PreWar Mercedes Benz

[Dave Mitchell]

I can send you photos or I have some photos on my facebook page. packard12s@hotmail.com

Dave, is there a URL where I can see photos of this car/color?

[Dave Mitchell]

Photos sent

I can send you photos or I have some photos on my facebook page. packard12s@hotmail.com

[alsancle]

So the engine has already been set back 5 inches for the special roadster setup? Did you ever find out where the wheels came from?

[alsancle]

Craig, the 1990 Sothebys Cab A & the 3 from 2001 "The Auction" are in the lists I gave you.

[Dave Mitchell]

MB asked Jan to not include serial numbers for the cars in his books because they don't want people building cars around serial numbers. Jan knows has all the numbers in his head though!

[Davlet]

chassis # 113636 is any body have photos of that car? I have been told that car already restored.

[540K]

MB asked Jan to not include serial numbers for the cars in his books because they don't want people building cars around serial numbers. Jan knows has all the numbers in his head though!

Absolutely right. I am not trying to find chassis numbers for every car made, just the "known" cars that survive. Jan did include chassis numbers for the known cars in Volume 2 and in his third book about cars sold to the Norse countries. I understand and agree that info on "unknown" cars should not be published for the very reason you state.

[alsancle]

Do you know the story of the chassis, when the roadster body was built, etc? Interesting that they swapped out the wheels. Usually the wheels don't go missing as it makes it hard to push the chassis around.

[Dave Mitchell]

I wasn't implying anything, I just don't want you to run afoul of DB. Jan is very precise and strives to keep track of cars, but it isn't easy. I know that there are at least a couple instances of multiple cars with the same numbers, and the cars move around from one country to another.

Absolutely right. I am not trying to find chassis numbers for every car made, just the "known" cars that survive. Jan did include chassis numbers for the known cars in Volume 2 and in his third book about cars sold to the Norse countries. I understand and agree that info on "unknown" cars should not be published for the very reason you state.

[Davlet]

Hello every one

reproduction chassis for sale 250 000$ all engine, transition. frame.

Reproduced chassis Complete shassi

[ATTACH=CONFIG]177460[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]177461[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]177462[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]177463[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]177464[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]177465[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]177466[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]177467[/ATTACH]

[540K]

I would like to hear from those of you who have actually driven the 500K and 540K cars. It seems most of the period reviews suggest they handled well, but that was the thirties. The few people I have talked to recently who have driven them say they are quite beastly. For example, how difficult is it to turn these cars into tight quarters at very low speed? What do you think the turning radius is for these cars? Thanks.

[alsancle]

The 500k and 540k have similar road characteristics. The increased hp of the 540 is mostly offset by more weight. Both have very smooth rides for being prewar. I have never really driven either model very hard so I can't tell you what the swing rear end does in a power corner. The gearing between the 540 and 500 is slightly different. In both models you need to be in second gear at 10 mph. Unless you are on a hill 4th gear is good around 45. Getting in and out of 4th takes a bit of practice as it is a clutch less shift,

A properly tuned fuel system and blower are critical if you want the Supercharger to do anything but make noise. It can be useful on grades but it requires a bunch of fuel to be dumped into the carb when engaged and that requires lots of mechanisms to operate correctly. It reminds me if opening the secondary barrels on a 4 barrel carb plus a siren.

The cars are really not that big size wise but are fairly heavy. Yes the steering is tough when barely moving but once you are over 5 mph it easy. In general the cars give off a very sturdy feel behind the wheel. They are very fast for their era but not sports cars like much lighter Alpha or BMW.

[alsancle]

Btw, if you spend all day driving around in a nice modern car then almost any pre 1940 design feels beastly when you go for a ride. The big plus to the 500k/540k is that they will do modern speeds without the need for modification like almost every other car of the same era.

Edited March 23, 2013 by alsancle
spelling (see edit history)

[alsancle]

For those of you in the market this sidemount version 540k Cab A posted earlier in the thread sold at the Arizona auctions post block for 1.3 U.S.

As I posted previously, losing the chrome doodads and trinkets bolted on, drop the whitewalls, do the mechanical work and leave the rest alone. A full restoration at a reputable shop will be north of 700k and I do not believe these cars bring 2 million.

I think it has been a few years since anyone as brought a 540k on a CCCA Caravan and this would be prime transportation amongst all those 41 Cadillacs.

[tilomagnet]

Agreed. This car actually has nice patina of an older restoration. $1.3 sounds steep though considering it will cost a bit to get it mechanically sorted out.

[alsancle]

This picture was sent to me by a friend. It was taken in upstate NY at Dick Saunders house probably in the 1960s. Does anybody recognize this 540k Cabriolet B? I have not seen it before.

[alsancle]

A rare 37 230 Roadster coming up for auction.

http://www.coys.co.uk/auction.php?itemID=2715&auctionID=30

Chassis Number: 155157 The Mercedes-Benz 170 was the first of a family of cars which would be produced until the 1950s. The design was revolutionary, with a box section chassis and four-wheel independent suspension. The 170 was a huge success, spawning larger engined variants the 200 in 1932 and the 230 in 1936.

The 230 was offered with a variety of factory-built coachwork from the Mercedes coachworks shops at Sindelfingen. They-were all mounted on the long chassis (produced until 1941). A short-chassis version was made available only in 1937, with a choice of two cabriolet styles, a roadster, a coupe and a sedan.

This pre-war Mercedes Benz 230 Roadster is indeed an extremely rare find, being one of only 38 made, of which probably only a handful survived.

This stunning car is still fitted with its original 2 seat plus dickey roadster body which is described to be in very good condition. Adding to its remarkable history, this 230 Roadster has been with the current vendor for over 30 years- has been dry stored in a dehumidified garage during recent years.

According to the vendor, German paperwork highlights that the Mercedes was last used on the road in 1986, and therefore we are advised it would benefit from some re-commissioning prior to being used and enjoyed again.

Purchased in Holland in 1980, it is presented in wonderful and largely unmolested and original condition; this time warp short wheel base 230 Roadster provides an unrepeatable opportunity for any important pre war collection of Mercedes Benz cars. It is indeed rarer than its brothers with values in the millions of Euros, the 500K and 540K roadsters.

Dieser Vorkriegs Mercedes Benz 230 Roadster ( W 143 ) it ein extrem seltener Fund, ist er doch einer von nur 38 gebauten, von welchen wahrscheinlich nur eine Handvoll überlebt haben. Darüberhinaus besitzt der Wagen noch immer seine Original Karosserie, 2 - sitzig mit Schwiegermuttersitz, welche in sehr gutem Zustand ist, dank einer fachgerechten Aufbewahrung in einer trockenen ( enfeuchteten Garage ) seit seiner Jahrzehnte zurückliegenden Restauration. Die deutschen KFZ - Papiere geben Aufschluß darüber, dass der 230 Roadster seit 1986 stillgelegt wurde, weshalb eine mechanische Durchsicht und entsprechende Arbeiten vor erneuter Inbetriebnahme nötig sind. Dieser Mercedes ist insgesamt in unverbasteltem und weitgehend originalen Zustand und ohne Zweifel eine extrem seltene Gelegenheit für Sammler und Liebhaber gleichermassen.

Estimate

€100,000 - €130,000

[alsancle]

An interesting Type Nuremberg 500 of 1935 vintage for sale. The Type 500 is not the 500k as it has a non-supercharged flathead straight 8. While the 3 window or business coupe was very popular in the U.S. you see very few MB with that body style. Here is the link.

[540K]

A 540K Spezial Roadster is for sale in Malaysia, #130888, but I cannot get the agent to tell me the price or anything about it. Not a very good sales approach. Maybe it is a rebodied car, I don't know.

[alsancle]

There is a red one that pops up for sale in the far east every few years. Perhaps the same one?

[540K]

There is a red one that pops up for sale in the far east every few years. Perhaps the same one?

Yes, it is red. The broker finally responded this morning that the asking price is $8M USD, but taking offers. For that kind of money it better be an original SR. The broker is not very free with information, which to some extent is understandable.

[540K]

In my continuing quest for info on period-correct paint, this weekend I bought a 1935-1936 paint chip card for US cars, printed by the Ditzler Color Company. Interestingly, this is printed on the back: "... This was brought about because of a change in the kind of polychromatic base lacquer used to produce the 1935 colors. The lower IM number should be specified for the color in which the flakes of metallic aluminum are visible to the eye, while the higher IM number should be used in ordering material for the same color in which these aluminum particles are scarcely visible. Generally, the lower IM number is for 1935 models. The 1936 models require the higher IM numbers in all cases."

I also found this in another forum: "I'll have to stand corrected on the earliest use of metallic paint! The ACD Museum [displayed] a 1927 Duesenberg Model X sedan which is listed there as being an all-original, unrestored car. It's painted in a now-faded green, which has a very, very fine (almost pearlescent fine) metallic powder in it." Consensus is that aluminum particles were not unusual from the late '20's on.

So, that seems to answer the question whether pearlescent or metallic paints would be period-correct for 1936 American cars. I assume MB could have done or were doing the same thing in the Sonderwagen division. I think the "visible to the eye" reference on the color chart probably means extremely fine particles compared to modern metallics, and the "scarcely visible" means exactly that. Two degrees of very tiny particles. I am feeling more comfortable going with at least a small amount of metal particle for my car.

The AACA manual/rules apparently state that the first use of metallic paint was November 1927, and prior use is "original" upon proper documentation.

Edited April 1, 2013 by 540K (see edit history)

[tilomagnet]

Here are some photos of S/N 408370, a third series Special Roadster. The first pic is one of only two pre WWII photos of this car that I know of. It was delivered to the Romanian Royal family and remained in the Soviet Union until the 1990ies. Found in a very sorry state it was restored by Kienle in Stuttgart. I saw this car when it had its first outing after the resto at the Ennstal Classic rallye in Austria about 10 years ago. I've been told that the original engine from this car became separated and later turned up in one of the Baltic countries. Today it retaines the original frame, matching engine, the original 5 speed gearbox and about half of the original bodywork, so despite the poor condition when it turned up, its still got a good amount of original Sindelfingen content.

[alsancle]

Beautiful car. Although the 750 Michelin radials are too big for the fender opening. Would be great to see what it looked like prior to restoration.

[540K]

Beautiful car. Although the 750 Michelin radials are too big for the fender opening. Would be great to see what it looked like prior to restoration.

I am surprised Kienle would make that mistake. My understanding is the 650/700 is the correct size.

[alsancle]

The issue is (or was) that the only 17 inch radial available was the 750 Michelin which has something like a 33.5 inch outside diameter when you really need a 31-31.5 inch tire. Some of the Firestone whitewalls ( bias ply) were only 28 inches which made the wheels look goofy (especially with whitewalls). Correct tires (650 or 750 bias ply) are critical to making the car look right. I have an extreme dislike for whitewalls on any prewar car but especially on a MB of which very few were so equipped originally.

[tilomagnet]

Agreed on the tyres. Having seen the car in person I have to say that it doesnt have the presence or otherwordly beauty of the classic long tail version but it is a beautiful car in its own right. Tyres aside the restoration job is first class, perfect finish without looking overrestored.

[alsancle]

I looked at the prewar shot again and it looked like the spokes were originally painted. I went through my chrome spoke stage but I think if I was doing a car now I would go with whatever it had originally. The painted wheels had chrome weight covers and they made for a good look with black walls.

[Guest eps]

Hi Guys. I'm looking desperately for some drawing and pictures of the soft top frame on the 1936 Merc. 540K Special, and how it folds down behind the seats. I like to build a working soft top on a Pocher 1:8 scale Merc. Special, I made the shape in balsawood to start and I know the window shape is wrong.....Thanks Egon<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[alsancle]

There is a picture of S/N 408370 as found in Russia in the second Melin volume. Looks to be mostly there but in very rough shape.

This link was passed along to me and it has many prewar MB & Horch cars.

Мы в ответе за тех, кому поручили. - Самый большой Музей Техники в Европе! РаÑположен в МоÑкве.

[roadster36]

Hello alsancle

Nice to see you here .

Were is this museum?

Jan

Edited May 23, 2013 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Hi Jan, sorry, no idea on where that museum might be.

[roadster36]

Hi Guys. I'm looking for any information about 170v roadsters

Edited May 24, 2013 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I would say they are certainly more rare than the Cab A. Could you post some pictures of yours? I have never driven a 170 but a friend had one and loved it as as a drivable prewar car.

[roadster36]

I Know, only 271 ever build.

And i estimate only 20/25 pieces survived.

There was an red one from Norm Ilsley in the States but he has it for sale 2 years ago.

And Henry Mango is restoring one at the moment.

On my picteres you can see that it stands on post war chassis.

But i have the correct chassis.

Edited May 25, 2013 by roadster36 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Love it. I assume you are in Europe? Post some pictures of the restoration as you go along.

[alsancle]

The Dragone Brothers are having their auction next weekend and were kind enough to send me a catalog. Here is the 320 long wheelbase with the "N" style body. Only known example and probably a one off. It is not going through the auction but listed as a "private treaty" sale.

[alsancle]

Here are a few more pictures. Complete auction link is here. They are describing it as a "Combination Roadster". I would go with the Combination Coupe designation although I don't know if the mounting anchors are present for the hard top. It has the 4 + 1 transmission and Manny says it goes down the highway great. I love the 320 cars as they are all very attractive and the interiors are top notch. Comparable to any full Classic of the prewar area. In the U.S these cars were not cheap and you could get a V16 Caddy for comparable money. Obviously the only drawback is the flathead 6 engine which keeps these cars downstream from the blown 8 cylinder cars.

If you want to hear it run John Lyons posted this

.

[roadster36]

What a nice barnfind

What means "private treaty" sale?

[alsancle]

A private treaty is fancy talk for "on consignment".