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nickdaytona

Buying a single 4-barrel setup

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I'm seriously looking at converting my dual 4 barrel system to a single 4 barrel . I have been trolling around and have seen a single intake manifold on Ebay for awhile at $100 (OK, $99) . I e-mailed Tim and told him what I was looking for a complete setup (minus carb, which i can get reman-ed) .he said he could get me the setup minus carb ( as asked) for $200. Sounds good.

My question is this; what specific brackets and linkages will I need included for a single setup? I don't something that's cobbled together .

Thanks !

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Nick,

From the way I read it, Tim is getting you a set up, not just a manifold. I'd bet that Tim is probably getting you everything you need.

I don't know why you're changing from the dual quad (2 @ 625 cfm) set up. Have you ever considered trying to find a Quadrajet manifold and carb (750 cfm) from a '66 Riviera? The small primaries give you some good gas mileage, and the big ol' secondaries give you a lot of fuel on demand.

A friend of mine has owned more than a few '66 Rivieras. He's done some racing with them and states that the same car will run quicker in the 1/4 mile w/ a quadrajet, but the 2x4 setup is going faster through the traps (it's gaining but it's still behind.) He says the 2x4 set ups really start coming on well past a 1/4 mile. The 2x4's have a better top end, but they're not as quick.

Unless you want something that's OE "stock" you might consider it.

Ed

PS - I was just looking at the Buick buy/sell forum and ol' 4toe just listed a manifold and carb.

Edited by RivNut
Add PS (see edit history)

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I'm not concerned with the performance end of things so much as the economics . My '65 is a matching #'s 401 , which I'm setting up as a cruiser, so I really don't need the Dual Quad setup (Not sure why it was put on in the first place ).

the reason I'm looking to use something like an AFB comp carb over an original is that I had so much trouble with carbs on my '70 Chevelle which I ended up buying a new one for after 2 "rebuilds".But after researching on this and other forums it seems that choices are limited for a plug and play carb. having said that, is a Quadrajet off a '66 plug and play ?

At the end of the day ( or build ! ) its better for me to sell the dual quad

and install the single setup so I can fund other upgrades ( paint, wheels).

Thanks for any help on "de-fuzzifying the muddification"

dualquad.jpg

auburn2010061.jpg

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I have several 4bbl options including the quadrajet unit that Ed has referred to. I would also be interested in you 2x4 setup as well.

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Marty,

How's the production of the aluminum single four barrel manifold progressing? Have you thought about making it for a later series quadrajet?

Ed

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Since your car is a matching numbers car; why destroy the value by getting rid of the dual quad?

Suggestion: remove the two 625's, replace them with two 400's (Carter AFB 9400s or 9410s, mix or match), and change the linkage from progressive to solid. Put the two original carbs on the shelf, and you will have them for the the future.

The smaller venturii in the 400's increase air velocity for both better low end performance, and better fuel economy. However, the 625's will outperform them in power at WOT.

Jon.

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Since your car is a matching numbers car; why destroy the value by getting rid of the dual quad?

Suggestion: remove the two 625's, replace them with two 400's (Carter AFB 9400s or 9410s, mix or match), and change the linkage from progressive to solid. Put the two original carbs on the shelf, and you will have them for the the future.

The smaller venturii in the 400's increase air velocity for both better low end performance, and better fuel economy. However, the 625's will outperform them in power at WOT.

Jon.

It's a good suggestion , John , but do you really think that the Dual Quad is factory on my 401? ( I don't) . Would be kind of neat if it was but at the end of the day the dual setup is worth much more to someone who needs it for their true GS 425 than I do for my 'round-towner. I'll be happy with a 625 cfm single setup and $ for wheels and tires and paint.

Question, though- '65 Riv Single 4 barrel- carter or Rochester? Which is correct and which is better? Please edjumicate me, your majesty :-)

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Nick - I thought I read in your first post that the car was numbers-matching; thus I accepted this.

As to the old question..... which is better, Rochester or Carter?

50 years ago, Rochester got a bad "rep" as Rochester catered to O.E. installations only. On the other hand, Carter had a "Competition Department" an enthusiast could call for both advice and special parts. Thus parts pickers at the junkyards/swap meets would go for the Carters and leave the Rochesters.

Even today, the number of carburetor specialists that can successfully modify a Rochester carburetor (yes Virginia, it CAN be done) are few when compared to those who think they can modify a Carter (or one of the clones).

However, enough history. Assuming your engine is basically stock:

If a competent carburetor person were to build both carburetors, install one and seal the hood, allow you to drive it 1000 miles, remove it, install the other and seal the hood, and allow you to drive another 1000 miles; you wouldn't be able to tell if he really changed the carb or not; not would you know which one he installed first.

The only exception to the above statement is if you live in a very warm climate; in which case the Carter, being aluminum, is more susceptible to fuel evaporation, and might be harder to start the first time each day.

If you are leaning toward a change, I would suggest at least thinking about a spread-bore (either a Q-Jet or a Carter TQ) with the small primaries and huge secondaries.

But my shop truck (Ford) with a 390/450 horsepower and two 625 Carter AFB carbs gets 18 MPG on E-10, and when I can find genuine gasoline, more than 22 MPG at 70 MPH. I run the dual quads with solid linkage, no progressive for me. You might consider a really good tuneup. You might be surprised what the dual quads would do. In any event, do the math. Figure all of the costs, the estimated improved ? mileage, and the payback period.

Jon.

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Thanks for the concise response, Jon ! I still don't know what was original on the Riv and would love to know if it was possible to order the dual quad with the base 401 model. When I got the car I found that the engine and Vin were matching then assumed that it was a non-GS 425 because of it. It was only when I found that it was an LT block that someone had installed the dual quad system on it although it looks factory ( I am assuming it's not original).

I'm still trying to completely understand what carb & parts I need to do an easy swap and how much my system is worth before I commit to any offers.

Any advice appreciated !

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Nick,

The 2x4 was available as a dealer add on but did not come from the factory equipped as such. This was a 425 option only. The block would have then been an LX designation.

I will value your induction at somewhere from 1000.00 to 1500.00 depending on condition and providing the carburetors have the correct numbers.

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Nick,

The 2x4 was available as a dealer add on but did not come from the factory equipped as such. This was a 425 option only. The block would have then been an LX designation.

I will value your induction at somewhere from 1000.00 to 1500.00 depending on condition and providing the carburetors have the correct numbers.

Thats what I understood , Marty, the dual came in the trunk to the dealership and was installed there, 425 LX only. How it ended up on my #'s matching 401 LT is a mystery , but damn, it looks like it's original, ya know?

Weird..

As to the value, i think you're correct but with the air filter assembly ( even painted, it might be worth more than $1500. I'm going to try to pull the #'s off the carbs tomorrow ( cold in my other garage)

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Nick,

I'm betting that a previous owner added the dual quad set up. As Marty says, a 401 would have never come from the factory with that set up. And it would have been a heck of a lot more expensive to buy it as a dealer installed option than purchasing the Super Wildcat option in the first place. You could also check the part number on the distributor to see if it's part of the OE dual quad setup. Check the casting number to make sure the intake is from a '65 as well as the carb numbers. See if the casting date is close to the production date on the Fisher Body tag. If you're timing your ignition based on '65 401 specs, you should probably compare them to the specs for a dual quad set up: 2.5* for the '65 401 compared to 12* for the dual quad setup, the Super Wildcat distributor had different springs and weights than the single four barrel 401/425.

Also that hinky throttle return spring is definitely not OE nor is the flexible fuel line running to the rear carb. A complete factory setup would have had a steel line running between the carbs. :eek:

In addition, the kickdown linkage appears to be from a '66.

Take a look at Jon's company's website and read what he says about the Carter Thermoquad. Chrysler used them on their high performance 440's. He's also written a good article on why (as he suggests) you should run solid linkage on the 2x4 setup.

If you're interested in a Q-jet manifold for your 401, I have one I'd like to sell. I could also include a '66 Q-jet. You've already got the kick down linkage to work with that carb. Good economy and performance when you want it. :)

Ed

Edited by RivNut
Spelling (see edit history)

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I'm seriously looking at converting my dual 4 barrel system to a single 4 barrel . I have been trolling around and have seen a single intake manifold on Ebay for awhile at $100 (OK, $99) . I e-mailed Tim and told him what I was looking for a complete setup (minus carb, which i can get reman-ed) .he said he could get me the setup minus carb ( as asked) for $200. Sounds good.

My question is this; what specific brackets and linkages will I need included for a single setup? I don't something that's cobbled together .

Thanks !

Nick, are you still interested in a single carter setup?

Maybe we can figure out a trade. I can put together a complete changover for you. from throttle linkage to switch pitch bracket, carb oto air cleaner.

Cheers,

Ted

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Nick,

I doubt if you'll ever know what was original on your engine. The Rochester and the AFB were both OE. Why some came with one brand and others with the other brand is a mystery and will probably remain so.

As John said, you can't really tell the difference in performance. I originally had a Rochester on my '63. The PO used that car to tow his Airstream trailer so it must have provided the power he needed. I switched to a correct numbers Carter because the Rochester had started leaking and needed a rebuild. I'd rebuilt Carters before and this seemed like the simpler solution.

One thing I read about Carters is the they don't have any gaskets below the float level and they don't leak. On the other hand, the aluminum body is prone to damage by the exhaust gases in the crossover tube built into the manifold. The Carter requires a stainless plate that sits between the gasket and the carb.

If I were you, I'd be concerned with two things:

1) Finding a correct numbered carb for the year car you have and getting all the necessary brackets that go with it, and:

2) staying away from the aftermarket carbs. They may run fine but you'll have to come up with a very un-OE set of brackets and linkages to get the kick down and switch pitch converter to work correctly, and the air horn on the after market carbs is larger than the hole in the correct OE air cleaner. They make an adapter for putting later air cleaners on early carbs, but they don't make an adapter for putting an early air cleaner on a later carb. (No, you can't just turn it over.)

Look in the classified section of the Riview and call some of the guys parting out complete cars and see what they have available.

Ed

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thank you for de-fuzzifying the muddification, Ed ! I am leaning towards a Rochester after digesting all the info ( with ENO to help it stay down) .

Pulling an airstream with a Riv ! What a great combo !!

Now to get back to some people on the dual .

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Yeah, you should have seen the full hitch receiver that was welded to the frame. I'm betting that Midas lost a bunch of money putting a new muffler on that one just before I bought the car. To ease the wear on the brakes, the Riv was equipped with electric trailer brakes. To ease the lug on the engine (burned valves reworked about 10,000 miles before I bought it) the PO replaced the stock rear end gear with a 3.91 gear set. Needless to say it was quick even with a Dynaflow. The PO also had a complete five gauge set - amps, temp, oil pressure, tach, and vacuum - set in the ash tray opening. The gauges had there own lights that were controlled by a separate rocker switch on the gauge panel. It was a pretty neat setup. Black car with white leather and when took delivery, it had white Buick floor mats and handy mats. Hardest things in the world to keep clean.

Ed

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I know it's been a while, but what did you end up doing on this, Nick? Did you sell your 2x4?

-BEPNewt

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Hey Brian, Nick here. No, I didn't sell the dual quad setup yet because i didn't have a spare minute this year to get to it. Bought another house,renovated it,started on contract with my former employer then went to Auburn in September , had a few beers , bought a Camino SS ,had a few more beers , then built a third garage to house the extra cars, which are all over the place .

My point after all this is that I have decided to definitely pull the duals and sell them over the holidays with the air cleaner and replace it with a single setup. I already have the 3 inch Jamco drop kit ready to install so this winter is the winter for getting what needs done, well, DONE !

I'm watching the current set on Ebay to see what the market will bear. As stated before, I'm looking at a complete ready-to-go proper single 4 barrel carter setup plus cash for my wheels and tires.

Thanks for posting, I checked it out of the blue !

Edited by nickdaytona (see edit history)

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When you asked what all you would need, I'm betting that Tim has everything. I'm going to say that besides the 'correct' carb and manifold you'll need fuel inlet line, throttle linkage, dash pot, linkage and switch for the kick down/variable pitch, coil bracket, power brake hose, rear mounting bracket for the a/c compressor, air cleaner, hose and tubing for the vacuum modulator, hot air choke tube w/ sleeve, and anything else anyone can think of off hand. Is the distributor you have in your car the one that came with the dual carb setup or the one that originally came with the car - the dual carb distributor is timed at 12* and the OE distributor is timed at 2-1/2*.

Ed

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I have a 3921 carb, and an OEM single carb intake manifold from my 65 parts car. They'll need to be cleaned and rebuilt, however.

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