Time to Buy a New Convert. Top

[Guest Ranger]

Happy New Year to all.

I need some help in getting my terminology straight.

I have a black "Haartz Cloth" top on my '90, it has the feel of canvas, it's been stained by sea gulls.

I've read about "hartz vinyl", "over sized tops", etc.

I'd like to find a premium cloth top with a new headliner.

1) is there a difference between "hartz vinyl" and "Haartz cloth"?

2) the guys in Maricopa, AZ have advertised in the past, are they still in

business and has anyone had experience dealing with them?

3) any general or detailed information would be welcomed

Any help would really be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim Too

[NCReatta]

"Over sized tops" refers to the fact that Mike (buickreattaparts.com), when we started selling the new tops, made them just a tad bit larger. Reattas came from the factory with the tops looking a bit too small in the first place. Mike added in more fabric to make the top look much better than the original. As to the "Haartz Vinyl" I'm not sure.

I believe Mike is your best bet for your cloth top and headliner. He's in Maricopa, and he's still going strong. He's quoted me the $890 for a new Haartz cloth top, and somewhere about $175 for a new headliner.

His contact info, and such are both in Hemmings, and on his website: buickreattaparts.com. All my experiences with him have been good.

[Guest Kingsley]

I sell the EZ-On convertible top and can offer you attractive prices and PROMPT delivery which, indeed, can be a rareity some times.

If you will send me a PM oulining your requirementes I will be only to happy to help with some worthwhile information. EZ-On will give you the name of one of their recommended installers in your area.

[wws944]

Almost all Reatta convertibles came with vinyl tops. I believe it is called "Haartz pinpoint vinyl". A few apparently came from the factory with cloth tops. It would be interesting to know if yours is still the original top or not, because if it is, it is pretty rare.

[Guest steveskyhawk]

If you are in the market for a convertible top for your Reatta convertible then you probably have noticed the problems. Original and off the shelf tops seem to be just plain too small. The weatherstrip over the side windows is exposed and looks awful, water drips in etc. I have seen a few top replacements and they have looked "newer" but had the same fit problems as the original tops.

I have bought 2 tops from Mike at buickreattaparts.com and am glad that I chose to buy from Mike. He has been at this a long time and has seen the problems. His tops are produced with an exclusive proprietary pattern that includes about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch extra in the critical areas that make the fit of the top look plush rather than standard (too small). Off the shelf tops are generally only available in standard color vinyl whereas Mike's tops can be ordered in leopardskin if you wish as it is a one off commodity.

You can probably get an off the shelf top quicker than you can get a top from Mike. With such small production numbers of Reatta convertibles your top will need to be made to order. It will be put into the production schedule as the MANUFACTURER deems appropriate. This may take awhile. Making the top probably takes less than an hour but you must wait your turn. The manufacturers do not publish their production schedules and the distributors don't have it either.

I've heard the complaints about "how long" it takes to get a top from Mike. I have never heard anybody complain after their top arrived. The people I spoke to were delighted after their top was installed. When I want to see how a quality top is supposed to fit and look I simply go out in my garage. Even the installer complimented the quality and said the top fit well. I have seen replacement tops on cars parked side by side. There is a difference

Buy your top from whoever you wish as I have no financial interest in the top business. I just like to see our cars look as nice as they can look.

[Jim]

Jim,

There used to be a song about selling ocean front property in Arizona. I have seen the little lake you live on in Pine City so tell me, where did you encounter sea gulls?

I am going to send you an email.

Jim

[Nittany]

I'm also very pleased with the top I bought from Mike, gets lots of positive comments (Hartz cloth not vinyl), personally I prefer the top down!!

[Guest ReattaFan1]

Ronnies site reattaowner.com has a link in "parts and vendors" to a Company called Electron Top Replacement Convertible Top Manufacturer :: Electron Top

[reattadudes]

ah, the joys of the internet. information at the touch of a button, even if it's bad.

when we started selling tops almost ten years ago, we ordered two tops (one cloth, one vinyl) from the only two manufacturers that make tops for Reattas. we had them installed on two of our own convertibles.

Electron was one of the companies.

the quality of their tops was so bad we returned both for replacement. the replacement tops were just as bad. puckers everywhere, and the rear windows were off by over an inch on one side. of course, they were also cut too short, with side window gaskets fully exposed. the rear area where the top touches the deck looked like "flood pants", just like the original shrunken top, sitting almost three inches over the deck.

let's examine that $1011 price.

that buys you a VINYL top. in one of three colors.

if you live in one of 17 states, you'll be paying sales tax (New York law). that's $89.72

shipping (UPS ground) will be in the $25-$60 range depending on location.

to recap:

vinyl convertible top/heated glass window, only three colors: $1140.72.

cloth, an additional $350. some colors even more. total: $1521.78.

*******************************************************

now let's move on to our tops. to date, we've sold 328. not one workmanship issue, ever.

we DON'T charge sales tax.

shipping IS included. anywhere in the USA and Canada.

VINYL, with heated glass window: $689, TOTAL. choose from 40 colors.

CLOTH, with heated glass window: $889, TOTAL. choose from 38 colors.

we also offer COLOR-KEYED custom headliners, just in case you're tired of riding around in a cave.

that's it.

three changes from standard tops, exclusive ONLY to us:

-tops cut one inch longer over the side windows; completely covers window gaskets. water leaks and wind noise issues disappear.

-two rows of matching stitching sewn around the perimeter of the rear window, completely eliminating window delamination.

-top cut two inches longer in the back, eliminating the "flood pants" look.

our prices have never changed in over eight years. costs have increased, our prices haven't yet.

always look at the bottom line, not vague promises.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

[Ronnie]

ah, the joys of the internet. information at the touch of a button, even if it's bad.

when we started selling tops almost ten years ago, we ordered two tops (one cloth, one vinyl) from the only two manufacturers that make tops for Reattas. we had them installed on two of our own convertibles.

Electron was one of the companies.

the quality of their tops was so bad...

I'm surprised you didn't take advantage of this opportunity to slam the other manufacture that makes tops for the Reatta.

I don't doubt that your products are as good as you say. If that is true, do you really need to bad mouth the competition's products to sell yours? Wouldn't it have been just as easy, and more professional, to just tell us all the good things about your top instead of criticizing the completions product?

I know nothing about Electron and I have nothing Reatta related to sell including information. I just try to provide a service to Reatta owners by making information they need easy to find. To insinuate that the vendor list on my website is "bad information" is uncalled for.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[padgett]

Mike was responding to an earlier post about Electron. I think his personal experience was valuable to know and he gave specific examples of problem areas. I have seen many GM tops with delaminated glass so know that is a problem area.

I tend to keep cars way past the sell-by date so when I replace the top on the white car this year I like knowing that the Reatta specific and glass window specific problem areas have been addressed.

[Bushwack]

Jim,

I sent you a PM.

[reattadudes]

Ronnie,

have you purchased an Electron top? what is your own personal experience with them?

over 50 of the tops we've sold have been to replace Electron tops that were less than a year old. many of those people paid over $2,000 (some over $3,000) with installation, and still weren't happy with their tops. they fit poorly, and had wind and water leak issues.

I also relayed my experience with them, which was long before the quality issues also showed up on other customer's cars. as you noticed, I hadn't mentioned a word about anyone else's experience, just my own.

I would like to think we gave Electron more than one chance to show the quality of their product to us. we first ordered two tops (which at the time was still over $2,000), and had them installed. they fit poorly, and we then gave them another chance by reordering two more, again, one cloth, and one vinyl. when the next two didn't fit, we came to one of two conclusions: 1) they had a bad pattern, or 2) they had poor workmanship. either way, they were not tops we wanted to sell. we threw the two Electron replacement tops in the trash, and went with the second company.

I have absolutely no idea why you would take any comments I made personally, as not single one was directed at you.

people are welcome to buy anything they like. if they want to spend $600 more for an Electron top, then they should do that. if they don't want to buy one from me, I can assure you I'll sleep tonight.

by the way, we've had over $130 in price increases since 2002, and have never raised our prices one penny. just got the invoices for the last ones ordered this week, and we're now making a whopping $16.92 profit on each top we sell now. perhaps it's time for me to start socking away that princely sum for my vacation home.

when we started to sell tops over nine years ago, I approached it with a totally open mind. I had no idea there would be any difference between manufacturers, but there was. I have no regrets that we made the choice in manufacturer that we did, and neither do any of the nearly 350 customers who also made that choice.

they count on us to provide the best, and we do.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited December 31, 2010 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,

I have absolutely no idea why you would take any comments I made personally, as not single one was directed at you.

Here is why:

Ronnies site reattaowner.com has a link in "parts and vendors" to a Company called Electron Top Replacement Convertible Top Manufacturer :: Electron Top

Then you said:

ah, the joys of the internet. information at the touch of a button, even if it's bad.

Nothing I said in my last post had to do with who has the best top. I know absolutely nothing about Electron tops. My comments were about what you said concerning bad information on my website.

You made it sound like ReattaFan1 had found some bad information on ReattaOwner.com. If you look at Electron in the vendor list on my website it only has a link to their website. It has no recommendation for or against them at all so what could be bad about it?

[Guest tempest6cyl]

Getting back to Ranger's original question about "hartz vinyl" and "Haartz cloth" materials.

I recall that there were two manufacturers of bulk convertible top material back during the Reatta days that we used at ASC. They were Haartz and a European company called Happich.

The black, white, and tan vinyl tops were made from the Haartz vinyl material. It had a rough, diamond grain surface to it. At the program start I remember only vinyl being available in production,

The cloth tops were made form the Happich material. It looked and felt more like a canvas material. I recall seeing them in a dark red, blue, tan, and black. There may have been other colors that escape my memory but I recall the fabric tops were not coming until the 1991 MY. The Happich cloth was used because Haartz didn't have cloth at the time.

There is a third company called Stayfast making top material now but, I don't recall them coming into play until after the Reatta days were over.

Personnally, I like the feel and appearance of a cloth top over a vinyl. I believe they hold there 'fit' better over time. The vinyls seem to shrink.

Not surprisingly, convertible tops are not water tight but work by deflecting and shingling water away from entry points. Having more material over the side glass gaskets doesn't sound like a bad thing. It would be a problem if it got so long that the side glass dragged on the seam everytime you opened or closed the door though. Same would apply to the rear.

The top cover fit can also be affected by the installation and how the top is adjusted. A good installer can make a so-so top look good and conversely a bad installer can a good cover look bad. You'll want to research installers also.

Hope this helps you be a better educated consumer.

[Guest Kingsley]

Referring to my previous post, the motivation for adding the E-Z On convertible tops to the items which I now sell is reflected in the mission statement on my webcsite www.ReattaSpecialtyParts.com. Tops are a natural addition to the current offerings of first class replications of the no longer available OE convertible sun visor clips as well as headlamp crank arm parts kits.

Orders for EZ On convertible tops can be placed by sellers only through Regional Distributors and it was an EZ-On Company suggestion that I work though the Veteran Company here in Los Angeles. I am assured by them that I have access to any and all of the products manufactured by EZ-On.

The premier top, the Haartz cloth, is available from me at a total price of $785.00. The Vinyl top is $605.00. Both of these models have the most desirable heated rear glass window. The vinyl window is available at a reduced price and, of course, these are delivered prices in the lower 48 states including all sales taxes with the exception of sales in California.

It takes only my receipt of a $250.00 initial payment to have your order placed by me through the Distributor/EZ-On Company on the same or next business day. The balance is due immediately when the Buyer receives notification from us that shipment has been made and shipping details are furnished.

My Distributor quotes normal two-week delivery after placement of order. In most cases, we are able to recommend an installer in your area.

I would be delighted to receive your order.

I wish for each of you a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year. Celebrate safely!

[Guest Kingsley]

Tempest6cyl - I have sent you a PM on a slightly off the subject matter, i.e,, ASC v. AHA and the name Anthony Higginbotton or "ttin".

Regards.

[padgett]

And I know both of the other two people with OHC-6 Tempests 8*)

[Guest Kingsley]

Something is amiss - every top that I and my friends have purchased from Mr. Rukavina were E-Z on tops as reflected on the tops and the packing list. Paid the same thing as is now quoted - if there is a better top available, were we misled or taken advantage of? Contrary to the three month delivery on the E-Z on top experienced by a lot of folks, we offer normal two week delivery upon receipt of order and you do not need to remit full in advance - $250 will get your order underway.

[reattadudes]

before I get started, let me state that this will be absolutely the final comment from me on this good but suddenly turned personal subject.

I've been in sales since I was 18, with almost all of that sales experience involved with cars in some way or another. I've worked for myself since 1979.

I started with a mobile auto detail business, the very first in Southern California. lots of brick-and-mortar detail shops told me they were "going to put me out of business". when I sold the business in 1983, I had over 3,000 customers I had acquired myself, one at a time.

I then owned a new car dealership for ten years, also in Southern California. when I took over, they were selling 12 cars a month, both new and used. when I sold the franchise back to the manufacturer in 1993 (the city was taking the property for urban renewal, and due to manufacturer rules on distance to the next dealer, we couldn't move) we were selling 120 new cars a month, and 50 used cars. each new customer was earned one at a time.

a livery (car service) business followed here in Arizona. like everything else I do, this was different. almost all other livery companies use black Lincoln Town Cars; we used white diamond Cadillac deVilles. if you've ever used a car service before, you're aware that most drivers are on the sloppy-looking side. not with us. all of our drivers wore tuxedos (both male and female), and were as immaculately attired as our cars were spotless. anyone getting a ride in one of our cars in the morning was treated to Krispy Kreme doughnuts and Starbuck's coffee in a china cup at no additional charge. of course, many competitors laughed at our cars and perfectly attired drivers, and predicted our "early demise".

a standing joke in the livery business is every new company starts with customers stolen from the company you used to work for. my business partner and I were adamant that we would never do this, and earned our customers one at a time, from cold calls we made all over the state during the slow summer season. we starved to death that first summer, but our efforts paid off when fall came.

where drivers at other companies were busy chasing $50 rides, our drivers were booked on $1,000+ trips that took them all over the state and beyond. there are many people out there (especially Europeans) who are used to booking a car and driver for a week or more. we thrived. we sold our company in 2001 to an international livery company.

that brings me to buickreattaparts.com. the first day of business (March 11, 2001) I had six customers by the end of the day. by the way, I still have five of those six customers; the sixth wrecked his car. as I write this, I just took an order from a new customer, #5602. over 4,000 of those customer numbers are still active, with many of the balance changing to names of new owners when cars were sold. again, a business built over time, one customer at a time.

and finally to the subject at hand, convertible tops. if anyone would like to be the "Reatta convertible top king", I say please have at it. after selling hundreds of tops, I've seen many things. are there sometimes delays? you bet. I'm never a person who will give the standard "black/white/tan" answer, instead encouraging you to consider over 80 other choices. sometimes some of those other choices might be on back order (the white cloth has been especially troublesome), but most folks don't mind waiting for their one-of-a-kind top. I base my top experience on my own experience over the past ten years, not on what a distributor has told me in a best-case scenario.

I believe in constantly pushing the envelope. we now have color-keyed headliners, which are NOT offered by our top supplier. they eliminate the "cave" look inside. Reattas were originally supposed to come with color-keyed headliners, but were eliminated as a cost-cutting measure. GM lost over $3,000 on every Reatta convertible it sold.

I'm also not going to get in a pissing match over price. I have a very anal-retentive accountant, and I pay Arizona sales tax on every top I sell, at a rate of 9.3%. states do not look fondly on someone buying something at wholesale and selling to a retail buyer without anyone paying any tax, whether sold over the internet or not....and they are watching.

what's perhaps the most humorous is the argument here involves selling a $650-$900 item pretty much at cost, with no profit whatsoever. anyone out there going to work and not getting paid?

rule #1 in a quality sale is to have no need to speak badly of your competition, instead only offering reasons why someone should buy from you. I live by that rule every day, always taking the high road.

the old saying about "it doesn't matter what they say about you, as long as they are talking about you" certainly holds true. since this thread began over three weeks ago, we've sold 27 tops. to those 27 customers, both old and new, I say thank you.

subject closed.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited January 22, 2011 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[Guest Kingsley]

The previous poster, Reattadudes has covered the plus side of his activities well and no one has criticized his products. He sells quality products to everyone who can afford his pricing. A record of some 328 tops since 2001 over some 10 years or so is outstanding even though he has had little competition but 27 tops in a short period of time is really great. The question of quality has been that of Reattadudes downgrading the competitive top but let's face it, facts are facts.

At this point, this matter becomes one of business ethics and customer service and although he has has indicated that he will not respond further, I would think he would like to make one further response to this post and should feel it incumbent to do so.

Do you have two levels of service? I, and many others, have paid you same $889.00 for a top and received the E-Z On top and I am not aware of anything less than full satisfaction. For the same price, you are offering to others a top you clam to be superior.

I sell top quality products at reasonable prices to any and all. It is my intention to continue doing so with all of my products - the sun visor clips, my two outstanding models of crank arms together with E-Z On tops and headliners supplied by my distributor who is one of the largest mporters and suppiers of automotive fabrics and well versed in convertible top materials and top/headliner fabrication.

Quality products and top level customer service and ethics are my creed.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Rawja
libelous (see edit history)

[Guest Kingsley]

This post is made for the benefit of all who have been following this thread and who may be interested in buying a top other than E-Z On that I sell.

In post No. 9 above, there was a statement "We don't charges sales tax" however in a subsequent post there was mention of an accountant and a statement that "we pay tax on every shipment". That part has not been apparently edited out.

I am sure that there are folks who watch pricing closely and I would like to purchase a top (not the E-Z on for which I paid $889 several years ago - your prices have indeed not changed) for the sake of comparison but I would ask, in view of the variance in initial statement and the edited out post, whether sales tax is included (absorbed) in the $889 figure or is billed separately.

Thanks.

[Guest Kingsley]

Reattadudes - I am well aware of retail/wholesale selling as I have probably sold more in terms dollars that you have in quite a few less years. Prior to getting into the Reatta field, I exported auto parts for the Mitsubishi assembly plant in Venezuela as well as used medical equipment - $500,000 machines. I was just conerned when you edited your post and the scenario changed.

I am perfectly happy with my prices as they are - perhaps you are paying too much for yours.

Rather than expound on your virtues, I would much prefer that you answer the question as to why I and others paid the same price as you now sell - $889 and received a top that you apparently were quite willing to sell - the EZ-On and praised it quite well. What gives? Just answer that, please and we can stop all of the long diatribes.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Rawja
libelous (see edit history)

[Rawja]

Oy Vey!

Gentlemen-

This is becoming especially counter-productive and I cannot see what value this endless back and forth adds to this forum or your respective businesses.

As someone who is aware of the facts of the "three month top" delivery situation from a few years ago I can report that it was resolved to the satisfaction of all parties.

Mike has invited whoever that wants to buy a top from Kingsley to do so.

I don't see what else there is to discuss.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Rawja (see edit history)