An Observation by Jay Leno

[Guest]

Today while waiting in a doctor's office, I picked up a three year old copy of Mechanics Illustrated. Where else but in a doctor's office.<P>In an article about famous achievers in many fields, there was a short comment by Jay Leno.<P>"Want to know what is really wrong with this country? Step into my shop on any given day and you'll know. I'm 48 years old and I'm the youngest guy in there. Every good machinist in there seems to be over the age of 55 or 60. America seems to have lost something important."<P>Early last year we had a discussion on this forum basically bemoaning the lack of such skills in the younger generation. Some agreed and others pooh poohed the thought.<BR>Anyone want to comment on Mr. Leno's observation.<P>My personal creedo all these many years has been, "It isn't so much what you say, as who you are when you say it." Think about it. We say it and nobody listens. Jay Leno says the same thing and it is published.<P>hvs<p>[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Important topic, Howard.<P>My occupation is Account Manager for an 800+ employee foundry (3 of them) and machine shop operation.<P>Machine Operators, if you ask them, will say I am a "Machinist". In reality today, they are "Operators".<P>A true machinist is an artisan. One who can look at a part and desired tolerances, then, ascertain what operation (machine) will produce the desired part to-print. Today's "Operators" require the engineering & quoting departments to perform all the programming of the CNC Machining Centers. The "Operator" shows up for work and goes to it using what he is told by someone else.<P>An account of our's in New Jersey cited a very disturbing case example some years ago:<P>The County community college set up a Machinist' Program. They installed upwards of $750,000 in machining centers for the students. Guess what: All of this equipment sat unused due to lack of interest. In time, the college directors said they need the space for classrooms. All of the "computer" operated machinery was auctioned-off for peanuts.<P>The above is true with the Foundry operations. Everything is leaning towards automation due to lack of promotion by schools, companies, etc., and, in turn, the young folks are not encouraged. You would think that all automated machines are computer operated for the most part, that, more interest would be generated. I think it could be IF it were promoted. <P>Please do not get me wrong. The "Operators" are very talented in programming today in some cases, however, too many companies do all of the work for them. The big picture is the one here, one there part on a "conventional machine". (Custom-machined). It is not being taught, let alone no one is barging in the door to learn.<P>My opinion: The schools in the U.S. are not promoting this career. They are promoting keep you finger nails clean.<P>Regards,<P>Peter J. <P> <p>[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ]

[Guest]

Here in Cheyenne we are blessed with a fair sized machine shop that can take an odd part like a port plug for my '13 Cadillac, have a machinist [a real one] hold it in his hand and study it and then he will say, "How many do you need." "Eight, in steel not brass" "OK, I'll have them by the end of the week"<P>These same folks machined a '13 Cadillac crank hole cover from a solid brass billit and a 3/8" thick brass plate. Not cheap, but a perfect duplicate of one I borrowed for a sample.<P>As you say, Peter, a dying art. <P>Peter ~ Knowing your foundry background, I felt pretty sure you would jump in here. <BR>~ hvs

[ronbarn]

OK. so we have a schooling system that is letting us down. It does not teach trades. What will happen when the real machinists leave us? What are we doing about it? Damn, I wish I had the answers.<P>A couple of weeks ago I had an odd experience. I have not pushed my sons into the hobby. You know the drill. Build the park and they will come. Well, I built the park and it seemed like they never showed any interest.<P>Youngest, who some of you know has had some rough times, spent the weekend during the holidays. I was doing a small job on the lathe and he started asking about it. As I said it was a small job that involved a relatively simple machining operation of six pieces. I showed him what I was doing and he took over. First time he ever operated a lathe or indicated any interest. He did good on the first three and then screwed one up. He then described how he messed up and proceeded to correct the mistake. His pride was evident.<P>Maybe I've missing the boat with my own sons and with other young people in my area by not offering them the opportunity to touch the equipment. Maybe it is the one-on-one that is missing and not the school system. Maybe it's the extra martini I had that makes me ramble on.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Had to jump in here Howard.<P>Here's another case example, of which, may, or, may not be of interest to the folks reading the forum.<P>Back around the mid-70's, a very pleasant gent showed up in my office holding exhaust manifolds for a Cord (spel-chek). His case was his club membership required replacement parts. Asked how many he required. He said a few. Told him the roughly $8,000 in patterns/coreboxes would make the parts very expensive. He asked what minimum production run would be acceptable? <P>To condense this, about 3 weeks later, he showed up again. He went back to his club, said it would be in the $8,000 range for the pattern equipment, he polled members for a commitment to buy "X" amount of manifolds to meet our minimum. <P>They shocked the daylights out of me when he gave me a purchase order. We ran a satisfactory number to meet an economical run and they received their parts.<P>They also benefited in that their club now owned the equipment. They could sell future parts to whomever.<P>In closing, here's my tip:<P>If you guys & gals out there are totally frustrated, and, at the point of hyperventillating because you cannot get that odd-ball part either cast or machined, try this. Interface with fellow owners, clubs of the same, and, so on...<P>Ask everyone you can think of if they would be interested in becoming a member of a "co-op". The more people in your newly found "co-op" that need a part, especially a high wear part, the cheaper the part. It pertains to foundries, machine shops, porcelainizing, chroming. Endless.<P>My thoughts/experience here could possibly be an alternative to hard-to-find items, sources, etc. <P>Regards,<P>Peter J.

[1937hd45]

The school systen is geared to turn out shirt and tie jobs. If you have an interest in something else you are guided away from it and into a clean fingernail job.The dirty jobs get done overseas, or by immigrant workers.Good machinists are a vanishing, bread......but we'll never run out of Realtors.

[novaman]

1937hd45 what do you mean guided? Into or out of? In my school I don't recall anything in any form of career guidance. I took auto tech. As it turned out I already knew my instructor and he was involved in antique cars. Took auto tech in college, worked in two dealerships, a dragrace engine shop, ran a parts store for a year and a half, went back to the engine shop and now build dragsters for another race shop. I'm know taking CAD (computer aided drafting)(for work) and architectural drafting (for fun) at the local community college. <BR>I'm figuring out this career thing on my own.<P>Father Ron, I understand not wanting to push the hobby onto your sons. What I think must be frustrating for parents who would like to see their child get involved without pushing them into it is the how. Yes, you can take them to all the car clubs functions. But that doesn't always do it. Sometimes they feel bored and lose interest. The other adults don't involve them and kind of push them off to the side then the child looses interest. The one way I see that would work best is to make the child really involved whether he really is or not. Take them to the garage to help you. Let them work on parts with you. Ask them to help you fix something but let them fix it with your guidance. Let them help do some of the sanding. Yeah, you might have to "sneak out" to the shop and redo it so it comes out right. Try to find out the things they like and dislike doing. Then let them do what they find enjoyable to do. The main thing is make them involved, don't down grade them for errors (they are learning), give praises for improved workmanship and don't force them stay.<p>[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: novaman ]

[1937hd45]

Noveman, You were lucky to have auto shop in high school, not all do. Trades have been overlooked, with the big push for college.

[The Old Guy]

I have three sons,and they are all on there own now .the oldest has a GS that he will be restoring as soon as his commitment with the Navy is done. The middle son has four children and is hoping to get an antique car in the near future, and the youngest has a 67 Skylark that he is working on now. When they were young (5-9),they would come into the garage and ask to help.and I would clamp the vise grips close to where I was working and have them hold them. By the time they were 14-16 they were doing minor engine repair and wiring. The oldest boy put the complete wiring harness in my 40 Buick faster than I could because he was much more agile than I. Get them involved young and you get them hooked!!<p>[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: The Old Guy ]

[novaman]

When I was little, my dad had a '38 Mercury Convertible he bought to restore. I remember standing on the left front frame rail and sanding ONE spot on the cowl in front of the driver's window. I believe that is why is don't like sandpaper. I HATE sanding. It just dawned on me , I don't like Ford products either. Could the two be related? <P>Back to the subject. My dad to me to car local club events, Hershey and such. I enjoyed looking at the old cars. Do remember a Willys-Knight at Hershey when the showfield was in the stadium. The owner had nickles dancing on edge on top of the running engine. Neat, for a kid about 4 or 5 years old. It wasn't until after my Dad got his '49 Willys Jeepster that I realy took interest. Now being about 12, and dad having a "real antique" (drivable & not just and older car)Things started to change. One summer Dad and I changed the engine in the Jeepster. I was HOOKED!!! I'm now the one I think that has more old car blood in me than my dad. By the way, we took that Jeepster on a 1,000 mile tour from Rochester, NY to Detriot with the Genesse Valley Car Club Society (The region our National Pres. belongs to). The car had a whole 8mi round trip to the gas station a couple of days before leaving. No major problems. Problems were no O/D and a leaky fuel pump. That engine swap was the first time I remember actually doing some "real" work on a car with my Dad.<P>OlJalopy, I remember seeing your three daughters on tour, in the fall,wrapped up in blankets in the rumble seat. And enjoying it!!

[OlJalopy]

It's a bit different with daughters. Our three weren't really interested in working on the cars, other than being willing to wash & polish 'em, but they sure did like to drive them. Because J.C.T. doesn't insure younger drivers, we had to carry the cars on our regular vehicle policy so they'd be legal. That was expensive, but well worth it. It made the cars a real part of their life. They each picked a favorite car, and we showed our trust by accepting their choices of a '57 T-Bird, '60 Sunliner, & '63 T-Bird. (Funny how they all picked a car the boys would like. <P>Bottom line: That kept their interest. The youngest is now 29, and all are still involved. Two are judges, and when we travel to AACA meets, daughters, husbands, and grandchildren are often with us. We still let them use the cars when they want to. Might as well -- they'll be theirs one day, anyhow.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Talking about getting the kids involved in the hobby, imagine if you DIDN'T get them involved. Where would the kids be now ? <BR>I think you can see the results of not being involved in something good (not neccesarly cars) in our court systems and streets every day.

[Guest]

Need to add a thought here; as the Dean at a local college here in mid-Michigan stated; we don't have an auto mechanics program here, because the students are not taught to repair anything. They replace parts.

[Guest]

Dan: I remember in the early 80's when GM came out with the C-3 emission control system. A friend of mine was the service manager at the local Buick dealer and he remarked to me that with this system he didn't need mechanics, just parts replacers.<P>BTW: Has anyone seen the shop manuals for any late model vehicle? First step in every diagnosis table: Hook up the computer scanner to find out what is going on. Record codes and replace necessary parts!!!

[Mike Bartlett]

To Peter H and others on this topic.Operators,machinists,call them what you like.If an operator of a high tech,computer driven pc. of equipment can produce an item from that machine,then he is doing his job well.We all know that.Welcome to 2001 guys,there's not much need for a machinist as there was before computer driven equipment came on line.Don't knock those guys,its' the times.I remember digging holes with a shovel,now they dig with...well you know.A year back I had an operator make me several prs.of w/shield drip rails for 1911 Ford Torpedo windshields.With a 4" pc of an original drip rail,the operator programmed a HUGE press right in front of me,inserted a pc. of brass strip,the press came down and WHAM,I had a perfect replica of the original in hand.Thirty min. later I had about 10-12 sets for me and others who needed them.Machinists are skilled people,but times they are a changing.Why don't we have more younger folks in this hobby? Because the youngsters are hanging out in front of computers.As years go by,and antique autos get rarer then they are,there will be less and less doing what we all love doing at present.I don't like it anymore then the dissapearing machinists,but it's bound to go that direction.While I'm running at the mouth here,this organization has a gazillion dollars,do something more than what has already been done regarding younger folks joing on.Like free magazine subsriptions or free dues for under 16 yrs. old.I certainly don't have the answer to this problem.Do we have a committee that can investigate younger memberships? Sorry to have gone off on a tangent,apologies,Mike Bartlett

[Guest]

Think about it - why should there be a lot of young machinists anymore? Where would they work? Americans have evolved into a society of service providers across the spectrum of income levels. On second thought it ought to be - <P>The thing about working on our old cars that I believe is being lost - the older generations in the hobby came from a background of some mechanical exposure in their youth and many of them are tinkerers by nature. They like to work on their cars - from doing complete restorations to keeping the cars maintained. While there are certainly some of the younger generation coming into the hobby with similar capabilities, I believe more and more restorations will be done professionally or not at all. Just consider the difference in complexity between cars of the late '60s and the '77s that are AACA eligible in 2002. <P>Another disturbing trend is the disappearance of most early cars from shows and other events. Of course, they are harder to drive in today's traffic, but they also require a lot of hands on TLC that I believe many of the newer hobbyists don't want to do or don't feel capable of doing. <P>So are we going to see a shortage of machinists who can work on building those unavailable spare parts from scratch. Probably, but the laws of supply and demand <BR>should even this out. And maybe we could even afford our own machinists if we can just get a late night TV gig like Jay's.

[Guest]

Hmmm, it would seem I know something about this subject. First a little of my background since I'm new here. I currently hold 4 journeyman tickets (Red Seal on all thank you very much including one Govenor General Award), journey machinist, journey tool&die maker, journey millwright, journey welder (stick&tig), certified Mechanical Engineering Technologist as well as a few other things that relate to the metal working industry in Canada. I am 34 years old and have been in some kind of training for the last 15 years (including apprenticeships). The good Lord bestowed upon me hands that can make an old flat belt drive South Bend lathe sing like Loreena Mckinnit. I have worked in most of the major mechanical industries here in Canada (Hydro, Aircraft, Tool/die, heavy construction, Hospital/medical). You might say I am part of a dying breed of Artisans that made this continent great. You might also think I should be making 100k per year with the skills I've acquired. Truth is I feed my family with a job that earns me 50k, I repair/create surgical instruments for a major metropolitan hospital. This is the best job I have ever had, I stay clean wearing hospital greens and work from a office/laboratory where I create works of art out of surgical stainless steel for Doctors making at least three times my wage who take my creations and label them with their own name. I know more about metallurgy and mechanics than these Doctors will ever know about the human body (yes I've had to instruct them on righty tighty-lefty loosey). My boss is a 4 year University Mechanical Engineering graduate who can't change the oil on his car, he makes 5 dollars/hour more than I. These people treat me with the respect and admiration afforded visiting dignitary's and I am grateful for that. It does not however make up for the lack of monetary compensation that I deserve. I repair/restore automobiles from my home and fix/assemble computers for extra cash, funny how people will pay more money for auto repairs than they will for custom surgical instruments. I should start my own garage, I could make a killing. I have invented numerous devices that save my hospital 100's of thousands of dollars and have reduced the suffering of thousands of people without a single bonus check. If I was born 20 years earlier I would have been grandfathered into a Senior Engineering position, the best Engineers I have had the pleasure of working with were once great machinists. Today unless I can afford to go back to University I will never be offered a job like this because of my lack of qualification. If you ask me what is wrong, I'll tell you this; The art of machining is dead-period, Engineers graduating today are not taught how to engineer, cheap labor immigrants have destroyed the art, management cares nothing for quality only quantity, Like any other kind of art you won't be appreciated until you're dead, Engineers today steal ideas not create them. My kids will not be allowed to follow their fathers footsteps because I want a better life for them, they will go to school and I will pay the entire way even if it kills me. One day America will wake up and realize that our way of life has poisoned an entire generation with promises of a higher standard of living if they become another faceless computer programmer. Am I bitter? No, the good Lord blessed me with a gift and I am doing the most good with it that I know how. I have a job that allows me to express my art and I expierience a joy that no computer analyst could ever hope to feel. My work will survive and it will never be forgotten by those it has touched. It's too bad the bean counters would rather farm out my work to some large corporation and have their instruments manufactured by some dirt poor Bolivian child laborer working for 10 cents a day. After all I did the easy part-creation! Maybe one day when I'm old and worn some bald faced engineer will knock at my door begging for my help because the last man on earth who knows how to sharpen a surgical blade has died. I will smile, slowly close the door in his face, take the phone of the hook and go into the garage and put the finishing touches on a handmade engine turned aluminum dashboard I made for myself and bask in it's glow. He will never know the satisfaction of making something from a chunk of raw material and I'm not about to share Thanks!

[Guest]

Chuck ~ There is nothing more satisfying than the creation of something good and worthwhile, even if no one recognizes its worth or the worth of its creator at the time.<P>Yesterday I created a simple fix to improve a seal on the rear axle of an antique car. I also learned a new trick on this computer. The computer trick is transitory while the seal is forever. [or until it wears out] <P>Your post has been inspirational as well as a bit depressing. Thank you for coming on here and giving us the benefit of your knowledge and experience on the subject.<P>Stay young and healthy, for you are needed. ~ hvs

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Chuck, buddy, you hit the nail on the head, with the exception of the bit about engineers stealing ideas. Being a mechanical engineer, I have to take exception to that part, but the rest is dead on!<P>Until recently, I worked as a machine designer. Tired of the low pay (significantly less than you, and significantly less than the regional average for my level of education and experience) and lack of appreciation, I transfered to the manufacturing department of my company. My company moved three years ago, leaving behind a couple of hundred skilled laborers, most of which are now missed. It was much harder to find replacements than the powers that be had thought. The theory was that we will give a barrage of tests to each prospective employee and choose those with good attitudes. With a good attitude, skill will not be needed. We'll teach them what they need to know. WRONG!!! Our quality went to Hell in a handbasket and still is not up to what it was before we moved. So much for that theory. Wonder what book on Japanese management styles they were reading this time? Even the ones who did have good attitudes no longer have them. They have been jacked around and screwed over so many times that they now "have the attitude they were given".<P>We pretty much did away with the machine shop. We still have all of the machinery, but only three personnel. Only one of them is a true machinist. He is the only one who came from the old location. The other two are products of a fast learn program that taught them little. Sad thing is, the one machinist is getting older. His eyesight is not what it once was and his quality is slipping. We now farm out most of our machining to a vendor. <P>Things are BAD. I don't know what it would take to fix them, but I don't like the omen. When this guy retires, there will be no replacing him. Guys like him are just to few and far between. I'm afraid that it will get worse before it gets better.

[Guest stutzdriver]

I am the sales manager for a company that is in the basic machining industry. We manufacture (from US steel) the finest workholding components for machine tools found anywhere in the world. The family that owns this 60 year old concern has found the lack of education and level of learning to be so appaling that one of the 4th generation sons (a computer literate ME) created an on line learning center called Tooling U. This has been picked up in the trades and by organizations like SME as a great learning tool for ENGINEERS and others who might lack the basic knowlege in the areas where classes are available. You may wish to lookat what is available at <A HREF="http://www.toolingu.com." TARGET=_blank>www.toolingu.com.</A> Here is found some very good, easy to understand basic education on theory, materials, basic shop math, workholding, etc. Well over 200 "classes" in the work. I ramble but the idea is that we can't find enough qualified "operators" let alone our need for quality machinists.<P>Look at the site and give me some feedback, we would be interested in the insight. You can email me at jay.traner@jergensinc.com with any questions or comments.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hal. Well put. This is "reality".<P>When Howard originally started the post, I forgot to mention in my subsequent post, the measures we in the "foundry / machine shop" business have resorted to overcome operators vs. true machinist.<P>Around 1992, we realized a sincere effort of our current machine shop people to do their jobs well. However. A big "HOWEVER", we also noticed a lack of skills that were not condusive to profitability.<P>We implemented "Pay-for-Skills". This is a program, where, for example, a dedicated person cannot set up his machining center's fixtures, or, a conventional machine operator, had problems reading a CAD Model (a.k.a. blueprint).<P>For example: <P>--Boss: "Joe, like to learn how to set-up?"<BR> "Jane, like to inspect your machined<BR> casting-to-print and be held <BR> responsible to the customer?"<P>--Joe & Jane: "Sure, Boss".<P>--Boss: Joe, we'll train you to set up on <BR> your own. If successful, you'll <BR> receive "X" amount more in pay.<P> Jane, this is a heavy responsibility<BR> however, all of our resources will<BR> be available to you. With training<BR> on-campus, or, off, you can do it. <BR> You will receive "X-X-X" in pay.<P>It has worked extremely well for my company. This is the real world in my area of Pennsylvania.<P>Amen.

[Guest]

I hope I have not offended any of the Mech. Eng. in this group, that was certainly not my intention. It's just that so many of todays Engineering graduates are so deficient in the basic skills of mechanics. <P>When I was taking my Eng. course at college it was my machine shop teacher who recognized my aptitude and suggested I might enjoy machining as a profession. <P>He was a truly gifted machinist drowning in the sea of dim witted, uninterested engineering techs passing through the school and he told me I was the first "kid" he had seen in 10 years who reminded him of himself.<P>He asked me what I thought of the program, I told him that I thought there would be more emphasis on actual engineering principles and less on the "report writing" skills. He told me of the Golden Era of the industrial revolution and how today these skills are being forgotten by society. There was very little I had in common with my classmates and the more he talked the more I realized that I was a hands on "engineer" who only wanted to express myself through physical creation.<P>When I went through the machinist program the subsequent year I found it full of even less interested individuals who only wanted a job after the course concluded. Thank God my teachers were skilled and challenged me every day.<P>The moral of the story, and I learned this later in life. It doesn't matter what you chose to do in life, as long as you give it your best. Perhaps this is what is wrong in todays World, kids no longer are doing what they are good at only what pays the best. This only leads to boredom and hatred for what they do.<P>I should take back what I said earlier about not letting my kids become machinists, if that is what they want then I will teach them every thing I know. There certainly was a long list of talented individuals who taught me everything I know today and I am grateful to each and every one.<P>The big guy upstairs has given each of us a gift, and it is up to us to find out what that is. I was lucky, I found out early in life and made a choice that although unprofitable has provided a joy others only dream of. <P>My wife often wonders how I can read a 1945 edition of the Machinists Handbook (Bible) when I have a brand new edition on the shelf. I explain that there are more things we have forgotten in the last 50 years than we have learned and if you don't pay heed to history then you are doomed to repeat it. <P>I often think of a next door neighbour of mine who had worked for the railroad for his entire life as a machinist and then later as an engineer. He had retired and was in failing health when he decided to sell off his tools. He asked me if I was interested in any of them, trying not to apear too interested I said sure lets get together on Saturday and go through them".<P>We spent 12 hours looking at each individual item and he told me the story attached to every one. After it was done he asked me what it was all worth, I was speechless. The dollar value he then said was so ridiculusly low that I tripled it and wrote him a check and stuffed it in his overalls before he had a chance to read it. Before I left I gave him his old worn out 0-1 micrometer and told him that he should keep it because I already had one and who knows, maybe he would need it. The look in his eye at that moment made me so proud that I will never forget what those tools had created. <P>I read his old handbook from time to time to remember him and remind me.<P>He never cashed the check.

[Guest]

Chuck ~ Not are you undoubtedly a fine machinist, but you are a darned good communicator as well. Thanks for your input. It has given this thread new life. ~ hvs

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Chuck,<P>No offense taken here. I know some guys who fall perfectly into the category you describe, so I understand where you are coming from. I used to work for one. <P>I was a mechanic long before becoming an engineer. It is my first love. I had always enjoyed mechanic work. I quit college after the first year to go in the Army so I could turn wrenches for a living. After the Army, I spent another year turning wrenches at the local Ford dealership, before returning to college. So, as you can see, I was a mechanic first. <P>Sometimes I feel that has hurt me, though. Everyone I work with knows that I am a "hands on" kind of guy. It gets me a lot of respect from the guys in the shop, but I think I am sometimes looked down upon by the ones who do the promoting and handing out of raises. Oh well, as much as I would like the pay I think I deserve, If I had to choose, I would rather have the respect from the guys in the shop. I enjoy what I do. I guess that is why I am still here.

[Guest]

This problem of finding Master Tradesmen such as Mechanics, machinists, millwrites or lathehands is an evolution of the industrial revolution. CNC has replaced the need for large quantities of Master skills, at least as far as MASS PRODUCTION is concerned. OUR problem, as hobbiests (i hate that word 'hobbiest')is that WE still need the Masters for our one-time custom repairs or machining. AND, we r not going to hire any for 10 bucks an hour anymore either.<BR>THE SOLUTION: WE (as hobbiests) will either have to get our wallets out big time to find and pay a Master OR LEARN THE TRADE OURSELVES and buy the equipment such as a 9X20 lathe, bench mill etc. These can be had for about $1k each with enuf tooling to get by on. I have recently (over the last 5 or 6 years) come to realize this. <BR>I've found that this classic car (and motorcycles) 'hobby' (hell, this is no damned hobby...there is NO word to describe it) is full of alot of cry babies. There is no sense in crying over the ways and means of the world. THIS IS SOMETHING WE WILL HAVE TO WORK AT OURSELVES TO OVERCOME. Either get our wallets out OR better yet learn it ourselves!!!!!!!!! WHO SAYS the Day-Care generation owes anyone machining skills anyway????????

[Guest]

'A' Model Hal: You are ABSOLUTLY RIGHT!!!!!! i'm sitting here right now in a 3 piece suit with a pair of $300 shoes on my feet and grease under my finger nails (lots of it). There is no respect for the skill trades anymore (probably never was). It grinds me to the bone to attend some silly ass college or university function where some PHD in art stands up and coo's about ancient sculptors and artisans. I've watched uneducated men take a piece of solid steel, cut and grind and shape on it to make a die to form a beautiful fender. AND do it to tolerances within .005 inch. WHILE another man across town makes the matching punch and they fit together perfectly. Those so-called 'geniuses' of ancient sculptor could have carved ANYTHING +or- 1/4 inch or more and still. Some of the die makers i watched made those dies with hand tools and a few small handheld power tools not a great deal more sophisticated than Micheal Angeloes tools.

[1937hd45]

THREE HUNDRED DOLLAR SHOES!!!!!!!!!! What did the poor cobbler get to make them?

[Guest]

1937 -<BR>They make about the same amount per hour as the children who produce $150+ athletic shoes.

[Guest]

God bless you HAL, engineers like you are an even rarer breed than skilled mechanics/machinists.<P>One of the finest engineers I ever had the pleasure of working under was at an reciprocating aircraft engine rebuilding facility.<P>The company was formed from a much larger organization that decided to drop rebuilding these engines because they were unprofitable, gas turbines and airframe were their core business.<P>The "old timers" who were about to lose their jobs bought the business from the corporation for one dollar. They set about scratching a living out of the meager late 80's economy and made all the employees shareholders.<P>It was at this time I was graduating from the machinist program and I had spent my 2 week "work expierience" working there. The only machinist they had still worked at the large corporation and would come in at night to do the days work for the entire facility.<P>When they offered me a job I was ecstatic, I was one of only 3 of 30 who was going to have a job right out of school. The equipment was old and worn but I was "King" there as the only machinist. <P>The job was daunting for a first level apprentice as everyone there was over 50 and knew the repair procedures from memory. I didn't have a Journeyman over me so I started learning every repair from a huge library of old books filled with the history of flight. The boss told me that if I had any questions to ask the "engineer".<P>Things were going fine until one day an old Lycoming engine came in for overhaul and the first order of business for me was to make sure the cases were straight and take them to the inspectors.<P>The inspectors found a multitude of problems but the most serious was the amount of wear on the rear cam bosses/bearings. The engineer was called and he dug an old repair procedure out of the library, photocopied it and gave it to me. I listened with interest as we discussed the procedure and I reassured him that I could handle it.<P>The text was old but the language of mechanics is as universal as a raised middle finger. The first order of business was to make a jig and fabricate jig bushings for the custom bore diameter that I required, I intended to make a tool that could be used again to fix these cases as I expected to do this job again some day.<P>As my first project, everything was going peachy until it was time to make the replacement bushings. The old text specified "type 45 red brass"?<P>I was at a loss as to what this red brass was. There was no SAE # that correlated to this spec and my handbook didn't even mention "red brass". I decided to go see the engineer, hopefully he could help me.<P>When I went to see him he was immersed in some ancient book talking to a customer in the states. He was describing to this customer how to inspect his old aircraft and the pitfalls to watch out for. When he finished he asked me how things were going and I explained my dilema.<P>As I was talking he picked up the phone and dialed our material supplier and asked to talk to some other "old timer". I shut my mouth and listened patiently, he told the salesman he needed a brass with 45% copper content and he didn't know which SAE # it might cross reference to.<P>The salesman gave him a number and he ordered me a foot of that diameter. After he hung up the phone he told how in the "old days" they spec'd brasses by their major alloying ingredient and usually gave a number to identify the alloy percentage. The "red" told him that the major alloy was copper. With this understood it was easy to find a SAE equivalent. <P>This all made sense to me as a high percentage of copper would alloy the bearing to transfer heat better while still being fairly wear resistant. The original bores were only cast aluminum and he said that if they came from the factory with brass bushes they would likely would still be seviceable today.<P>Without him there I would have probably never had found the proper brass for the job. From that day forward I have bought every old manual/text I could get my hands on and learned not to think I knew everything.<P>That company no longer exists because the major manufacturers got together and decided to exchange old engines for new for the same price as an overhaul. I think the new engines are made in Mexico, some of the replacment engines castings are of such low quality that the inclusions in the castings preclude a person from welding them in the field. <P>I wonder how long these aircraft will fly and if they will survive repeated heat/cool cycles with the poor quality cylinders. I expect that before TBO the engines will be scrap and people will die in unexplained "cylinder loss" crashes that the FAA will say was pilot error. <P>I don't fly in small piston engine aircfaft if I can avoid it anymore. There are some things that technology can never replace, and that's the knowledge and expierience of great men like my engineer. <P>I only hope the world doesn't have to re-learn this lesson. So my advice to all you "old timers" out there is this, share your knowledge with the nearest apprentice, look past the nose ring and tongue piercing and see the blank easel waiting for you to write the future on. <P>He/she just might be the only person who will listen to your stories and maybe make use of your hard won knowledge. <P>I hope I haven't bored all of you with my stories but Jay Leno is one of the few people out there who appreciate the past and this is what inspired me to join your group.<P>I once saw a program on TV where he took a journalist for a ride on his steam car and he showed the procedure involved in driving/maintaining the car and how nice it was to own such a unique device. <P>The beautiful thing Jay explained was how quiet the car ran and the abundant torque that was available from 0 rpm was enough to spin the rims in the tires. <P>I often think what could be built using todays technology using clean burning natural gas and modern materials in the steam engine. Maybe I should build one?! Forget hydrogen and batteries lets look to the past and create our future, the technology is already here.

[1937hd45]

Chuck, Thanks for another fine addition to this post. Don't think for a minute that they are too long. I think they end too soon.

[OlJalopy]

That's sure a big 10-4! We all went through the know-it-all years before we realized how little we really knew and began to pay attention to a mentor. Now days, the young graduates believe they can do anything with a keyboard and mouse. I wonder how long it'll take before they realize what "gray hair" means. Hope it's not too late.<P>From my experience, I'm a proponent of "field" training. Graduates should have to spend four or five years in the real world, with real tradesmen, before they are turned loose to design anything. That way they have a much better understanding of what it takes to build that fancy new widget or the bridge into the future. <P>Trouble is, too many firms expect the new kid to know everything 'cause he went to college, and never bother to mentor him or scrutinize his work before it goes out the door. Then the Boss can't understand why the customer can never be satisfied.

[Guest]

GRAY HAIR ~ That which we gave to our parents and received from our children. <P>Unfortunately in some cases it didn't stay around the head long enough to turn gray.<BR> ~ hvs

[Guest]

Here's a radical idea, lets see what you all think. <P>Why not create a new category of mechanical specialist, one that ensures that history and all it has to teach us will not be forgotten. I'm going to call this imaginary specialist- "Master Mechanical Journeyman" or Master Mech for short (kind of has nice ring to it).<P>His training will begin at the local college and would be accessible to anyone with the mechanical aptitude to pass a rigourous exam to determine his abilities. <P>This exam would test his/her spacial ability, common sense logic, abstract thinking, ethical reasoning, and knowledge of the natural world. <P>Lets assume that most applicants will not be recent high school graduates who will clog the curriculum just because they have the money and managed to get high marks in school because they can memorize words from a text word for word.<P>The accepted applicant will be a person who has a rare gift relating to the mechanical world. I believe Leonardo Da Vinci should be a role model the school should seek to attract. <P>The course will not be easy and will be at least an 8 year course. Mind you only 2 will be spent full time at the school. The rest of the time the applicant will be employed in industry for specific periods of time, perhaps one year in length for each job. <P>The first 2 years will be spent learning the fundamentals of mechanics much like that taught to Mechanical Engineers, except the mathematics will be taught using real world models only. <P>It is my expierience that these types of people have trouble comprehending abstract mathematics until they have to apply it to a real world situation. They usually understand the concept once confronted with the simplicity of a real model. <P>Perhaps it is because they exhibit highly structured logical thinking (Im not a pychologist, but the phenomena exists you can look it up).<P>These 2 years will be spent learning the wonders of the natural world and mastering the tools necessary to construct with them. Lathes, Mills, hammer and chisel, abrasives, computer software-you can insert your own requisites here.<P>Once the first two years are complete the Master Mech will enter the real world and will apprentice for one year in a variety of specialties; tool and die, machining, composite material construction, painting/coatings, stone masonry, electrical, mechanical conveyance industry, design engineering, and perhaps raw material smelting.<P>During this apprenticeship the money earned will be split 50/50 with the school, this will help offset the high cost of learning and also allow the apprentice to survive. I should mention that no accepted applicant will be denied a student loan as upon completion of the course his certification will only be renewed if he/she maintains his low monthly payments up to date. Acceptance into the course guarantees a loan.<P>During the apprenticeship the candidate will be expected to return to school for 1 week every 3 months to share his expieriences and to maintain his relationship with the school and the educational staff. The time in school will be spent preparing his thesis for his eventual graduation.<P>The thesis will be based on anything that accomplishes a goal, I envision a graduation ceremony where along with the diploma presentation his thesis will be displayed and he will be required to demonstrate it's usefulness and the world will take notice of his/her accomplishment. <P>All the major corporations will be lining up to hire this "renaissance person" and bidding wars will ensue.<P>The graduate will be allowed to prefix his name with DR, as he will surely have attained this status.<P>Perhaps this is a romantic notion of what a Engineer/Machinist should be, but what the world needs is thinkers and doers who can grasp the fundamentals of life and bend nature to suit.<P>We'll leave the regular engineers/machinists to sort out the details and learn. <P>If you know about Leonardo Da Vinci and how he became a great man you would see that the school system should concentrate on seeking out the individuals that have his traits and give them the resources to accomplish great things. <P>I want to hear your thoughts on this subject on what this "master" should have included in his curriculum, after all I think all of you here have some or all of these traits to some degree. <P>Perhaps completion of all the above requisites individually would allow someone to "grandfather" themselves into this very exclusive fraternity but the all important thesis must be extraordinary.<P>I think that this new category be created mainly because one of my "Engineering" instructors got his masters degree on a thesis titled "The strengths of aluminum foils". Yes, Reynolds is the strongest but it hardly changed the world for the better.<p>[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Chuck da Machinist ]

[D Binger]

There is one thing that has not been talked about to this point. <BR><B>COMMON SENSE</B><BR>There is a lack of it everywhere you look. All the schools and classes will do no good if this is not there in the first place. It is something that is almost impossable to learn. You can talk common sense all you want, but most people will not listen. They will tell you that they know it already.<P>Dan

[Guest]

<B>BRAVO BINGER!</B> ~ HVS

[Guest]

I think others have touched on the unemotional reason for the increasing rarity of skilled machinists. Production and materials technology continues to evolve, so casting, injection molding and computer-contolled machining are used in today's factories. The amount of available places for skilled machinists to make a living has decreased. We in the hobby appreciate such a person's skill in creating or recreating a piece - but this is craftsmanship and no longer mainstream production. It must have been the same with automotive wood workers when all-steel bodies came in.

[ronbarn]

Chuck, you must be smoking the same mushroon extract that I use. As DBinger would say when he is not harping about COMMON SENSE, Boy Howdy!<P>With the pie in the sky curriculum Chuck proposes we could develop a fantastic breed of skilled Engineer/Machinists.

[Guest]

Ronbarn you think 8 years is pie in the sky? Most of the Doctors I work with every day have had much the same training and for some of them it took 12 years!! They worked at University for 4 years and they then were thrust into a hospital where they basically live getting sleep when they can, and being on call 24 hours a day. They treat the scum of humanity for little pay during this tenure all the while studying for the next exam and following up on patients that they have treated.<P>You want to talk about a character building exercise, this is it. I just think that there is a need in todays society for the same kind of training, only in Engineering. I beleive there exists a kind of "special" person who has the perseverence and love of his work who should be given the chance to excel in the profession.<P>I've personally seen too many uninspired engineers. The term engineer has lost it's meaning and has strayed from it's original intent. There are many talented individuals in the profession who could take this course and flourish. I just think it's time to distinguish these individuals from the rest of the herd and recognize their worth, I think mankind would be better for it.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Folks, here are a few "true case" examples of what Dan mentioned concerning Common Sense, of which, we in the foundry/machining business run across more times than I care to remember:<P>--Up until roughly 15 years ago, a prospect/customer would mail hand-drawn prints for quoting. They were drawn for sand castings. The engineers that drew them knew common sense. All the radii, fillets, draft, etc., were on the print. <P>Today, the design engineers, right out of the computer-age colleges, have "NO" OJT. My best guess is 60% of the CAD Models (prints) we receive must be questioned at length via phone calls, conference calls involving many people that could be doing something else more constructive, road trips by me, and, in general, a lot of expense money.<P>We receive Models with reverse draft, casting models that should be 2, or, 3 castings, but, designed into "1", Models that are impossible to pour as they do not know anything about the gating/coring process. When we contact the design engineer, we must waste a ton of time explaining "basics" as to why their design cannot be cast. We must waste a ton of time offering ideas that will save them money in the long run.<P>A sizeable portion of today's design engineers sit at their terminals all day long designing parts, getting over-creative to satisfy their company, then, throw the concept to us and say "quote it" / "make it." <P>I forgot to mention we also invite them to visit us to see the process and how it applies to what they want. You would be floored at how many tell us they are "too busy" to leave the office.<P>--Fact: We have a new part for an un-named company that celebrated its one year anniversary 2 weeks ago, and, is still being tabled as to what they designed / versus what COMMON SENSE can produce.<P>--Tolerances: Foundry Standards are +/- .030 on the average section we produce. We receive Models (prints) with +/- .010, +/- .015 and so on. <P>Then, as usual, we must waste our time, and, their's phoning, visiting...<P>Common sense in the classroom? Hope it will return some day.<P>Amen.<P>Peter J.

[ronbarn]

Chuck, I think you misunderstood my apparent mispoke. The course you describe is exactly the one I would have chosen if they had it when I went to school to get my BSME. I worked in a machine shop to pay for my schooling. I learned far more in the shop than I did in the classroom and this was a long time ago when a mechanical engineering student had to take shop courses. I did well in those and not so well in the theory classroom. I AGREE WITH YOU!!!<P>The pie-in-the-sky comment was that in reality the current "leaders" in the academic institutions cannot equate the rigors (as you well described) of medical training with the desparate need for rigorous engineer/machinist training.<P>In so many of their minds the "good" students aimed to be doctors and laywers and engineers (though few had any concept of what engineering training really needed) and the others went into the trades. That is where our educational system has failed so many of us and where the industrial world has also failed us, as you so eloquently expressed in your comments.<P>Retired now, I find happiness working in my modest machine shop and while I am making big pieces of metal into smaller pieces of metal and creating parts that I need for my cars, I sometime wish that I had dedicated my early life to have the experiences that you have had.<P>Thank you for joining our DF. I enjoy your comments. We are on the same side on this subject.