wheel IS operated hydraulically but only to give "feel" when you press on the pedal. And oh yea, those accumulator pumps that run off the cam are prone to failure due to wear and can only be replaced by removing the entire engine from the car. On the plus side, parts are readily available. I too read that 6-10k is about what it takes to maintain a Rolls for a year. It's not like you can get the parts from NAPA.

[Restorer32]

Customer of mine about 4 years ago purchased a 1976 Corniche Convertible with 4800 miles on the ticker. Absolutely beautiful car in like new condition but he's afraid to drive it. He also says it's a liability because now any workmen who come to work on the 1920's house he is restoring see it in the garage and automatically raise their prices.

[Rusty_OToole]

So, what is the typical life span of said pumps and accumulators? If RR engineering is all it's cracked up to be they should last the life of the car, or 50 years or 500,000 miles whichever comes first.

This is the kind of info I am looking for. I would assume that such a system would not fail after 50,000 to 75,000 miles provided the car is properly maintained. Or have I been sucked in by a lot of PR over the years?

[Rusty_OToole]

I heard the same kind of stories about Mercedes Benz before I bought my first one. It was a 1962 220SE sedan. It turned out to be a very easy and cheap car to keep in repair. It did not require a lot of work, and parts were cheap because it was built to be repaired. For example, the water pump failed but did not need to be replaced. It had 2 ball bearings in it and 4 seals, 2 grease seals and 2 water seals. All the bearings and seals cost $26 from the Mercedes dealer. At the time, an aftermarket water pump for a Chev 350 cost $22.

The parts man told me it was very rare for a Mercedes water pump to fail. In my case, a water seal failed and a drain hole got plugged up which forced coolant into the bearings.

The point is, what is the real lowdown on RR and Bentley? I can accept that repairs are expensive if they are seldom necessary. Would also like to know if repairs are beyond a good mechanic not trained on RR and equipped with the usual tools but no RR special tools.

[Rusty_OToole]

Your friend is probably doing more harm to the car by not driving it. If he drove it from time to time in good weather, and maintained it by the book, it would deteriorate slower.

[60FlatTop]

Don't feel too bad about being "sucked in by a lot of PR over the years". The crowning event was when they sold the whole operation to the Germans. What a way to get even for WWII. Mssrs. Rolls and Royce are probably both smiling about that one.

Bernie

[Restorer32]

My biz partner bought a '64 needing "minor repairs" in hopes of reselling it at a profit. I don't remember the actual mileage but it wasn't excessive or he would not have bought it, maybe around 100K. We educated ourselves a bit on the braking system, attemped repairs but gave up when we discovered that the accumulator pumps were shot. He finally got rid of this turkey in a swap for several other cars. The RROC headquarters in Mechanicsburg, PA has a chassis tilted on its side which they use in "brake rebuilding seminars". I'm afraid that in this case the horror stories are true. Google Rolls Royce Braking System overhaul if you really want to study their braking system. More modern cars may have a simpler system, at least I hope they do.

[Restorer32]

My friend is more than a bit, shall we say.....eccentric.

[KRK Sr.]

I kept a 73 RR going for a local Doctor back in the eighties. Sent the brake spheres off to be rebuilt for the first time in 86, so 13 years they were dead. The Mercedes I work on every day use the same nitrogen filled sphere to give the rear suspension on all wagons shock dampening, they are not rebuild-able, but are only $150 each. (todays prices) I think the 80's price to rebuild the RR's old ones was over $800 for the pair. We did a valve job soon after with valves being $150 each when a Chev. or Ford were $10. I always had sticker shock for RR parts as compared to Mercedes. Without a book full of service records I would run the other way!! Karl

[DavidAU]

Brake and suspension maintenance and small electrical problems and the cost thereof seems to be their biggest problem however the tradeoff is a simply magnificent motorcar. Quite unlike any other for travelling in style.

Anyone who says their xxxxxx brand of car is just as good has never been in one.

The wealthy people who pour out hundreds of thousands of $ for these cars when they are new would not buy them if they were not something special.

Parts are avalible on Ebay at reasonable prices ( there is an accumulator brake kit on there now for $570.00) and on the Australian Rolls Royce Owners club site there is a fairly comprehensive technical section called Tee One Topics which is very well written and covers most maintenance and repair jobs. This is a free section of the site, avalible 24/7.

Parts are also seem to be more readily avalible and reasonably priced with the advent of the internet where you dont have to be tied to your local dealership. There are quite a few places in England that supply parts (1 Below)

Bentley & Rolls-Royce Brake Accumulator Kit CD 6000 GMF - eBay (item 140370452626 end time Feb-21-11 07:34:08 PST)

Main Page - RROCA-info

The Rolls

Rolls Royce Bentley Parts - Rolls-Royce Bentley Experts

David

1923 Metallurgique Torpedo

1931 Rolls Royce Phantom 2 Continental

1940 Ford Deluxe Coupe

1947 Mercury Coupe

[Guest my3buicks]

I do not agree with this statement, they buy them because they can flaunt the fact that they can afford one. Not saying they are not fabulous cars, just not agreeing with your below statement. I have many wealthy clients so know a little about how this mentality works.

The wealthy people who pour out hundreds of thousands of $ for these cars when they are new would not buy them if they were not something special.

David

1923 Metallurgique Torpedo

1931 Rolls Royce Phantom 2 Continental

1940 Ford Deluxe Coupe

1947 Mercury Coupe

[john2dameron]

The Rolls-Royce Owner's Club spent a week at the Homestead Hotel, Hot Springs, VA in 2002. On Thursday they had a car show and I spent about 5 hours there. I saw some of the finest cars that day that I have ever seen and met some of the friendliest, nicest people I have ever met. I wish they'd come back so I could do it again.

[Shop Rat]

I was invited by Bill Bibb to ride in this unrestored Rolls that he owns. I ditched my Bill in our PT Cruiser like he was a bad habit.

Riding in that Rolls was WONDERFUL. The seats are so comfortable and soft it is like they are hugging you.

[Shop Rat]

Maybe when I get older a Rolls ride will impress me, right now a Bugatti GP car or Alfa 1750 is on top of my test drive list.

As far as I know I don't know anyone with either one of those.

But Bill Bibb does have a stunning Minerva that I hope someday to also be able to ride in. It has been to Hershey several times. And to think it was pretty much a hunk of junk and was saved from being sent to the salvage yard for just $25. The man that saved it left it to Bill in his will. Now look at it.

[earl e rizer]

A close friend of mine has a '57 RR. It's been off the road for many years and she is going to get it back on the road this year. I told her as long as she doesn't have to rely on it and only uses it for a hobby car, go for it until the wallet screams enough!

They are still a regal looking machine.

[Guest MrZipp]

I drive a 1938 Barker bodied 25/30 RR. It is safer to drive, takes less maintenance, and gets more younger people interested in Classic Cars than my 2 30's Packards, any Model T's or A's, and hosts of other cars I own. I would recommend one for anybody. They can be purchased very reasonable and are much easier to drive!

[DaveBerg]

For the most part the information given so far in this thread would agree with my findings with these cars. I have collected RR cars since 1974. I have been fortunate enough to have mostly good ones with a few nightmares mixed in. I believe that the key is how the car was serviced in its earlier years. Through the RROC and some other services you can generally get the warranty history, build sheets and much other info about a particular chassis #. Additionally while these cars are usually more expensive to repair, there are options. Used parts can be purchased for many of the models and there are shops that can perform quality labor at fractions of what the dealer will charge. I prefer to drive my RR cars rather than show them (simply a personal preference) so I can give you some rough ideas of what keeping them on the road might cost. I currently own the following:

1952 Bentley Mark VI. mechanically this car seems indestructable I have only had it a couple years but my costs have been general service only. I have had some grief with the convert top but that could be with any car.

1954 Bentley R type, I have been driving this car for 24 years. Most years it costs me ZERO other than oil changes and normal annual service no different than any car. The only major repairs I had to do were a complete exhaust system about 10 years ago for a couple thousand dollars and a complete tranny rebuild three years ago at several thousand. Given those over the period of ownership it has cost very little to run a couple thousand miles a year.

1963 RR P5, I have owned this car about 15 years, It was not cared for well in its early life and it cost me about 15,000 to get the way I wanted it. However since it has needed virtually nothing and been one of the greatest cars I have ever owned and driven. So the annual costs have been on the low range of the estimates given here.

1965 RR SC III, I have had this car a dozen or so years, fortunately it did come from the estate of the original owner who took care of it. Though it had been sitting a number of years prior to his passing as he was in his 90's and hadnt driven for years. The initial fix was frustrating and expensive. Since then it has needed major brake work which was $5000. Beyond that it has been great. So it has been a little more costly to keep than the others but still not at all bad over a dozen years.

1977 Silver Shadow II, I've had this one over 20 years. It has been the best Shadow I've ever had (had about 10 of them). Annual costs are minimal and I have never had a major repair. Just regular servicing. I would at the same time warn that the best chance for a nightmare car in my opinion is a Silver Shadow or pre 1988 Silver Spirit or Spur. Yes, you can find good ones in these but this is where I feel most of the rough ones are.

I also have a 1921 Ghost and 1931 Springfield P-1 but these are away from this discussion.

My best advice is have any potential purchase of one of these cars looked at by a professional. There are several scattered about the country. The money you spend for that service could save you enough to buy the right car and own it for free.

I hope this info is helful for you in your decision making.

[Restorer32]

There you go, advice from the man who owns some.

[Rusty_OToole]

Following your advice, I would probably look at post 88 cars with good service history. Does correct service prevent wear or breakdown of the braking system? For example will regular changes of hydraulic fluid extend its life?

[60FlatTop]

The best advice from this string would be enhanced with a strong recommendation to join the RROC BEFORE you buy a Proper Motor Car. That way you have the full talents of the club to help in your decision. Both the national club and your local chapter will give you the support to make an informed selection.

You wouldn't want to buy a car, join the club, and show up at a meeting to hear someone say "Oh, you bought "That" car." It's been done before.

Bernie

[DaveBerg]

The post 1987 cars with a good service history are usually pretty decent cars. Do not confuse the word "usually" as any guarantee you won't get a bad one. It's still a car. Keep up the regular services by a garage that understands these cars. Still pay a professional to examine the car you are thinking about. The brake systems in the cars you are speaking of require mineral oil not typical brake fluid.

[Guest dougmgbwilson]

I own, take care of two '70's RR Silver Shadows.

Many parts are "off the shelf" GM and Girling. I have to wait about two weeks for parts but I live in the middle of nowhere

The brake system, although overly complicated can be repaired by a competent mechanic with a hoist. The accumulators can be sent off for rebuild and recharge.

Any car that hasn't had routine maintenance completed and documented can be very expensive to repair properly. Just like an aircraft.

Of course, major rust damage renders most Roll Royces worthless.

My 2¢ worth.

Doug

Christina Lake BC

This is the kind of info I am looking for. I would assume that such a system would not fail after 50,000 to 75,000 miles provided the car is properly maintained.

[Guest dougmgbwilson]

So true Bernie.

If you don't know your way around these fine motorcars the RROC technical advice about pre-purchase inspection MUST be read and studied.

Do not buy a RR unless the seller agrees for you to get the car to an independent RR mechanic for inspection. Most very competent and well educated automotive technicians know very little about the RR. I spent $500 each to examine two Silver Shadows I was interested in for sale on the internet. Best money I ever spent.

Photographs and your excitement about the car hide many expensive repairs.

[James B.]

I have also been interested in purchasing a 1970s Rolls-Royce but I also know of the downfalls to be expected. The price is cheap because 1) Dealers are few and far between... 2) Repair shops or mechanics now days know nothing about the systems because at one time shop manuals cost thousands and were kept under lock and key for only qualified technicians. The cars have redundant systems too. 3) The cost of parts due to supply and demand as well as the brand name specific only. 4) The cost of gas as this is a 10-14mpg on the highway car. 5) Insurance costs. So it is not unlike what I have seen recently about printers and ink cartridge replacements. They can sell the printers cheap but get you on the cartridge costs. You can buy a Rolls or Bently cheap now days but watch out for the after purchase costs.