PreWar Mercedes Benz

[Davlet]

That Auto museum in Moscow Russia

I do speak in 7 languages.

Let me know If need any more photos of dif. Auto museum in Russia Thanks

Davlet

[Guest Skip Jordan]

Any knowledge of what type of wood might be used on the dash of this 1933 710 SS?

[Davlet]

Is any one have a link for online Auction. Trying to find out what will be bids for that car

If anyone have any info about result Please

Thanks

The Dragone Brothers are having their auction next weekend and were kind enough to send me a catalog. Here is the 320 long wheelbase with the "N" style body. Only known example and probably a one off. It is not going through the auction but listed as a "private treaty" sale.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]194923[/ATTACH]

[roadster36]

I guess between 350.000-400.000 dollar

[alsancle]

The original asking price was 850k.

[roadster36]

Wow, thats a little bit over the top.

[Davlet]

Hello

is anyone know have any info what the action result ??

The original asking price was 850k.

[alsancle]

I was thinking in the range you came up with so I was a little surprised when Manny told me. I will give him credit, he had a whole justification that seemed plausible. When you have a one-off it only takes one guy.

[540K]

You stated: "So, that seems to answer the question whether pearlescent or metallic paints would be period-correct for 1936 American cars." No that does not answer that question as special paints of this and other nature, including fishscales, would be appropriate only on specific manufacturers, specific bodies, or on specific coach built bodies. That something was available at the time, in no way indicates that is was used on everything. The Last SUpper, for example, was painted in fresco, not chiseled in marble.

The point of my remarks, from which you have quoted only one sentence, was that such paint techniques were available in 1936 to custom coach builders. I said only that it was "period correct," not that it "was used on everything." I did not mean to imply that every 1936 American car had metallic paint. If that's the way it came across to anyone else, I appreciate your clarification.

[540K]

1937 540K Innenlenker 2-door sedan, unrestored or older restoration, sold for $798,350 this morning in England. Not a popular body style but bidders recognized its rarity. Same sale that saw the W196R of Fangio sell for just short of $30 million.

It will be very interesting to see what the 1939 one-off Spezial Roadster sells for next month. It won 2nd in class behind a Nethercutt car last year at Pebble Beach. It last sold for $4.6M two years ago before the latest restoration.

Anyone going to Pebble Beach next month? Would love to meet other 500K/540K fanciers out there.

Edited July 12, 2013 by 540K (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The one off "Formerly known as Stalin" car (I know it was never Stalin's) is unique and attractive but does not seem to be the money generator of the long tail roadsters. It would be interesting to see what the final version of the Special roadster would bring in comparison to this car. Not sure it is a good thing it was just sold a couple of years ago.

[540K]

I agree wholeheartedly re long-tail roadster being the top of the heap in value among the roadsters. I like the one-off coming up for sale better than the "not so special" final version of the Sindelfingen roadsters, though. Maybe it will sell okay since it took at least two people to bid it up to $4.6 2 yrs ago, and it has been restored and class award winner at Pebble Beach since then. Hopefully bidders won't know or remember that it stalled on the way up to the podium and blocked the road on the way down! (Turns out it was merely out of gas.)

The photo below is what I'm shooting for. It's heavily Photoshopped to change the paint color and the chrome wheels to body color, so it's a very rough illustration, but approximate. Oh, and the car in the photo had an exposed spare, so the back end is not quite right for an enclosed spare car.

Edited July 12, 2013 by 540K (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I like the color and painted wheels.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Gents, this recent sale struck me as likely one of the least expensive CCCA eligibile, open prewar MB cars left?

Mercedes-Benz : Other Yes in Mercedes-Benz | eBay Motors

Any thoughs as to whether this was about right, or a "deal"?

[alsancle]

The 230s do not do as well as the 320s and they are not as attractive. I will say that the price was about right. As with most cars, if you wanted one you would be better off buying a restored one because I see an easy 100k in cosmetic work alone.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

A rare bird though, A.J.? Not sure I have ever seen one. I would imagine one market factor on these is that they are as close to the 170 MBs in terms of appearance as the larger chassis cars, but still kind of cool.

540K hopefully you will be able to post some pics on the progress of the coachwork.

[Davlet]

Hello All

Looking for 540K or 500K MB

If any one have any please let me know

thanks

My cell +1 414 six3O 2853

or Email Davlet145(at)gmail.com

[alsancle]

Wow they are moving fast. If you asked me I would have predicted a 10 year project. Your picture is a great shot of the exhust port through the chassis. One of the minor differences between the 500k and the 540k is the size of that hole. The 540k is about 1/2 an inch longer.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

looks great so far!! Thanks for sharing. This may have been covered earlier but any idea what bodystyle was originally on this chassis?

[alsancle]

Craig, I'm just speaking from experience. Ten seems to be the magic number if you are dedicated. Never may happen more than 10 unfortunately.

Your project seems to be rolling along nicely. I think you were lucky to find a perfect chassis. If you had found a complete Cab B there would have been many (including me) that may have frowned at rebodying it. With what you started with you are a hero.

[Guest gregNwt]

1923 Benz GR5 restoration

Hi Pre-War Benz enthusiasts...

We have here a 1923 Benz being restored, and it is now at a mobile and running chassis engine transmission stage..

The next weak link in our chain of rebuilding this relic is the radiator, which we are examining to see the best rebuild path.

Is there anyone out there that has any construction details for these V shape tube and fin cores ? Tube metal thickness ? fin metal thickness ? Source or materials.. I know of Replicore in New Zealand who will do a core and rebuild for us, but the price is a bit beyond our hillbilly budget.

At this stage we are planning to rebuild a new core from scratch and get the tanks swapped over to the new core.

If anyone has ever pulled one of these units apart and could shed light on how the core and tanks are joined and constructed, it may allow us to proceed to build the core with the original still in one piece.

In Australia here we have limited options, and while we can find folks to put the tanks on new cores, not many are willing to build a core.

Having the original radiator intact with a new replacement core beside it would increase our options in getting the rebuilt radiator back into the chassis, so we can drive around the paddock again.

I will post a picture of our first drive in the bare chassis since 1940's for your amusement.

The vehicle is not a concourse edition at this stage, but for the first time in decades it is mobile.

Cheers

Greg

[alsancle]

Hi Greg,

Is it constructed in the same way as the later 540k/500k radiators which were individual tubes soldered together on the outside edges? If so you can create a new one by using the same technique. Painful and long but possible as it has been done for the later cars.

[Guest gregNwt]

Hi there alsancle

Very nice to hear from you, I am a new lurker here, so forgive my lack of depth of knowledge as to the similarity with those more fancy models!..

But yes it appears to be vertical tubes (49) that seem to be folded over and seam soldered on the back edge then inserted into slots on the bottom of the top tank and top to the bottom tank, with triangular foil (approx 10mm folds) fins. The tubes are around 70mm deep and perhaps a 1 or 2mm inner tube space and about 600mm tall.

I have read on the Replicore site they use 0.15mm wall thickness tubes and 0.11 0.15 for the fins

We have the basic practical experience in silver soldering and 50/50 soldering techniques, and is why we are contempating the roll your own solution..

And why we seek more knowledge from the ethernet. and those with pre war merc hands on practical experience.

Would like to be able to create a new core before dismantling the whole radiator if possible.

Thanks for the interest.

Greg

Hi Greg,

Is it constructed in the same way as the later 540k/500k radiators which were individual tubes soldered together on the outside edges? If so you can create a new one by using the same technique. Painful and long but possible as it has been done for the later cars.

[540K]

I think you were lucky to find a perfect chassis. If you had found a complete Cab B there would have been many (including me) that may have frowned at rebodying it. With what you started with you are a hero.

I'm no hero, but I was extremely pleased to find this chassis and body so that I would not have that moral dilemma. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I looked seriously at the Innenlenker that sold last week; I hope that one doesn't get rebodied. At this point it's probably more rare than the roadsters. I would have loved to have it, but I can't afford a collection of more than one, and I'm not sure I should be trying to afford that one!

[alsancle]

I like it and the body style is rare as many are gone of the original 28. The 800k selling price means someone else must agree with me - quite a bit.

Built to commission number '247491', the 540K offered here was delivered in July 1937 to Messrs Souheur & Chappuis, a Mercedes-Benz dealership in Brussels, for a Baron de Montpellier. According to the factory records the official designation of the body was two-door sedan, although it resembles a coupé in some ways. Irrespective of the designation this was one of the rarer body styles on the 540K chassis. According to the official body production figures, only 28 were built (presumably by Mercedes-Benz's in-house coachbuilder, Sindelfingen). Bonhams is grateful to Mercedes-Benz for providing the foregoing information from the factory records, which sadly contain no documentation concerning what happened to the car after delivery. At time of cataloguing no further information was to hand concerning its current mechanical condition or subsequent history.

Apparently an older restoration, '169341' is finished in dark midnight blue with dark sandy beige cloth interior trim. The dashboard boasts a full complement of instruments while other noteworthy features include twin side-mounted spare wheels, Bosch headlamps, centre spotlight, air horns and side exit exhausts. The supercharger is in place beneath the bonnet. Offering four-seater accommodation allied to breathtaking performance, this rare and stylish 540K coupé represents the very best that money could buy in the late 1930s and is a fine example of this classic German model.

[Guest RonB]

Gregnwt, Unless you want to take out a mortgage and buy a kiwi radiator,I would suggest you get intouch with the archives at Daimler AG museum and ask for a copy of the radiators blueprints. Chances are very likely that they still exist for your car . Using them,and you will probalby need to,be able to make new top and bottom plates and feed new pipes into them . That would be simpler and easier than trying to solder ancient plates to new tubes. I suspect the solder used might have been 70-30 too . You need a slow solder when dealing with so many tubes so close together.

One of my Collegues spent weeks repairing a similar type of radiator from a 1913 Vulcan which has German silver top and bottom tanks .What a job!. Fix one leak and another appears elsewhere.

[Guest gregNwt]

Gregnwt, Unless you want to take out a mortgage and buy a kiwi radiator,I would suggest you get intouch with the archives at Daimler AG museum and ask for a copy of the radiators blueprints. Chances are very likely that they still exist for your car . Using them,and you will probalby need to,be able to make new top and bottom plates and feed new pipes into them . That would be simpler and easier than trying to solder ancient plates to new tubes. I suspect the solder used might have been 70-30 too . You need a slow solder when dealing with so many tubes so close together.

One of my Collegues spent weeks repairing a similar type of radiator from a 1913 Vulcan which has German silver top and bottom tanks .What a job!. Fix one leak and another appears elsewhere.

Hi RonB

Thanks for that advice,

I will see if I can find the contact details for the archives and give the possibility that plans may be in existence!

The ideas we are having (as they are cheap!) involve new metal in all the core tubes fins and upper and lower tank pans

I have access to basic sheetmetal tools like folding brakes, punch press to slot the tank plates etc and like the idea of spending a few weeks fabricating..

Spending money last such a short time

So its constructional hints Im most keen on.

Would propose to use a harder silver solder or braze on the core.. and lower hardness/melting points for the tanks and fittings

If fabrication was limited to a few months it would be time well spent, as the vehicle has been out of service for some decades now.

As for the mortgage for a Replicore, it was cheap compared to a reply Ive had for a pebble beach quality rebuild in the States.

Thanks for the hints

Greg

[Guest RonB]

I was told this evening that the Daimler Museum has a car like yours in their collection. here is a link tro the Museum In Germany . You have a special car in terms of it's being in Australia . These archives often have the name of the original importers too. Good luck!!

Mercedes-Benz Classic Home - Classic Center Germany - Contact

I think silver solder will be too hard for the joints in a radiator. regular solder will handle the vibration and heat /cool cycles a lot better. i was working on A dodge this evening with a new Honey comb radiator which cost $5000 ....I'm in Brisbane,where are you? :-)

[Guest gregNwt]

Hi RonB

Yes I think there is one in the Benz collection, my brother visited a few years ago .. I have sent a request in via the contact form..

The vehicle was found in Oberon in the late 1960's by my uncle Graham Bliim (dec.), at a sawmill as a power source or yard truck that had been overgrown and neglected. However all or most of the mechanical were there, and so the restoration of motor, transmission, chassis and layout of trendy boat-tail bodywork.

Just recently (June) we had it to the point of a fuel tank, and starter motor making the engine fire.. After a quick service of the old zentith updraught carb, the fireing turn into a running motor, so we took Mum for a drive around the paddock. The radiator was the weak link as it leaks badly, but fueled our enthusiasm to get the project more complete.

The car is at Mums farm near Gosford, Im close to Lismore where we have the radiator, as we were going to visit Greg Stevens at Honeycomb Radiators (ftrs.com.au),but after a conversation he thought we may be best served by Replicore (NZ) as tubular V shapes were not his specialty.

I only found this forum recently, and will post a couple of pics when I can find the collection...

Regarding the harder and softer solder and or braze silver solder I would like to hear of any advice or opinions on the subject .

As you can imagine we are not intending the car as a daily drive.

I note that there is a modern trend in brazed copper/brass radiators with all sorts of advances ...

Copper.org: Applications: Automotive - Brazed Copper/Brass Radiators Design Innovations

Cheers

I was told this evening that the Daimler Museum has a car like yours in their collection. here is a link tro the Museum In Germany . You have a special car in terms of it's being in Australia . These archives often have the name of the original importers too. Good luck!!

Mercedes-Benz Classic Home - Classic Center Germany - Contact

I think silver solder will be too hard for the joints in a radiator. regular solder will handle the vibration and heat /cool cycles a lot better. i was working on A dodge this evening with a new Honey comb radiator which cost $5000 ....I'm in Brisbane,where are you? :-)

[Guest RonB]

I am seriously jealous!! ha ha. This weekend is the Dodge brothers 'Do" at lismore,keep an eye out for my work Collegue Wolf Grodd and car owner Jim Heywood in a 1930 Dodge 8 roadster(sold new in Muwillimbah) .We have been restoring the car for Jim since he got crook and this is it's big maiden voyage. They just drove past me on their way out so hopefully all will be OK. Anyway,back to the topic.. Wolf is a Mad mercedes Nut and knows a lot of the people at the Daimler Classic Center personally. if you do see them tell them Ron Said to say hi and explain what you are restoring...

[Guest RonB]

Over the next few years, new copper-brass car and truck radiators that could last ten years will debut in the automotive industry. They are fully competitive with today's aluminum counterparts.

well now,I work on a lot of pre1980 mercedes and most have radiator cores that are 50 years old and still in very good condition. Most car parts are really designed to fit a price but in the case of the early Benz,price was never a concern,it was quality that mattered. Price only became an issue when the Daimler Chrysler debacle occured and we all know now what that caused.

Solder is basically an alloy of lead and tin,the tin adds strength,the lead holds it together. 50/50 as was used by the plumbers in the old days ( Plumb=latin for lead) was tricky to wipe on to pipe joins but was soft melted quickly. By adding more tin,as in 70-30 you get a slower melt rate and a slightly higher temp at which you work at. The tin adds more stiffness to the final solder job.

This slower melt rate makes it ideal for body work. Try working on a vertical surface with 50/50 and it will run off the job as quick as anything.In your case,you can use a thinner application to keep the amount of lead down on the joins. Radiators that were factory made with solder were dipped on the tube ends into a bath of molten solder,something I doubt very much you will want to try and replicate ha ha . This soldered all the ends in one hit .

Silver solder is great where highstrength joins are required,but it's not malleable enough in the context of copper tubes subjected to vibration and the radiator will be moving quite a bit,not obviously so, but the small amounts which will work harden the copper alongside the silver soldered joints. Lead/tin solder is malleable and withstands many thousands of miles of use on cars.

You will need to make up a jig or frame to assemble the radiator ,something you can rotate and clamp everything to gether while you solder the tubes to the tanks etc. As for making the fins, i would use one of thosec air operated hole punches that trade tools direct sells. Normally used for making holes in panel steel for plug welding they are great for making lots of holes in a job like this.

One of my mates up here assembled his 1913 Benz from bascially a chassis and some running gear that came with a 1928 SSK chassis from a farm in Western NSW. .The SS is in Germany Now i think after it was rebuilt 20 plus years ago by Wolf.

[Guest gregNwt]

Hi Ron

Do you have the Dodge events details ?

I haven't seen any advertising to see where the venue might be.

It might be a good distraction this weekend and chance to chat to others with a similar interest.

I suspect other family members may have had communication with the Daimler Classic over the past 10 years on and off, for other details, will have to get reminded on how fruitful those explorations were...

Wolf sounds like an interesting person to have a chat with, not many others here have that rebuild experience.

Ah and thanks for the dissertation on the lead/tin solder properties..

After a month or so of absorbing information, we might strike a blow.

Cheers

Greg

[540K]

This old brass gas cap has a sticker on the inside on which someone wrote "Benz 1914." The threads are approximately 3 7/16" in diameter. This came from an auction in which there was a 1914 Benz for sale, but the buyer of that car said his car has a more elaborate gas cap. I think this might have been the original gas cap. It was taped on the filler pipe of my car, but it was too big. I was hoping the guy with the 1914 Benz got my gas cap, but he said no. Can anyone confirm that this style cap was on Benz cars of that era? I need to put it up for sale, but want to know what it is first.

Thanks

Edited July 20, 2013 by 540K (see edit history)

[Guest RonB]

Hi Ron

Do you have the Dodge events details ?

I haven't seen any advertising to see where the venue might be.

It might be a good distraction this weekend and chance to chat to others with a similar interest.

I suspect other family members may have had communication with the Daimler Classic over the past 10 years on and off, for other details, will have to get reminded on how fruitful those explorations were...

Wolf sounds like an interesting person to have a chat with, not many others here have that rebuild experience.

Ah and thanks for the dissertation on the lead/tin solder properties..

After a month or so of absorbing information, we might strike a blow.

Cheers

Greg

here you go,It's pretty close to Byron as it happens

http://www.dodgebrosclub-australasia.asn.au/docs/nsw%20tweeny%20tour%202013.pdf

[540K]

Largest group of prewar supercharged Mercedes since Monterey in 2011 coming up at RM London in September. Cab A, B and C, plus rare 380K. 290 Sp Rdstr for good measure, and a 300SLS. And of course the Sp Rdstr and 680K next month in Monterey. Get your checkbooks ready!

Edited July 26, 2013 by 540K (see edit history)

[alsancle]

7 or 8 years ago that Cab C sold privately for a very reasonable price. There were a few issues with it but a nice not too old restoration. It will be interesting to see how it does now.

[alsancle]

The Cab B is running the Michelin 750 Radials which are too big and do not look right.

[540K]

The Cab B is running the Michelin 750 Radials which are too big and do not look right.

Yes, I noticed that. The only place I have been able to find the correct 650 x 17s is Longstone Tyres in UK though.

[alsancle]

A 1939 170 Roadster restored by my friend Henry Magno.

[roadster36]

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