Tom400CFI

'10 Hupp drive train repairs...

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Hello gentlmen. Thank you for all the comments and input.

We are not going to disassemble the wheels at this point. We are going to lightly hone them and rebuild the axle ends, then lap them together.

I had no idea, previously, if the parts were authetic/correct, and don't care (not to sound rude -the information, and having the facts is valuable to me!) But this car is far from show quality/correct; it is purly a driver and gets used as such...which is the reason why I dove into this project in the first place. I felt that further touring was getting into the realm of unsafe, and excessive wear to parts.

I agree that my trans gears are fine and usable as is. That wasn't an issue any longer, in my mind, and neither is the use of roller thrust bearings as they're rated for something like 7500 RPM...hardly in the realm of Hupmobile rev's right? When I rebuild the clutch in my Corvette, I'll worry about thrust bearing speed limits! :) Joking aside, the trans is done, back on the engine, in the car and I'm past that now. It's ALL about the rear, brakes, and torque tube at this point.

Speaking of which:

Edgar, I agree and have seen the TT nuts come loose. Check, on the loc-tite when I get to that point. I'm also having the machinist install a locating dowl pin on the front/face/flange of the left side (ring gear side) of the housing so that will help stabilize the TT on the diff housing, IMO. Also will make it much easier to set up the gears properly.

Things are moving though, (albeit blindly?) and I hope to have it back in a couple weeks so I can assemble. Then I have to go get the rest of the car from UT, bring it down to the middle of no-f'n-where, Colorado, so I can put the whole thing back to gether. Man, I can't wait until it's done and behind me. Moving really ruined what should have been a fun project. Now it's just a burden that I want to be over with. :( Anyway, I appreciate the help and input. It definiltey helps to get experienced comments and opinions.

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Well I have somewhat of an update.

Machine work is done on the axle housing, shafts, and hubs. Brake shafts, bores, arms are all rebuilt and are magnificant! All he has left machining wise, I believe, is putting in the dowl pins for the housing halves and the torque tube. Should be ready for final assy shortly (fingers crossed)!

As I said earlier in this thread, I asked him to face the housing halves where they bolt together, so that I could avoid using paper gaskets in the future. I still can't understand how you set up diff/carrier bearings when you hare using a compressable gasket. (?) Anyway, he said that one of the face/flanges was out by over .030". Or 1/32". Yikes.

He has all the bearings in, and I gave him the R&P gears Friday that I had made at Lawler Gear. I'm getting excited. I'm looking forward to "setting up" the gears and getting this thing put back together. Will take pics and post when I get all the parts back and start final assy. :)

-Tom

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UPDATE!

Well, a few things have happened since my last posting:

1. Telluride job went to sh-t, so we moved back to civilization (Park City, UT)

2. Machine work was finished

3. Assembly has begun.

The owner of the ski resort that I went to work at, decided to assume control of the resort operations. Although he has zero experience business operations, he came to town, fired the CEO (someone who ran the resort profitably, and brought it to #5 ranking in North America). Chaos ensued and about 1/3 of the senior team either quit or was fired. One of those casualties was my boss. Everything that she had hired me to implement and drive, the owner thought was "stupid". You know, things like KPI's, Accountability, Damage control, etc. "Stupid". He came to my office in October and told me; "I don't like you. I don't like you're ideas. I think your ideas are stupid. We're going to eliminate your position." And that was it. Our time in Telluride was over. I can't say that I've ever had an encounter like the above, before. It was...surreal. Maybe if the guy knew something about me, or my ideas (or where the ideas came from) he'd have considered them more? I don't know, but his loss. Since I've left, the Corp Lawyer, CFO, head snowmaker, VM manager, VP of retail, VP of F&B and others have either quit or been fired. What a mess.

On to HUPP stuff.

I told the machinist that I had lost my job and we were leaving in a month or less...so FINISH IT! We literally, stopped on the way out of town, IN THE MOVING TRUCK, to pick up the freshly finished parts. How's that for cutting it close! The work on the parts, however, was fantastic and the guy really put a lot more hours into it than he charged me for. He did well.

The following are a few pics of the "reman'ed parts"...

Here are the bearing that we chose to use. The six, sealed ball bearings are for the ends of the axle shaft; the wheel bearings. There are going to be three per side. Total over kill. The wheel seal will go on the outside of those bearings. The seal will actually FIT into the housing now, and fit the shaft! No more oiled brake shoes. The large ball bearings are for the diff carrier.

DSCF0267_zps9a1999a3.jpg

Here is one reman'ed shoe, and the rebuilt brake actuators. The old ones were so worn out, and the housing hogged out too. They wobbled all over the place. Now? Nice, tight fit...smooth operation.

DSCF0265_zpsd08971fe.jpg

Here is the respective, rebushed bores for the brake actuators. They were visibly "oval" before.

DSCF0255_zps72a29439.jpg

Here is the new Ring gear (thanks to Lawler Gear), on the assembled diff.

DSCF0263_zps6c17e40d.jpg

Here is the freshly "faced" Torque Tube Flange.

DSCF0262_zpsb772fc1c.jpg

Now the diff case flanges, I asked him to do two things;

1. "Face" them, so they were flat and would seal w/o a gasket

2. Drill for dowel pins, so they they'd assemble the same every time

Both those things are a boon for getting a correct set up of the gears. How can you set diff bearing preload when crushing a paper gasket? I don't know. Get rid of the gasket. Anyway, the face was out of flatness, by a whopping 1/32"!! Yikes. No wonder the thing leaked. And who knows if the two axle tubes were even pointing in the same direction. Anyway, surface is flat and true, dowel pins will be pressed in by me and I can start setting up the gears and bearing preload.

DSCF0261_zps988fc9f8.jpg

Here is the "new" ends of the axle shafts. Bearing surface, sealing surface, and taper, all rebuilt. Nice. Note that the new bearing won't be running ON the axle shaft as the originals did.

DSCF0259_zpsb1e476b2.jpg

Here are two pics of who I'm going to align and set preload on the diff carrier bearings. The thing originally had about 1/4" worth of shim stock behind each side of bearings. This didn't work at all, and the diff was basically "floating" around in there, making a mess of the bearings, and R&P gears. I feel that this is a better solution.

DSCF0258_zps7948716d.jpg

DSCF0257_zps0e34aa58.jpg

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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Made some more progress and thought I'd post a few more pics...

Diff end of the torque tube, here is the bearing solution; two sealed ball bearings to support the shaft...

photobucket-14836-1366467878940_zps20e4a410.jpg

...Followed by a tapered roller to take the thrust. Other end of the TT uses a plain, sealed ball bearing...

photobucket-14818-1366467910398_zps95207141.jpg

Here is the new shaft...

photobucket-8661-1366467944976_zps3d230813.jpg

Shaft with tapered bearing, gear, and spacer for pinion depth in place...

photobucket-24800-1366467964342_zps1bdd31c8.jpg

Shaft in the tube...

photobucket-14955-1366468010021_zpsb4734019.jpg

Thrust Bearing on...

photobucket-14816-1366470378536_zps5290541b.jpg

Spacer and gear on too...

photobucket-10140-1366470413393_zps975bf6e1.jpg

Shaft poking out the other (trans) end..

photobucket-19991-1366470435103_zps890ac924.jpg

I need to have about .20" removed from the spacer behind the pinion, to get the pinion depth right,

photobucket-9040-1366471373859_zps7ef8ab9f.jpg

....then I can work on setting the backlash and the carrier bearing preloads. Then...ASSEMBLE! The only thing that I don't have clarity on is how to attach the pinion to the drive shaft; the shaft is splined, and Lawler cut a groove for a Circlip to retain the gear. I don't like that design, and the gear has a small amount of play on the splined shaft. I think that I may try red Loctite, the tack weld the nose of the gear to the shaft. Any thoughts there?

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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the gear has a small amount of play on the splined shaft. I think that I may try red Loctite, the tack weld the nose of the gear to the shaft. Any thoughts there?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I would not tack weld or weld solid. Tacks won't hold with different hardness...(especially if there was slop)in my past experiences, and what i have seen on old repairs.

If you have a way to compensate for that play, and get the gear perfectly centered; Locktite makes a product for filling in slop, on bearing races, etc. So, it must be pretty strong. I had some from a Caterpillar dealer with their name, but it was made by Locktite. I believe it was green, and I believe it was rated to .005" gaps.

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Copy that...and thanks for your input. I like the Loctite idea as it doesn't involve heating, and you're right..it is wicked strong stuff.

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Loctite 680 is the grade which stands up to heat and is nearly as good as a weld. I don't know its colour. It is a while since I had my diff apart so I can't remember how I Fastened on the drive shaft pinion. I will be taking it apart soon to attend to some oil leaks and will let you know if it isn't too late. I do remember I had to fit an oil seal on the wheel side of the diff carrier bearing on the left side because the pinion was pumping oil down the axle tube.

I think the machining of the diff housings was inaccurate when originally manufactured because mine was running out 1/8th inch making the whole rear axle V shaped. I had to have it re machined and then compensated for the loss of metal with a steel gasket between the two halves.

Edited by Edgar Bowen (see edit history)

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Thanks for the post, Edgar.

My housing the flange was off square by a whopping 1/32". I agree with you; the machining (and casting) of the parts was pretty bad.

I think that I'm going to use the Loctite 680, and also a counter sunk machine screw, screwed into the end of the shaft, with a head that extends wide enough to capture the ID of the gear.

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Well, one step forward and several back. Moved..AGAIN...this time back into our own home. Moving sucks.

I settled on a solution for retaining the pinion gear that I am happy with. MUCH happier than the manufacturers solution. I drilled tapped and installed a countersunk allen into the end of the gear and shaft. See pics, and yes, I am still using Loctite to help retain/stabilize the gear.

photobucket-8488-1370295507056_zps456708cc.jpg

photobucket-12379-1370295529907_zps137c6839.jpg

photobucket-3651-1370295556427_zpsa1cab187.jpg

Now for the "steps back". With the pinion depth properly set, and the pinion properly retained, I happily moved on to setting backlash. Well that "project" lasted about 5 minutes and I discovered that the ring gear had run out. About .030" or more. No way I can set backlash with that. Further investigation showed me that the flange and shoulder that the ring gear mounts on the differential case was severely mis-machined (originally, I assume), and it appeared to be my problem. I took the differential case to a machine shop and had them weld up, then cut back down that face.

photobucket-4277-1370296872176_zps7453a6b2.jpg

After that, we slapped the ring gear on and @#$@#%!!! Ring gear STILL had runout (~.020" now). I finally placed just the ring gear on my diff case bearing, spun it w/the dial indicator and...it's bent/warped. The ring gear, brand new...is freakin' bent. In the following pic, you can see markings that show where/how it is bent.

L=Low point

M=Mid

H=High point

You can also see from this, that the warping is not symmetric; it is concentrated mostly in one spot...

photobucket-6414-1370295435014_zps79df2add.jpg

I'm going to overnight the gear to Lawler today, and they're going to try to fix it....FINGERS CROSSED!

In the mean time, I'm debating using the old ring gear here...

photobucket-10998-1370295486438_zps293c0e9f.jpg

...but everything I know about Ring and pinions says that if I do, the mis-matched gears will basically chew each other up. Plus, I already spend money for nice, NEW gears.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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I feel greatly for you Tom. I ended up machining the housing to fit a T Ford dif gear set. The T Ford parts also had to be adapted slightly. It has proved reliable and the upside is more speed.

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Sorry Tom I feel for you as well. After pulling my motor recently to replace the camshaft which in the end necessitated a new cam and bottom end rebuild. I have now developed a rattle when the car is warm .Only intermittent at idle in the back of the motor or clutch /gearbox area -It really sounds like something is loose in there and bouncing around . So out comes the motor/gearbox again to investigate this . Frustrating aren't they ! Karl

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Thanks for the nice comments guys. This IS frustrating...especially since I have a deadline. The frustration isn't so much the CAR...that is a little frustrating when you discover something that was made so poorly, but everything can be fixed. The real frustration for me is the PEOPLE. I didn't mention this above, but the FIRST time that I took the diff carrier to the machine shop to have it trued up, they had it for three days, charged me $300 and when I got it back...the flange for the ring gear still wasn't true! Geeze! I took it back and stood there and watched them cut it again in a CNC lathe (the pic above) and I could see it go from totally out of whack, to nice and true. Progress, but I had to "baby sit" the process to make it happen.

Now with the ring gear, I sent it back to the place that made it. I spoke with them yesterday to confirm that they had received it and were working on it. They were so that was good. Unfortunatly the gentleman who I spoke with bascially told me that ring gears are never true. He said that on most modern cars, when you buy a new R&P, the ring gear has runout anyway. He was basically saying that he couldn't understand why runout was a problem for me when "everyone else uses ring gears that have runout". He also explained that when you heat treat a gear, it's going to warp...now way to avoid it.

This is BS. New cars' ring gears aren't warped and they do not have run out. There is no possible way to set backlash with any ring gear that has runout! They emailed me this AM saying that "WE HAVE TRUED UP THE MOUNTING SURFACE AS BAST AS CAN BE DONE. THIS PART WILL BE SHIPPED TODAY." ...so we'll see how it came out, but for $1800...that thing better be straight.

So while the car presents it's challenges, I accept and enjoy solving those challenges. It's dealing with people who don't "get it" that presents the major challenge. A co-worker of mine used to say, "If you don't have people problems, you don't have problems". It's true. I SO WISH that I had machining tools in my garage.

Karl, I'm bummed to hear that you're having noise in your motor...but curious to hear what is causing it. Good luck w/your investigation!!

-Tom

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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Fired it up last night! First time the engine has fired in several years. Wow. Anyway, fired right up and sounds good, which was nice. No reason why it shouldn't have, but still, it's nice when it does. I set my timing at 15* BTC and I think it's about the same as it was before I took it apart (didn't check it when I took it apart), based on the way it runs and sounds.

I discovered a couple things, one I predicted, one that I did not and am a little disappointed about. When I replaced all the clutch bushings with roller bearings, I hoped that it would dramatically reduce friction. It did, which created good results..and a bad one. I can put it in second gear, depress the clutch pedal, and turn the transmission output shaft by hand. That would have been impossible before. So the bearings work. Unfortunately, they work so well, that when the engine is running and you depress the clutch, the input shaft of the trans never stops spinning! The "drag" of the oil on the multiple clutch disks is far greater than the drag of the bearings, so when you release the clutch, the disks keep spinning at engine speed. This makes it impossible to put into gear w/o a little grinding. I don't know what to do about that...or if I should do anything. There is very little (no meaningful) inertia to the disks, so moving it into 1st gear quickly results in very little grind -more like a "whack"....it's basically very similar to clicking a dirt bike into gear from neutral. I'm not sure what to think about this issue.

Still waiting on the ring gear. Thing better be straight when it arrives, but I don't have much hope that they were able to "fix" a warped gear.

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Great to hear you have had the engine running Tom. Your problem with the clutch sounds to be of your own making and simple to fix. Have you put a heavy oil in the gearbox? If you have, drain it all out and flush the gearbox with kerosine because it runs on engine oil. I use an SAE 20-50 multigrade oil in both engine and gearbox.

I check and top up the engine oil every 1½ - 2 hours running time and change the engine oil only, every 10 hours of running time. It takes a mere 1 litre (2 pints), and with no filter I figure that is cheap insurance. When I pulled the engine down after 150 hours work it was as clean as a whistle with no sludge.

You will find the gearbox performs beautifully and with a little practice you will not only change from low to high but by double de-cutching from high into low as well. I generally wait until the speed drops to 10 MPH before slipping the lever into neutral, revving hard and then moving it into low. Actually I always double de-clutch going into high speed as well to preserve the gears. If you get a lot of chatter when you let out the clutch it means that it needs tightening up on the coil spring. That is done with the three square holed screws accessible through the gearbox cover. If you have a 1910 Model B, tough luck because there is no adjustment.

From Edgar Bowen

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Thanks for the tips Edgar. I'm running Valvoline 75w-90 full synthetic gear oil in the trans, which is about the same viscosity as 20w-50 engine oil that you are running.

I received the ring gear back today, and it was still f'ed. It was less bent than when I sent it, but still bent, and in two places. Spinning it w/my dial indicator on it, the dial indicator would show tow "high spots" and two "low spots" per revolution. I"m running out of time, here and getting anxious, so I worked on the gear myself and got it pretty darn true. I think that it's about as good as it's going to get. I'm going to move forward w/the assembly of the rear as it is.

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Hi Tom, Nice to hear you are getting close. Did you replace the clutch shifter ring thrust washer ( #221 1/2 - the big bronze washer) with a roller thrust bearing ?

The bronze acts as a clutch brake ( also a hill brake) .

You might try shifting into reverse first.

Ken

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Yeah, I replaced every both the throw out bushing and the thrust bushing with roller/needle thrust bearings. I wanted to eliminate the friction that makes the car "brake" when you depress the clutch pedal for several reasons, but I completely failed to think about the friction between the disks when the clutch is depressed from oil/close proximity of the disks.

The thing will work, it's just disappointing that it will always grind or bang going into gear now, and shifting UP 1>2 will be tough going up hill, as the motor will have to slow all the way down to 2nd gear speed before you can go to second w/o a grind. My goal was to eliminate friction and try to improve shifting but there just isn't any great solution and that is b/c of the wet clutch design.

We'll see how it drives for real, soon I guess. Thanks for the comments :)

-Tom

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UPDATE....and then I need HELP. :(

More progress on the rear. Here are the new rear wheel bearings. There are three on each side. Load rating is 2400 lbs, so with 6 back there, my GRWR should be >12,000 lbs! :D

photobucket-9724-1371405009495_zps8c8b9a56.jpg

Here is the seal solution. No more "oiled" brakes!! Woo-hoo!

photobucket-13431-1371405068511_zpsd0930ee2.jpg

Here is a pic showing my dowel/locating pins....

photobucket-3604-1371405115591_zps98a796c2.jpg

Rear assembled...

photobucket-1625-1371405160114_zpsde63b25a.jpg

Getting a little help with the brakes...

photobucket-4086-1371405190268_zps7df40fc9.jpg

Now for the HELP! part....

I installed the new tires onto the rims. Learned a couple things about that, that sped up the process...one of which is that the "trash bag method" sucks. It didn't help the tire go on appreciably easier, and then I couldn't get the thing out! I had to pull the tire again, to get the trash bag out. Anyway got the tires on and went to pack the wheel bearings and put the wheels on. Upon cleaning the races, I found this on the outer race....

photobucket-6801-1371404692649_zpsa87ccc6b.jpg

I don't know if you can see in the pic but the race looks BEAT. Also, it LOOKS like there is some kind of steel ring pressed onto the outer most part of the race (?) and that part looks broken....or something. To check, I put the balls in the outer race, then took the inner race/nut and put in on the balls -my intent was to spin it and see how rough it felt. Well, I couldn't even test that, b/c the I/D of the inner race/nut hit the I/D of the outer race (in the hub) before the inner race/nut contacted the balls! That's how shot, the outer race (in the hub) is! Yikes. I checked the other wheel and it was the same. SO, The outer race needs to come out. I used a bearing punch to push the race out of the hub, and this is what I got;

photobucket-2162-1371404893298_zps46637e5c.jpg

photobucket-1020-1371404921205_zpse71e26e9.jpg

The race came with the threads that the hub cap screws onto. Did I break the end of the hub off?? IDK. Here is a pic of the hub...which has what looks like....and outer bearing race! WTF!?

photobucket-12582-1371404797167_zpsbb82947b.jpg

Well, I decided to try to pull that piece of steel/ring out of the outer race. I used a seal puller tool, and applying NOT much pressure, this happened...

photobucket-5731-1371404961787_zpsc2b3f522.jpg

So I don't know WHAT is going on w/this hub/bearing assy. Man, I am frustrated. I was really hoping to actually DRIVE the car today, but that isn't going to happen. What do I do now? Any clarification on what the hub assy is supposed to look like? THANKS in advance!

-Tom

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Tom... What ball-bearing sizes are you using on the wheels?

Use soap (or tire lubricant) on your tires to help them slip over the rims. The trash bag method works nicely, except when it doesn't!

Phil

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The balls that I have are very slightly smaller than 3/8 inch on the outside (where the problem is). They are .372" or so...probably from wear. The inner balls are .513" -probably supposed to be "1/2" " but like almost everything on this car, the actual measurements aren't quite what you'd think they would be.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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Tom, it appears that the outer race was seized to the hub around the threaded end where the hub cap screws on. When you pushed the bearing race out the threaded end of the hub broke off. I see no repair that will fix your problem(safely anyways). Your best bet would be to start a search to find a used hub, plus check the other side for signs of abuse, you may need a pair. Good luck in your search. --Bob

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Well that totally stinks. I'll tell you what, the thing broke w/VERY little effort. Very little. Then when I broke the race/cup, trying to get that steel ring out...THAT thing broke even easier! I barely applied any pressure, and POP!...it was in two pieces.

What is that machined surface on what is left of the hub? Is that nothing more than a "backing" for the outer race to back up against?

The other wheel is the same (worn out) situation...should I even attempt to get the race out of that one? Hub isn't much good now anyway...with a toasted race, the way I see it.

I am planning to take the car on a tour next week....I think that I'm dead-in-the-water. Thanks for the input.

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I took a couple more pics b/c I'm still trying to understand what parts are bearing race, and what parts are hub. I don't want to attempt to take apart the other hub until I figure this out.

Here is the race (left foreground), that "steel ring" that I mentioned earlier (back ground), and the threaded part of the hub, for the hub cap....

photobucket-6324-1371498901962_zps88fff1e3.jpg

I have this idea that the "steel ring" was part of the outer race and the balls wore/cut through it, separating it from the main part of the outer race. I don't know though. Don't know why else that ring would be there, and I can't explain why the "rear" of the race is so rough -like it broke off something, itself. (?)

Stacked, it doesn't even look like the race could be pressed into the hub!...

photobucket-5401-1371498950466_zps0378e6b1.jpg

Here is just the threaded part of the hub w/that "steel ring" put of it. I'm guessing that this part...

photobucket-4935-1371498991807_zpsb82d773e.jpg

is supposed to be attached to this part...

photobucket-1424-1371499028827_zpsf14c57a3.jpg

...like this? Is this how the hub "should" look?

photobucket-6322-1371499075115_zps152b884f.jpg

...because no matter how I rotate the threaded part, i can't seem to get it to "fit" onto the end of the hub. Usually when metal breaks, you can get it to line back up and it fits together nicely. This...it looks like that threaded part never went there.

Edited by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

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