An Observation by Jay Leno

[Guest]

Touche' Ron, my frustration with the "system" sometimes gets the better of me. <P>It's artisans like you from a bygone era with a lifetime of expierience to share that I feel are being slighted. I know I've learned from some of the best. Their contribution has been forgotten and it makes me sad. All you have to do is look around a high school parking lot today and see cookie cutter Hondas with big pipes and zero imagination to see the problem. <P>These kids are the ones losing out, they might never know the joy of doing something unique with their own hands and being able to say "I did it myself". If they can't buy it out of the J C Whitney catalogue they couldn't be bothered.<P>Who can blame them, the prospects for making a good living today working with you hands are pretty limited. I like to say I've been lucky with my career, but the truth is it was mostly the result of hard work and watching my elders for the tricks of the trade. <P>Perhaps getting paid by the hour is the problem, many of my peers grew up when having a job was somthing to be proud of. Now-a-days the kids think they should get paid just for showing up, I've had more than a few apprentices with just such an attitude. I think unionization has had something to do with it even though I've been a union member for a lot of my career.<P>Peter hit the nail on the head when he described the lack of knowledge among product designers especially in the foundry business, yet open any handbook of engineering and the recommended specs and design criteria are right there staring you in the face. <P>Perhaps they have forgotten how to read, or one of the required texts in their courses should have included the Machinists handbook or Marks Standard Engineering reference.<P>I'm reminded of an incident where an Engineer came into our jobber shop with a need for some work done on a punching station in their rail straightening line.<P>I went to the steel yard with him and noted the situation. Seems the rail would come down the roller line and an operator would flip the rail to orient it properly before entering the punching station. Once in the station a hydraulic stop would position the rail and a 3/4" navy punch would punch through the 1/2" rail twice. The problem was the punch would retract and the rail would go with it. Causing excessive wear on the punch.<P>The problem was simple, there was no stripper for the punch to keep the rail in position. I drew up a brief sketch describing how a simple die works and how to adapt it to his situation, he said he would contact me with some drawings later.<P>Sure enough next week in he came with his drawings, needless to say he didn't quite grasp the concept. After "touching up" the drawings he said he would come back with a revision for me later.<P>Another week goes by and there he was again, this time his drawings were virtually carbon copies of what I had scribled except there were no dimensions and his stripper rollers rode on square posts. <P>I explained that it would be much simpler to make round posts with a key to prevent rotation. He nodded and asked me to take over the job because he was to busy and asked if I could give him drawings of what ever I made.<P>So I rebuilt the entire punching station and even dowelled the punch holders so any idiot could change the punch in a short period of time. The first run was flawless and they never had a problem again with this station.<P>I later heard that during one of the staff meetings he stood up in front of the entire line crew and presented my drawings to the boss and described how he single handedly fixed the punch problem. I know this because my best friend was the operator of the straightener.<P>Cést la vie', my job was done and I got my pay. I heard he now is one of the head engineers at this firm. <P>Seems he got a promotion after redesigning the roller line with bottling equipment rollers, saved the company thousands of dollars. Now my friend tells me they have at least 3 breakdowns a shift because the rollers are not up to the punishment of heavy steel rail traversing the rollers constantly. He blames the breakdowns on the "ignorant" operators who obviously just want a shutdown so they don't have to work.<P>The rollers he had removed were built in the fifties and were greasable and rebuildable, no doubt made by some real engineer that understood the concept. The greasers job was also eliminated for a further cost savings.<P>How much longer can America sustain this kind of incompetance, no doubt the accountants thought he was a genius. Perhaps having the japanese take over would be a good thing, I hear they know how to respect the past and learn from their mistakes.<P>This is but one example of what I have seen over the years. I learned to put my name on anything I produce and fax everything so there is a record of the transaction.<P>Geez! I've written another novel. You guys are probably tired of hearing me rant, sorry sometimes I get carried away.

[ronbarn]

Granted, this thread has strayed away from antique vehicles but is certainly appropriate indirectly. Chuck da Machinist has some very interesting points and I think most of us are artisans in heart if not by experience or capability.<P>I recommend that each of you that find this interesting should read Nevil Schute's "Trustee from the Toolroom". It's no longer in print but can usually be found in the library or used book stores.

[Guest]

this post has certainly generated some fine messages. I am an engineer (not mechanical) and also volunteer on the board of a university. Part of the newest accreditation (ABET) involves schools getting input from their "customers" which means students, employers, and grad schools. I have seen the required courses change based on what skills were and were not valuable. There have been some clearly heartfelt comments - contact a local school about this hands-on issue. The department I work with hired a recently retired gentleman to teach the students about machinery in their chemical engineering lab - what it looks like inside, how to troubleshoot and fix it.

[Guest]

be careful about the "unreality" of a .010 tolerance. I do not challenge your contention that this is unrealistic for this process. However, this is completely doable with injection molding. This can be the kind of sea change that signals the decline of a mature technology. To circle back to old cars - The 1949 GM overhead valve V8 into did not produce more powerful engines, initially. Look at the specs on a 1949 Packard 356. It was the greater development potential vs. the mature straight 8 design that was important.

[Guest]

Since I started this thread, I guess I can comment on the direction it has taken.<P><B>IT'S GREAT!</B> Chuck has given us insight and information that I imagine few of us would have ever have gained without his input.<P>This is exactly the type of input I had hoped for, and I never expected it to be limited exclusively to automotive discussion. <P>Everything we have read here contains some information useful within our hobby. Any new knowledge brought forth is valuable to someone in some way.<P>It brought Chuck to our happy little group, and I for one have thoroughly enjoyed his input.<P>Peter Heizmann has been around the DF for some time, but I learn more about casting every time he posts on the subject.<P>Let's keep this thing going. Maybe Jay Leno inspired a two page thread. ~ hvs<p>[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Peter J.Heizmann]

split55555:<P>I am not going to be cautious about anything I posted. It is common knowledge that die castings, investment castings, lost wax, etc., can hold +/- .010 and even lower.<P>I was discussing "green sand molding". Industry standards (not to mention reality) is we can hold +/- .030 on the average section. A competitor in PA once touted he could hold +/- .015 in sand molding and wound up losing the customer.<P>Regards, Peter J. <p>[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ]

[Guest]

The amount of knowledge that the members of this group obviously have is amazing. I am so thankful for finding this forum and for you all allowing me to post. I now spend more time at this site than any other mainly because the subject of old cars is very dear to my heart.<P>Although my knowledge of cars previous to 1960 is extremely limited, I enjoy reading about the knowledge and expieriences that the readership of this forum have had over the years.<P>I sometimes wish I was born 20 years earlier, I think I have more in common with an earlier era than with today's consumerism driven society. <P>My expierience with old cars started with my Dad giving me an old 71 ford Meteor 2dr, the car was parked at our cottage and being all of 12 years old I loved that old boat.<P>During the summer I would spend my entire two month holidays there and would play inside it and imagine I was Mario Andretti or Richard Petty, my favourite race car drivers at the time.<P>Since Dad would commute out on weekends I didn't have a lot to do during the week. I one day decided to remove the entire interior to clean up this old car so I could pretend it was a new car. I soon had the entire interior out and spread out on our gravel driveway, my Mother thought I was nuts. <P>I could not figure out how the rear seats came out, but Dad had bought a complete set of manuals for the car and I learned the joy of reading technical manuals that summer. I soon had the interior spotless and reassembled, every nook and cranny was detailed. Dad was very impressed and I now had a new job, cleaning the family car.<P>During the next school year I met a new friend, his Dad was a hot rodder and a machinist and he had an extensive collection of old Hot Rod magazines. I devoured every magazine he brought to school, usually during a class. <P>We talked about what kind of car we would build when we finally got drivers licenses and the relative merits of the different makes and models. <P>One day after school sitting in his driveway was a 1951 ford truck, his Dad was going to "rod" it. It looked like someone elses project and he was going to finish it. I watched with facination as the truck went through various stages of completion and examined every detail of his craftsmanship.<P>Once the paint had been applied and the wood bed done, he purchased some American Racing mags suitably wide enough to fill the fenders. His son and I sat in the garage for hours and imagined what the truck would look like with rubber on those mags.<P>The next week he had purchased new rubber and the wheels sat in the garage with their fresh rubber installed. I was horrified when I saw the wheels, the rear tires were way to narrow for the 10" rims they were installed on. I thought he had made a very big mistake with his choice, tires should fit the rims I thought.<P>The next week the tires were installed and the truck sat in his driveway ready to cruise. Boy was I wrong, the tires bulged in just the right way that it matched the contour of the rear fenders. The truck was a work of art.<P>I learned a lot about form and function that year and how lines should match. Funny how the same thing applies to girls. <P>The next summer I decided that I should pull the motor out of that old Meteor, the 351 Windsor in the car was not a popular motor at the time. But I thought that I could at least clean it up and paint the engine and detail the engine compartment.<P>Pulling the motor was going to be a problem, no lift was available. I figured I could cut down some big trees and stand them up and make a sort of tripod high enough to get the engine clear of the car. <P>It wasn't easy but I soon had three tall enough logs lashed together standing over the engine compartment, a come-along hanging from it's peak. Once I had the engine free of the tranny I hoisted it free of it's compartment. My friends were busy playing cars in the sand and here I was working on the real thing. As they say I was King of my domain, at 13 years old. Only problem was the engine wasn't high enough to clear the grille DOH!<P>Once I figured out I could get an inch or two from letting out some air in the tires I was home free. I didn't expect the car to rise so high on it's springs without the engines weight on it, lesson #1.<P>I built a kind of engine stand out of 2x6 lumber and removed the oil pan so the engine could sit in my makeshift crate. I put my old toboggan under the stand and lowered the engine onto it's cradle. I spent the next 3 days dragging the entire assembly through the gravel and into the garage inch by inch, my Mother really thought I was nuts and worried about my mental health.<P>The satisfaction I had from accomplishing this job was immeasurable and I was thoroughly hooked on cars. I spent the rest of the summer taking parts off the engine and cleaning them up. The next issue of Hot Rod had an article on head porting, yep you guessed it that was my next project.<P>I found an old 12 volt chainsaw sharpener in the garage and with the money I earned cleaning Dad's car I bought one carbide cutter to start my new project. Once I figured out how to get the valve springs off I began porting one chamber, it took me a whole week to finish that chamber. I then realized my cutter was worn out and I had 7 more to do and it was important they were all identical.<P>Anyway the entire summer was spent on the picnic table in the hot sun grinding cast iron with a 12 volt charger attached to my little "die grinder". Cast iron was embedded in every pore of my body and I learned to finish what I started. I loved every minute of it.<P>That engine went into my first car (68 Galaxy 2 dr fast back) and the heads I later found out were the early 69 windsor heads (rare today). That car turned mid 15's in the quarter and was the fastest car at my high school until my best friend bought an original 383 Dodge Dart with a 440 under the hood. <P>Thus began my love of cars and mechanics that continues to this day, my four year old son has his own tool box and I let him "repair" whatever he wants. He'll be showing the old man some day.

[Guest]

I've been reading this thread on and off, at times rolling my eyes in amazement that this is a revelation to some and a lament to others. Please don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to be critical here. Just today I realized what it was that was bothering me about it. Earlier, someone suggested that maybe we should stop complaining and just learn how to do things carefully and correctly ourselves. That wasn't met with much applause, but it deserves much more consideration than it got in print. I won't try to remake points that have already been made here, but I want to suggest a book to you that I read about 20 years ago that literally changed my life, that deals entirely with this subject. (I can see those eyes rolling now!) The book is <B>Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance</B>, by Robert Persig. It should be required reading in every high school in this country. Give it a try. If nothing else, it will make you think twice about who works on your car. As a matter of fact, you probably won't look at your doctor, lawyer, plumber, or the bag boy at the grocery store the same way either!

[Guest]

Read the book Bob, although I didn't find it a revelation it was good none the less.<P>Your observation of people in other professions and how they look at their work is quite appropriate.<P>In my job I deal with doctors, surgeons, nurses and other highly paid medical practitioners on a daily basis.<P>Although they are quite knowlegable of their work, most don't even know which way to turn a screwdriver or what a robertson bit looks like.<P>This is quite understandable because to become a doctor in our respective countries takes unusual dedication and a very deep pocketbook, student loans will cover your school costs (barely) and then you have to find a way to pay the bills and feed yourself and then the rent etc. etc. you get the idea.<P>What does this all mean? It means that only those that are wealthy, still living at home with wealthy parents or inherited a substancial amount of money is allowing you to pursue the very noble profession of medical academia.<P>Without sounding crass, this means that the people that have never had to do for themselves in life are now the ones you trust most with yours.<P><BR>Don't get me wrong there are some very notable exceptions, but they are the exceptions not the rule.<P>Most doctors I have talked to on an informal basis will discuss their latest investments or how famous they will get with their next discovery, not how they eased the suffering of their last patient by holding their hand as they passed into the great beyond. This is a business and they are there to make money first.<P>It's no secret that surgical instruments are designed so that a 2 year old could operate the device, anything more complicated and the device will not gain acceptance in the marketplace. <P>I have had doctors throw very expensive devices into the trash because it was in the wrong place on his tray, ask a nurse how many temper tantrums she has witnessed in the OR when things aren't going just right. Spoiled brat is the only way I can decribe this behavior.<P>The problem is that the very people with the necessary skills and mature temperments don't have the money to enter this profession, probably wouldn't be accepted even if they did.<P>As usual off on a tangent I go, how does this relate to our discussion.<P>1) Choose your doctor like you would choose a good mechanic, if you don't like what you hear. Find another one-they aren't God you know. As much as they would like you to think.<P>2) Find one who has done some voluteer work for free in some third world country, chances are he/she is one of the rare ones who truly care about the work and have the expierience to accomplish the goal.<P>3) Support your local nurse, they are the ones that do all the hard work for little pay and no recognition. If you are dying chances are a nurse will be by the bed holding your hand waiting for the doctor to show up from his round of golf at the country club. These are the unsung heroes of medicine-God Bless every one of them.<P>4) Don't accept poor personal care from your physician, unfortunetly the system is set up for doctors to be able to have a multitude of patients at once. Good for the pocket book, bad for you.<P>As for Zen, he taught me one important lesson. The truly dedicated people you meet deserve your spending dollars, motivation is usually obvious so watch for the clues.

[Guest]

I haven't been on the forum in quite awhile so I just read this whole thread. I would like to mention some of my experiences in this regard. I am a retired vocational/ technical teacher. Some of the comments regarding the guidance of students are very appropo. Ask any tech teacher who will talk freely. However some of the problems with the schools are caused by the community and by regulations that are imposed by the states. I taught for many years courses in vocational auto mechanics in a comprehensive high school. These courses were 3 hours long each. By state regulation for the size of the shop I was limited to 12 students in each class. This gave it a very expensive per pupil cost. The "Homeowners Assoc." in town didn't like this and finally put pressure on the board to close my shop. I was then assigned to the H.S. metal shop, among others, where I taught some light machining, sheet metal and sand casting. This lasted until the school was forced to move the weightlifting room out of the basement because it wasn't handicaped accessible. They took this shop for this. Al

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Al, good to hear from you again.<P>My company shares the same sentiments. <P>The following are true cases:<P>--Donsco, my employer, has always been an innovator in the Fe sand casting / finished part business. We spent countless dollars recruiting Penn State students for employment. Hired 22 students in the mid-90's, paid them well, including benefits.<P>Sad to report that only 3 are still with us.<P>Reason the best I can ascertain: They can now put "manufacturing experience" on their resumes.<P>--We have always been community oriented as far as inviting schools to tour our facilities to include lunch at our company owned restaurant.<P>About 3 years ago, we had 2 school bus loads of students from an "Un-named" local Vo-Tech visit. We had all our ducks in a row with forepeople, managers, etc., taking time away from their assignments to show these students what a modern, real-life manufacturer is all about.<P>Here is the shocker: At the end of the tour, the vo-tech teacher, in front of our main office, told his students, that, if they did not study/work hard, they would wind up working at a place like this.<P>This is true.<P>Peter J.

[Guest]

Peter ~ Did you consider knee capping him? ~ hvs

[Guest]

Hello Chuck-<BR> My post followed yours but it wasn't directed at you. That's just where it happened to fall. I realized too late that I had not made it clear that I was suggesting the book to everyone reading this thread.<BR> But since you answered, I'll offer my comments. I don't think that money, holding someone's hand, working in a third world country, or playing a round of golf has any bearing whatsoever on how good or bad a doctor is. Excelling at golf, however, is probably a better indication of his skill, concentration, and attitude than any of those things. I'm looking for a doctor who knows what he is doing and goes about it with a sharp analytical mind. The motivation that makes one excel at anything comes from the visualization of the goal in it's final perfect state and then doing one's best to make it so. It takes energy, commitment, and most of all, attitude to excel. That's what missing in this Country, and that is what the book is about. <P> Almost every time I bring my car to a show, some professional auto painter will hang over it, study it, and finally ask who did the metallic paint job. When I tell them I did and that I am a carpenter, mostly I get disbelief. I want to tell them about this book, but I always bite my tongue. You either get it or you don't.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

There's that "knee capping" suggestion, again.<P>It must work, as this is the 2nd time it was suggested over the years.<P>Not too late, Howard. I know where the instructor lives. <P>I'll get back with a progression report.<P>Regards, Peter J.

[Guest]

You forgot the most important thing GmBob, and it's the one thing that was never mentioned by Zen. <P>It's OK, most people forget this one thing and it is sorely lacking in todays world. It is the one criteria that I would pick a doctor exclusively for. It's the one thing that nearly everyone on this forum into old cars has displayed for their hobby.<P>LOVE.<P>And no amount of training can teach a person that, it comes from expierience.

[Guest]

Gee Peter, and I'm not even from South Philly. ~ hvs

[Guest]

Thanks for your last post, Chuck. It was too perfect. I'm going to print it out and hang it on the wall of my garage. <P>Meanwhile... Don't smoke, avoid saturated fat, get plenty of exercise, and good luck.

[Guest]

Geez, I guess I should put out this cigar and put these bacon skins away! You guys are no fun at all!!!!!!